- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Bless you too RR,
But what about THE ADVERSARY? Would Adam have sinned without his encouragement? The pharisees seemed to have gone beyond simplicity into scruples and Self perfectionism and self deceit and pride. Would they have done that without Satan's help?Yes dear brother Is 1.18.
You were asked to express your views and then scolded by many for doing so. This is not a 'church' where all agree on doctrines. This is a forum for mutual learning and teaching where you should, at least, be listened to even if your opinions continue to differ with what most here agree is truth. Don't withdraw yourself as we are all on a path of discovery and it took me 20 years to clarify these issues. You help us also improve our depth of knowledge and as time goes on, so long as we don't reject one another, the church will be made stronger by us all. Continue to search the scriptures and discard the inflence of men and the Spirit will guide you to the full truth-“that they may be one as you and I are one”Hi,
Eph 2.11f
“You men of gentile stock-called “uncircumcised ” by those who, in virtue of a hand executed rite on their flesh, call themselves “circumcised” -remember that, in former times, you had no part in Christ and were excluded from the community of Israel. You were strangers to the covenant and it's promise:you were without hope and without God in the world. But now IN CHRIST JESUS you who were once far off have been brought near through the blood of Christ. It is he who is our peace, and who made the two of us one by breaking down the barrier of hostility that kept us apart.
IN his own flesh he abolished the law with it's commands and precepts…”
The law is not abolished but Jesus has completely fulfilled it and those who are IN him enjoy the freedom that comes from that complete victory. We who are IN Jesus ARE saved.
Paul said in Phil 3.8
” For his sake I have forfeited everything:I have accounted all else as rubbish so that Christ may be my wealth and I may be IN him, not having any justice of my own based on observance of the Law. The justice I have is that which comes from faith in Christ.”Of course if, as a gentile, you have not yet been born again by water and the Spirit, into him you are reliant on God's mercy alone. You only have the law to rely on if you are a true faithful jew and obedient to all those commands and precepts.
Outside of the salvation of Jesus your plight is truly desperate. Your only hope is that your godfearing life shows that you have the law as the basis of your conscience or you have helped God's people in some way showing your heart is for God.
“If today you hear His voice harden not your heart.”
Hi Nick,
I agree with what you say, but I am not so sure about grace being needed due to the piling up of mens laws. I realise that you pose this as a question only and that it is not necessarily your view. But I offer my take on it.
Yes I think that those who sat in the seat of Moses added in weighty laws that were hard to bear. But the law itself doesn't provide salvation as RR says. I think the Law promises it. So the promise would come regardless if this happened or not. As it is written:
Also we shouldn't set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.
My understanding (I am open to correction) is that the Pharisees kept the letter of the Law but not the spirit of the Law. They tithed and did other requirements, but they lacked in justice, compassion and love. In the letter they tithed, in the spirit they robbed widows.
The Law if it is doing its job should lead us to grace. If we have no grace, then we do not understand the law and it's purpose. This is where the Pharisees failed.
Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.Matthew 23:14
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.It also says somewhere (I cannot find it) “If the Pharisees really knew what the Law was about, they would have recognised Christ”.
Then we have those who Paul rebuked because they started off in grace and then went back to the law. I think the point of all this is that the law is of God and the law condemns us because we cannot keep the whole Law. But grace is greater than the law in the sense that aerodynamics is greater than gravity. Aerodynamics doesn't destroy gravity, it superceeds it. I think that the NT teaches us that grace superceeds the law and what is required of us now is to not keep the letter of the Law as Christ did that for us, but that we live in the spirit of the Law which is love, grace, mercy and justice. For if we do such things, then we fulfill the law anyway.
Jesus ministry was not one of keeping the letter of the law although he obviously did that, but it was mercy, grace and forgiveness that he gave us. Also to the Gentile believers, James gave the following requirements from the Law:
Acts 15:19-20
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.So I think the spirit of the Law is more important than the letter. Why? Because the Pharisees righteousness was not enough for them to escape the judment of hell fire, even though they kept the letter of the law. Yet those who are shown mercy will in turn be shown mercy.
2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.I think it is summed up in the next verses:
Mark 12:28-32
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.More reading:
https://heavennet.net/writings/grace-vs-law.htmThanks t8,
Yes I agree.
The essence of the law is the Ten commandments.These are restrictions and boundaries of behaviours using the words like “shall” and “shall not”. But they have a deeper essence that Jesus revealed.Jesus condensed them into two commandments-Love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. These show the true meaning of these commands. Love.
