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Casiphus,
You seem to have a great talent for speaking a lot of wonderful sounding words without actually answering any questions. Let me try this again:
When you read scripture, do you see it as the Truth, or do you see it as a collection of truisms that require further development?
(By the way, your answer to my last question seemed like mere diversion. You say the real question is a “what”, not a “who”. But, ultimately, someone has to make a decision as to “what constitutes good fruit”, and I suspect that that person ends up being you, and not the Author of scripture.)
Nick,
I would really appreciate it if you actually answered the question that I asked. Otherwise, there is no point in trying to have a dialogue. Here it is again:
Are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?
It's a “yes” or “no” question, so I would appreciate it if you answered accordingly. I am trying to figure out if this is what you mean when you say:
“And the Spirit can illuminate more than just the words.”
Yes or no?
Hi One Spirit,
The Spirit can help read words and faces, attitudes and motives. The Spirit can give us the keywords to open the heart. The Spirit provides opportunity for the work of God. The Spirit can reveal when a man's convictions are Spiritual or just intellectual.Hi One Spirit,
Having said that I admit I am unable to fully explain how the Spirit works. I am open to judgement that I am deceived too and some have made such comments. My seeking is for the will of YHWH and if I am not a plant planted but a weed then I will be pulled out. But it is true that I am reminded of John 3.8
” the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from, and where it is going;so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”Hi Nick,
Are you saying that Luke was a witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, or do you mean “witness” in a different sense?
On this point, though, I think you'll find that the repetition is due to the fact that they both relied on the same written source (the so-named “Q”). Even the “gnostic” Gospel of Thomas uses many of these same sayings of Jesus – though adds others from Greek and Jewish philosophy.
Quote I believe this is what our God wants us to do. We are to “search the scriptures ” ouselves because that is where truth is to be found, and put our trust in the confirmed Word testing the teachings of men against it. Oh Nick – doesn't that verse actually go, “You search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These testify about me [Jesus], yet you refuse to come to me”? Was it the people who diligently searched the scriptures that came to Jesus, or was it the down and out, the poor and illiterate who had no access to the scriptures except in the synagogue readings, and whose lives were anythink but perfect, but whose hearts were receptive?
Nick, I think you're cool! And I can see that you care about defending the faith. But if the Bible is the direct word of God, let God defend it – Jesus didn't die for the Bible, he died for humanity, so surely our best bet is to defend and build up the ones for whom he died? And people aren't generally receptive to, “The Bible says,” however, they're amazingly receptive to compassion, and to feeling that they aren't being judged.
Hi One Spirit,
I hate to be such a trial for you, but indeed I do try to answer your questions 😉
Quote When you read scripture, do you see it as the Truth, or do you see it as a collection of truisms that require further development? Neither really. I see it as the revelations of different people about God throughout the ages. I don't think that we're any more able to understand the ways, heart and mind of God than any other generation, but I don't think we're any less able either. I just find that a Bible is best approach restricts us – even from the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Quote By the way, your answer to my last question seemed like mere diversion. You say the real question is a “what”, not a “who”. But, ultimately, someone has to make a decision as to “what constitutes good fruit”, and I suspect that that person ends up being you, and not the Author of scripture. Again, I hate to be a trial to you, however I don't think God will judge us according to whether we obeyed the Bible letter for letter, but on the condition of our hearts. That said, I do believe that if our hearts are in order, our lives will be a reflection (however dim) of Jesus.
Actions have consequences, and we can see that some of those consequences build people up, restore relationships, and promote well-being, while others have the opposite effect. Surely God has given us the wisdom to learn which fruit is good, and which is bad, or will do so if we are open and receptive to his Spirit?
Quote (Casiphus @ Oct. 16 2005,00:52) Hi Nick, Are you saying that Luke was a witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, or do you mean “witness” in a different sense?
On this point, though, I think you'll find that the repetition is due to the fact that they both relied on the same written source (the so-named “Q”). Even the “gnostic” Gospel of Thomas uses many of these same sayings of Jesus – though adds others from Greek and Jewish philosophy.
Quote I believe this is what our God wants us to do. We are to “search the scriptures ” ouselves because that is where truth is to be found, and put our trust in the confirmed Word testing the teachings of men against it. Oh Nick – doesn't that verse actually go, “You search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These testify about me [Jesus], yet you refuse to come to me”? Was it the people who diligently searched the scriptures that came to Jesus, or was it the down and out, the poor and illiterate who had no access to the scriptures except in the synagogue readings, and whose lives were anythink but perfect, but whose hearts were receptive?
Nick, I think you're cool! And I can see that you care about defending the faith. But if the Bible is the direct word of God, let God defend it – Jesus didn't die for the Bible, he died for humanity, so surely our best bet is to defend and build up the ones for whom he died? And people aren't generally receptive to, “The Bible says,” however, they're amazingly receptive to compassion, and to feeling that they aren't being judged.
