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Quote (Casiphus @ Oct. 21 2005,03:36) Hi Soxan – sorry I haven't answered your question, but hopefully my answer to Nick will help clarify to some extent why I don't agree with the majority of arguments in support of Biblical authority. Hi Nick,
Quote These claims are not shallow historical narratives and opinion but deep and serious statements of the things of God. Do you believe them? I appreciate your fervour on this matter, but perhaps you're reading the Bible with too much of a modern understanding.
In the ancient world, the majority of terms that we translate as “word” refer to “the creative word”, which was a combination of intent and speech (or sometimes actions). So Hebrew (and other) literature abounds in blessings and cursings whose power was in the “speaking forth” (as well as prophetic actions) which “created” life or death. Even from the beginning – God created through the power of speech or intent (God said, “Let there be light”).
Without belaboring the issue: in the Memphite creation myth Ptah “conceived a thought within his heart [mind], and with his tongue made speech, and through the the heart and the tongue he created.” In the Mesopotamian epic of Gilgamesh, Enkidu lays a curse on the woman who brought him from the wilds to Uruk, but when he is reasoned with by Enki, changes his curse to a blessing.
The point of all this is to show how important the “creative power” of speech was to the ancient world – the same ideas can be seen in Celtic and African traditions, and had a great influence on Greek philosophy.
This concept, I think, can be seen at the beginning of John's gospel, where he writes, “In the beginning was the Word [logos – creative power]… He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” In other words, John is calling Jesus the “creative power” through which all things were made.
So, when the Bible says the “Word” (as opposed to the “scriptures” or the “writings” or the “law”), try using this definition, and I think you'll find that the meaning changes altogether. I'm pretty sure that if you look at the Greek and Hebrew versions, you'll find that the Bible does distinguish between “words” (whether speech or intent) and “writings”.
Sorry about the length of this post.
Hi casiphus,
So you relate to scripture in the same way as to pagan myths and legends? Do they all have equal validity to you then? If not what distinguishes the bible teachings and what use are they to you now or in the future?Hi Nick,
Quote So you relate to scripture in the same way as to pagan myths and legends? Do they all have equal validity to you then? If not what distinguishes the bible teachings and what use are they to you now or in the future? You have completely misunderstood what I wrote. My references weren't about the validity of Near East myths, but the conceptual differences between the ancient and modern worlds, and the effect these have on language.
Please read again what I wrote.
Hi Soxan,
Quote No! If not scripture, then what do you base your salvation on? Can you think of a scripture that says we have salvation through anything but Jesus?
The question then would be; which Jesus? The Jesus of scripture or the Jesus of your own personel mind set, who ever you want Him to be?
Your another slippery fellow, Cas. Do you want to deal with the matter at hand or are you content on playing titally winks?
Does the tree in the forest have to make a sound? c`mon, please!
Hi Soxan,
My last comment was relating to this question:
Quote The question then would be; which Jesus? The Jesus of scripture or the Jesus of your own personel mind set, who ever you want Him to be?
I don't see that the Jesus of the Bible, and the Jesus of a person's minset are mutually exclusive. Take the Trinity debate for instance. All those that believe in the Trinity, believe that the scripture justifies their belief, as do all that don't believe in the Trinity.I'm not trying to be contrary, Soxan, so perhaps you can treat me with the same respect that I treat you?
Respect? Your not respecting my simple questions! Goodbye! Play with somebody else, i`m jumping of the merry- go- round!
If the tree falls on a squirel, it most definitely makes a sound. Kind of a sad shreeky sound. I hope this helps Soxon.
david
Quote Respect? Your not respecting my simple questions! Goodbye! Play with somebody else, i`m jumping of the merry- go- round! Sounds Logical again Captain. Beam him up Scotty.
Hi,
All of man's response to the call of God in the Old and New Covenants is because of grace.Faith is of grace.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.Repentance is of grace.
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.Hi,
If we strive to obey the law of the Israelites we cut ourselves off from the grace of Christ given to lead and empower us.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2008,08:55) Hi,
If we strive to obey the law of the Israelites we cut ourselves off from the grace of Christ given to lead and empower us.
Hi Nick:And so, if I give a tenth of my income so that the gospel can go forth into all of the world or to help those who are in need out of my love for God and for humanity, and/or if I rest from my work one day a week, obeying the Sabbath principle, I cut myself off from grace? Is that what you are saying?
Hi 94,
If God has led you to do these things then follow your conscience.
If you do them to fulfill the OT law it is another matter.
Gal 4
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2008,11:28) Hi 94,
If God has led you to do these things then follow your conscience.
If you do them to fulfill the OT law it is another matter.
Gal 4
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Suppose if I don't Kill, Steal, or commit Adultery. Have I fallen from grace?Hi 94,
God does not want us focussed on self effort.
Self effort is of anxiety and self doubt.
We cannot now further impress Him.
He does not need us to strive.We must seek and then rest in his will.
Heb4
Ps46Hi Nick:
Quote Rom 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the lawQuote Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousnessQuote 1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Quote 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.Quote 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.God Bless
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