God is love.
The pharisees missed the deeper essence and so missed the message contained in the Law. Jesus confirmed they should tithe in mint and herbs. Was that because of conscience? In other words since they had come to believe that God required this level of obedience thus it became law for them? But if others followed the law of love because they had discovered the real meaning of the law was that sufficient for them? Or did those tithing laws apply to all the jews as the pharisees had the authority to say so
The parable of the 2 sons in Mt 21 28 surely is of the jew and the gentile. The gentile refused point blank but came to his senses and obeyed but the chosen people, or their leaders, lied and disobeyed?
The next parable in Mt 21.33f is that of the tenants of the vineyard and is very important as it is repeated in Lk and Mk.
It describes a situation of utter rebellion by the tenants[?the scribes and pharisees in charge of the jewish faith?] against the owner of the vineyard[God]
This was very serious as these tenants are blamed for the murder of the prophets and of Jesus-the son of the owner. It says that this was a deliberate act to take total control away from the owner and they knew what they were doing. It says that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from these tenants.
I suggest only Satan could have inspired such activity just as he inspired Herod to try to kill Jesus as a baby.Yes true,
Satan is the god of this age. He is also the Father of lies. All sin is directly or indirectly attributed to him.
That is maybe why it says:
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Hi,
Before the Law [of sin and death] was given to Moses men were under conscience. Gentiles without the Law also are under conscience as Romans 1.14f explains.
Now that Jesus has perfectly fulfilled the Law, those born into him are once again not under the Law[Lk16.16] but under the Law of Christ and conscience again[Rom 14 and 1 Cor 9]So the Law of Christ is following Christ and his teachings.That is imutable.
What about conscience? It is based on knowledge of good and evil from the Garden of Eden. So an uneducated or weak or seared conscience can cause us problems. It can cause scruples whereby we feel accused about trivia or we can cause ourselves grief by excessive use of our new freedom.
So what are we to do?
Study the word.
Gain knowledge to educate our conscience.
Listen to the Spirit of God and learn.Seek and you will find ,ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened unto you.
Walk while the light is with you. Unless you walk you will not learn to hear the gentle directing voice.Hi Shakai 7,
Replying to your post in the Enoch forum.The Spirit has become the power at work in us “to will and to do” the Will of God. And that will encompasses obedience to the Commandments of the OT and the Law of Christ. Instead of needing to strive in our own strength to obey the commandments and being found to be failures we have been born into a new Covenant. The Old Covenant was unable to save us but we can be born into Jesus who has already perfectly fulfilled it!
Many people get confused by the rich young man and the lawyer asking Jesus “what he must do to inherit the Kingdom?” He is asking what must one do under the old covenant. The reply Jesus gives is totally appropriate to that question-“obey the Commandments”. Of course he makes plain that obedience must be perfect which will cause most to stumble.
But we do not ask what we must DO as it has been done. We do not “inherit the kingdom” as the Jews are promised in the OT. Jesus has inherited it for us gentile dogs and we are in him enjoying all those advantages.
So putting that aside let us return to the work of the Spirit in the saved. We cannot do two things-submit to the work of the Spirit and work to try to save again our already saved lives in Christ! Galatians offers the option of the Law or the Spirit ruling in us and there is no contest.It says in Gal 5 .25
” Since we live by the Spirit let us follow ths Spirit's lead” because
” The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patient endurance, kindness, generosity, faith, mildness and chastity. Against these THERE IS NO LAW”
I think you would agree that these graces enable us to fulfill the law of love to all men? They certainly fulfill the demand to treat others as you would be treated?So where does that leave the OT LAW
Rom 14.8f
” Owe no debt to anyone except the debt that binds us to love one another. He that loves his neighbour has fulfilled the Law. The commandments
' You shall not commit adultery'
' You shall not murder'
' You shall not steal'
' You shall not covet'
and any other commandment there may be are all summed up in this
'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'
Love never wrongs the neighbour, hence love is the fulfill ment of THE LAW “You may ask what has happened to the first commandment.? In Jesus death that is fulfilled perfectly and as we walk in submission to him we obey it too.
Don't get me wrong . The Law has not gone-not a jot or tittle-and we must respect it. And it remains for us to measure whether the Spirit in us really is the Holy Spirit by how we act-good or bad.
I will look again at your post but that is what I see so far.
Do you get my drift?cont.
Sorry but I cannot agree with your assertion that all are under the Old Law. The Law was given to the Jews only. It is the Old Covenant made with the Jews and circumcision was a sign of that agreement.Other outside of that agreement are gentile 'dogs' with no relationship to God at all and no promises to rely on. Of course they are under conscience as the Jews were before the Law was given and Romans 2 shows us that if their behaviour showed their consciences were in line with the Law the were acceptable to God too.
Nowhere in the Word does it say that those who live lives that mirror the demands of the Law are disqualified. As I have shown the Spirit will lead to lawlike behaviour though there is a surprising omission of the Sabbath command in all the times the law is discussed by Jesus and Paul and others in the NT.
As I said Paul became as a Jew to save Jews. His decisions were guided by the Spirit of freedom. ” Where the Spirit is there is freedom” [2 cor 3.15] He was able to compromise and accept what was not definitely abhorent as he was living under the freedom of the NTand the only reason not to was to upset weak consciences.
Are you with me so far?
cont,
Those who are saved and no longer under the Old Law are not LAWLESS. They are now under the Law of Christ.
Jesus said
” A New Commandment I give you. Love one another as I have loved you”
1Cor 9.21 ” To those not subject to the Law I become like one not subject to it [not that I am free from the Law of God for I am subject to the LAW OF CHRIST] that I might win those not subject to the law.”
Gal 6.2″ Help carry one another's burdens ; in that way you will fulfill the LAW OF CHRIST”Rom 4.14
“If only those who observe the LAW are heirs, then faith becomes an empty word and the promise loses it's meaning.Indeed the LAW serves only to bring down wrath , for where there is no LAW there is no trangression”That is why 1 Jn 3.5 says ” You know that the reason he revealed himself was to take away sins; in him there is nothing sinful. The man who remains in him does not sin “
It doesn't say cannot sin but does not. Sin is not imputed by the old Law in Jesus. And sin no longer results in death as we have an advocate before the Father.
OK?
cont
I Cor 5.7 says ” clean out the old leaven”
Though we are a new creation in Christ the battle is not over but just beginning for us.
The Jews were given the promised land. But did they own it immediately? No they had to fight for every inch and so it is within our soul. It has to be won over to the ways of the Spirit. Habits of thought and action have to be examined and brought into order useful to our new owner.
Light has to be brought into every room of our house and we have to open those doors to let the light in. The Spirit does not rule where we still control but why would we fight against that rule? There is safety in submission to God.The man who would save his own life will lose it.
Hello Nick,
We agree more than you might think. I have not said that we are under the OT Law, we have been freed by the blood of Messiah. What you said is true, if we are led by his Spirit He will lead us into obedience.That is exactly right, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law.
If we submit to Messiah, and are led by His Spirit, we are not under the Law. There is no law written against these things, so you will uphold the Law as lead by His Spirit.
But if you are led by the sinfull nature, as Gal. 5:19, you will be condemed by the Law.
If we are led by His Spirit, His Law is written on our hearts and we fulfill it's requirments. But if we
turn back to our old ways as before we believed, then we place ourselves back under the Law.Matt. 22:34- When asked which is the greatest commandment in the Torah, Yahshua replied,
“Love the Lord Elohim with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and the greatest commandment. And the second is like it; love your neighbor as yourself. All the Torah and the prophets hang on these two commandments.”These are also quoted from the Torah, the first from Duet.6:5, which by doing so, you are keeping the first four of the commandments.
The second comes from Lev.19:18, in doing this one you will keep the last six of the commandments.
I think we are pretty much in agreement on this.However, on the Sabbath, we disagree. Elohim sanctified the Sabbath day from the creation and made it holy. The Sabbath is a prophetic picture on Yahshua's thousand year reign. It has not been fulfilled yet. It was kept throughout the NT, it was a sign between Elohim and Israel forever. The New Covenant does not change forever. Forever is forever. The Sabbath is a distinguishing sign between Elohim and His people.
In studying so called “church” history I have found that the seventh day Sabbath was kept by the early followers, along with Israel's Feast. Non-Jewish believers who came out of pagan backrounds began to mix pagan traditions and customs into the true religion, and they attempted to replace the Hebrew roots with their own. As these former pagan believers began to out-number the Jewish believers they gained more control. Peter speaks of it's beginnings in some of his writings. As we come to the third century we find Rome taking control and outlawing everything of Hebrew origin. At first there was a struggle between the Hebrew believers and the ex-pagan gentile believers. The Hebrew followers were far fewer and they lost the struggle. The seventh day Sabbath of Yahweh was replaced by the first day sun-god sabbath Sunday and the people were ordered not to Judiaze. All the Hebrew writings of the scriptures were destroyed and anything Jewish was purged out of this system. Everything from the names, holy days, Sabbaths and replaced with pagan substitutes. Here the apostacy began that became the Catholic Church, with it's saint worship and Mary worship and SUNday sabbath. From this apostate system all other christian denominations have sprung, identified by their rejection of Elohim's eternal sign, the seventh day Sabbath.
In one of your post you commented, are we supposed to go to a synagogue on Saturday? There are many groups who have come to understand the seventh day Sabbath, Seventh Day Adventist, Messianic Jews, Church of God, Messianic Israel and other so called gentile churches.
So it is not such a strange thing for the many who observe Yahweh's Sabbath.Hebrews 3:16-.. “Who are they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moshe led out of Egypt? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not those who sinned whose bodies fell in the desert?
And to whom did Elohim swear that they would never enter His rest, if not those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter because of their disbelief.
Therefore since the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.”4:3 “Now we who have believed enter that rest just as Elohim has said, So I declared on oath in My anger they shall never enter My rest. And yet His work has been finished since the foundation of the world. For somewhere it has been spoken about the seventh day in these words; And on the seventh day Elohim rested from all His work. And again the passage above says, they shall never enter My rest.
It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later He spoke through David as was said before: Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.
For if Joshua had given them rest, Elohim would not have spoken about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of Elohim; for anyone who enters Elohim's rest also rest from his own work, just as Elohim did from His. Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”I don't observe His Sabbath to be saved, but because He has saved me, I observe His Sabbath.
Shalom
Hi Shakai 7,
Yes there is much we agree on but alas some disagreement too.Yes the old covenant is with Israel forever.
We are not Israel. We are not the chosen people but the elect.
We are gentiles. We have never been under the Law.
We are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel.[Rom 11.17] To become Jewish we would have to be circumcised at least.The Word does not say that if we are born again of the Spirit but not lead by the Spirit we go back under the Law. How can one be unborn again? God is not into flip-flops. Entering the family of God is eternal unless we reject Jesus[2 Tim 2.11f].
Acts 20.7
” On the first day of the week when we gathered for the breaking of bread, Paul preached to them”
The first day is Sunday. The reason the day was chosen was maybe not to establish a firm tradition but because they were in the Synagogue on the Saturday! The point is that God does not seem to have strong feelings on this issue.Yes the Sabbath Rest of Heb 4 is the biggest deal in the NT-The millenial Reign of Jesus. But the Sabbath points to it, it does not point to the sabbath. Obedience to rules such as the sabbath observation does not gain entry but being reborn into the Son of God. Being in the first resurrection is the important issue for that opens the reign of Jesus. That opportunity will not last forever .
Hi,
In the salvation picture painted in Revelation only 144,000 of the Israelites are named as saved. The are the first fruits with 12,000 from each tribe and they serve God's throne. Even they have the name of the Father and the Lamb on their foreheads suggesting they must have repented and accepted Jesus.
I know in Zech 12.10f it say the Holy Spirit is poured out on the Jews so they repent and mourn for the “one they have pierced” and 13.1 suggests they will receive baptism into him.
What I am concerned about is the apparently small number of 144,000. I realise that some will have come into the kingdom prior to that time and will be among those wearing white in Rev 7.
The other possibility is that this is an allegorical number.Either way it seems the way of Jesus is more secure.
Who can help here?Hello Nick,
Acts 20:7, is an example of church interpretation from a pagan-rooted gentile backround. The problem with the interpretation is that the Jews did not reckon time as we do. Their day started at sunset, and ended at the next sunset. The “first day of the week”, started on our Saturday evening as the sun went down.
It is still common for Messianic congregations to remain until the end of the Sabbath and eat oneg together.
On the first day of the week they came together to break bread. This was on our Saturday evening, but by Jewish reckonning, it was the start of the first day of the week. Paul intended on leaving the next day. He talked until midnight, and after the window accident, he talked on until morning. This was Sunday morning, the day he intending on leaving.
“We are not Israel, we are not the chosen, but the elect.”
“chosen” Strongs 1588….selected
“elect” Strongs 1588….selected They are both the same word in Greek.I have discussed this topic under another post, (Who is Israel). I will just say a few words on it here.
A mistake that Christianity and the church has made is that the OT is for the Jews and the NT is for the church. The truth is that the NT can not be fully understood apart from the OT. The history of the NT is found in the OT, it is a continuing story of fulfillment, without pause, into the NT and on to this day.
Christianity tries to seperate the two by bringing the OT to an end with the Jews, and the NT being for the church. In most churches little time is spent studying the OT. All the books of prophecy in the OT that are written about Israel, are by the church said tho speak of the church. How is it that Elohim, dealing with the nation of Israel, through His prophets, inform the people of Israel about future events that will happen, then the church lays claim to these prophecies as if they are their own?
When reading the OT and continuing into the NT as one fluid story, it is clear to whom these prophecies are meant.Elohim has never made a covenant directly with the gentiles. His covenants have been made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. True gentiles come in through their covenant.
Romans 9:4 “the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs is the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the Torah, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah;”
When the prophecies of the OT, written to the house of Israel are followed into the NT writings, their fulfillment becomes clear.
The northern kingdom of the house of Israel, Ephraim, was scattered among the nations due to their breaking of the covenant, they would be seperated from Elohim,would lose their identy and become, as the gentiles in which they were assimilated into. The house of Judah would remain in Jerusalem to guard over the words of Elohim.
In Eze. 34: Elohim's sheep are scattered among the nations. Yahweh is angered by the hired shepherds who have not taken care of His flock. He says that He, Himself will gather His sheep from everywhere they have been scattered and He will care for them. 34:30-31 Yahweh says that His sheep are His people, Israel.
These prophecies continue into Eze. 37:, speaking of gathering both houses of Israel and making them into one nation. He will make an everlasting covenant with them and place His sanctuary among them forever.
In John 10, Yahshua, teaching from Eze.34 and 37, says that He is that “good sherpherd”
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (He is speaking directly to the Jews, representing one flock.) 16. “I have other sheep that are not of this pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.”
Who are the sheep, “not of this pen”, who listened to His voice? Scripture interprets scripture, they are the scattered lost sheep of the house of Israel, spoken of in Eze. 34, being called back from among the gentiles.
Caiaphas speaking to the Sanhedrin;John 11:50 “You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than for the whole nation perish.
He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophecised that Yahshua would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of Elohim, to bring them together and make them one.”“I lay down My life for the sheep.” “and there will be one flock and one shepherd.”
Yahweh is rebuilding the David's fallen tent.
Acts 15:12 “The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders Elohim had done among the gentiles through them. When he finished, James spoke up; listen to me. Simon has decribed to us how Elohim at first showed His concern by taking from the gentiles a people for Himself. The words from the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent,
It's ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore,
that the remnant of men might seek Yahweh,
and all the gentile that bear My name, says Yahweh,
Who does these things that have been known for ages.”vs.19.”It is my judgement, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for gentiles turning to Yahweh.”
Speaking here of what Elohim, “has done among the gentiles”, James says, “the words of the prophets are in agreement with this”, that Elohim, “taking from the gentiles a people for Himself”,
is fulfilling the restoration of David's fallen tent. The people that He is, “taking from the gentiles”, are the decendants of David's former tent.This is quoted from, Amos 9:11, There the Prophet is speaking of the restoration of Israel.
It is a continuing story from the OT to the NT. He prophecies in the OT and fulfills it in the NT.
The covenants were made with Israel and Israel is scattered among the gentiles, and the native gentiles are blessed by this. They too can come in through Elohim's covenant with Israel.
Hebrews 8:6 “But the ministry Yahshua has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But Elohim found fault with the people and said;”“The time is coming declares Yahweh,
when I will make a new covenant with house of Israel and the House Judah,”vs.10. “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after that time,
I will put My Laws in their minds and write them in their hearts,
I will be their Elohim and they will be My people.”This is quoted from Jere. 31:31, speaking of the restoration of Israel. Applying this scripture to another “entity” is ignoring the OT prophetic writings.
These “sheep”, being called out from among the gentiles, to rebuild David's fallen tent, are the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Being so, they have an eternal covenant with Elohim to observe His Sabbaths.
Maybe you are not, but I feel that I am one of these lost sheep.Shalom
“
Hi Shakai 7,
Those are interesting insights and I have gained from listening to you. There is so much that can be learned from jewish culture, teachings and religion.Thank you.I can see how God would want to gather in his exiled people and how some of these would be seen as gentiles having been assimilated into their new culture.
Some questions remain though. We, I am sure, agree that all gentiles are not Jews who were lost in the dispersion. So what of those who are not jewish?
.Do you know that this is exclusive? Does scripture specify that these promises only apply to jewish people-are you sure that these are the only sheep of his flock?
.Are all gentlile believers then really Jews who have lost their roots?
.Does that mean that other gentiles cannot be saved?
.Are the wild olive shoots grafted onto the cultured olive tree really cultured olives that have become wild again?The problem is. if this is your premise. that God has said He wants 'all men' to be saved. God is bigger hearted and fairer than that. Cornelius, by your premise, would really have had to have been a jew without knowing it.
Yet God showed Peter 3 times in vision that what he had thought was unclean [the gentiles]was now acceptable in His eyes. Jesus healed the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman despite initially saying she was not entited to that grace.
You may well be partly right but you would have to declare God unfair surely if non jewish Gentiles have no hope of salvation?
Hello Nick,
All people can be saved, anyone who accepts Messiah Yahshua, (Jesus) will be saved. All gentile people are not of Israel, but they are equal to Israel in Messiah. This is how Yaweh has brought salvation to all people, through the dispersion of His chosen people into the world, keeping His promise to Abraham, that his seed would become the fullness of the gentiles and every nation would be blessed through it. Through Israel,s breaking of the covenant and receiving the curse described for breaking it, (Lev.26:35). Yahshua died to pay the price for Israel's sin, so that they and all mankind can come to Yahweh.I am not Jewish. Jews are only from the tribe of Judah. They were not part of the Assyrian captivity.
The northern kingdom was called , Ephraim Israel, these are the tribes that were dispersed at that time. (2 Kings 17:18-19.)I believe, the two pens of sheep are the two nations of Israel, but the sheep consist of people decended from Ephraim and Judah and also non-Israel people who accept Yahshua as savior.
They all gain citizenship in the Commonwealth of Israel, to become one new man,(Eph.2:12-22), by Yahshua's sacrifice, abolishing in His flesh the law and its commandments and regulations. Yahshua freed all people from the curse of the law, that held them, seperation from Yahweh and death.I believe that many gentile believers are really Ephraim Israel, and have lost their roots, but not all.
Peter was a Jew, and lived strickly by the Torah. He looked at all gentiles as unclean. The Jews looked at all gentiles as unclean, even those who were decended from Ephraim Israel. Even if a Jew was to live apart from Torah, that Jew would be as if he were a gentile, unclean. Jews who touched dead bodies would be conidered unclean until they fulfilled the requirement Torah to be clean. Gentiles who did not have the Torah were then always concidered unclean.
Yahweh was showing Peter,that through Yahshua's death' the requirments of Torah have been fulfilled and now gentiles have been made clean, if they have accepted by faith what Yahshua has done.
There was emnity between Jewish Israel and Ephraim Israel from their past division, and Ephraim being cursed and sent away. The Torah taught Jews that all who did not live by Torah were unclean, and that they should not associate with them. Peter was raised as a Jew. It was hard for him to let this go, so Yahweh convinced him.The woman who's daughter was healed by Yahshua. He told her that He came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He did not lie or change his mission. By her faith, she gained her desire, and after His sacrifice gained citizenship in the Commonwealth of Israel.
Just my understanding.
Shalom
Yes S7,
We too are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation ,a people He claims for His own ” as 1 Peter 9 quotes Is 44 and Hosea 1.9 and 2.25. And as Gal 37 says “those who believe are sons of Abraham” Yes many gentiles are returnees from the dispersion but I would have thought most returned since 1948 rather than in the time of Jesus. God is rebuilding His nation for the time of Jacob's trouble and the millenial kingdom.
But we also have to discern between the
Old and New Testaments and the
Old and New Covenants.The Testaments are the written Word, the witness of the interactions between God and man. The Covenants are the agreements and promises between God and Man.
The OT continues into the NT and neither can be understood without the other. The NT is the most recent and adds to the OT so must be the ultimate judge of truth.
The Old Covenant is near obsoletion so the New is different and totally essential. There is no suggestion in the teachings of the NT that the Jews simply maintained their relationship with God by doing nothing.
The fairest aspect was that all have to come under the New Covenant so there is no longer Jew nor Greek. If the Old Covenant was sufficient the the Son of God did not have to come into the world and suffer and die for us.
All had to repent and be born again to become a new creation.You suggest acceptance in faith is sufficient but I am sure you realise I disagree. All have to go through the same 'gate' to partake in the new flock of his sheep in Jn 10.
Do we agree?cont,
In fact Gal 3 tells us that the promises to Abraham are only inherited in Christ so for even the Jews to inherit these promises they too need to be born into Christ.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