Hi One Spirit,
I hate to be such a trial for you, but indeed I do try to answer your questions 😉
Quote When you read scripture, do you see it as the Truth, or do you see it as a collection of truisms that require further development? Neither really. I see it as the revelations of different people about God throughout the ages. I don't think that we're any more able to understand the ways, heart and mind of God than any other generation, but I don't think we're any less able either. I just find that a Bible is best approach restricts us – even from the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Quote By the way, your answer to my last question seemed like mere diversion. You say the real question is a “what”, not a “who”. But, ultimately, someone has to make a decision as to “what constitutes good fruit”, and I suspect that that person ends up being you, and not the Author of scripture. Again, I hate to be a trial to you, however I don't think God will judge us according to whether we obeyed the Bible letter for letter, but on the condition of our hearts. That said, I do believe that if our hearts are in order, our lives will be a reflection (however dim) of Jesus.
Actions have consequences, and we can see that some of those consequences build people up, restore relationships, and promote well-being, while others have the opposite effect. Surely God has given us the wisdom to learn which fruit is good, and which is bad, or will do so if we are open and receptive to his Spirit?
Hi,
One of the amazing things about the bible that shows the existence of God is that we pay any attention to the bible at all. Yet every word and comma yields truth and beauty and should be studied. The fact that a doctor and a taxman and a fisherman and Mark could remember such absolute and consistent detail about every word spoken by Christ and his accusers and disciples so many years after the events proves the work of the Spirit.
They were all personal witnesses and their words stand individually as well as collectively. Any suggestion that similarity proves copying is nonsense and denies the work of God. The versions support each other because of the fact they all shared in the spirit of God in my view.
We are not soothsayers. We serve a master and his words are precious to us. We could make folks feel good, and many do, but unless we point them to salvation we only help prepare them for their perishing. Love clubs are fine but they are pointless without truth inspired action results in being reborn into relationship with the Father in the Son.Hi Nick,
Quote One of the amazing things about the bible that shows the existence of God is that we pay any attention to the bible at all. Yet every word and comma yields truth and beauty and should be studied. I think I mentioned this before, but Muslims make exactly the same claim about the Qur'an. All religions have their sacred texts – Buddhists have the Theravada, Mahayana, etc; Hindus have the Veda, Upanishad, Mahabharata, etc; And the idea that God directly inspired writings is not peculiar to monotheistic religions – in fact, the Jews don't seem to have believed in the infallibility of their own sacred texts, as can be evidenced by the various Talmuds. This trend in Western religion could conceivable have begun in Ancient Egypt, with the Hieroglyphs (Greek “sacred pictures”), and I think you know how much Egyptian theology influenced early Christian doctrines, such as the triune God.
Quote The fact that a doctor and a taxman and a fisherman and Mark could remember such absolute and consistent detail about every word spoken by Christ and his accusers and disciples so many years after the events proves the work of the Spirit.
They were all personal witnesses and their words stand individually as well as collectively. Any suggestion that similarity proves copying is nonsense and denies the work of God. The versions support each other because of the fact they all shared in the spirit of God in my view.They might use many of the same sayings, but they put them in different contexts and in different settings. Also, I'm not sure where you get the impression that Luke (or even Mark) was a witness to the events – doesn't he distinguish himself from the eyewitnesses at the beginning of his narrative?
Quote We are not soothsayers. We serve a master and his words are precious to us. We could make folks feel good, and many do, but unless we point them to salvation we only help prepare them for their perishing. Love clubs are fine but they are pointless without truth inspired action results in being reborn into relationship with the Father in the Son. I don't advocate making people feel good, but making them feel accepted. This doesn't mean agreeing with them, or saying, “Whatever you believe is right.” However, it does mean being a witness of what we believe – as John exhorted his brethren, “let us not love in word or tongue, but in deeds and good faith.” It's easy to say, “This is the way,” but how many people can truly say, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ”?
Whatever is true – whether in the Bible or elsewhere – should be able to be lived out, shouldn't it? And if it is true, the consequences of our acts of faith should be positive shouldn't they?
Hi c,
Does the Qur'an predict events in detail 100s of years before the event and they come true in every detail?Hi Nick,
Here are some claims by some Muslims about prophecy in the Qur'an.
Fingerprinting:
Quote “Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21) Establishment of Israel:
Quote And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105) The Suez Canal:
Quote “And when the rivers are made to flow into each other.” (81:7)
“He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other.” (55:20,21)
“And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition.” (25:54)The AIDS epidemic (from the Haditha):
Quote “It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers.”
Then of course there are several prophecy that were fulfilled in the days of Muhammad – which, it could be argued, don't count because they were fulfilled before the assembling of the Qur'anic writings, yet this same argument has been used against many of the prophecies of Isaiah and Daniel.In listing the above “prophecies”, I'm not giving credence to them, but merely suggesting that the same arguments people use in defence of the Bible, are also used in defence of other books – I've also heard Buddhists exuberantly speak of the passage where “Buddha cares for the helpless lamb”, as a testament to his elightenment.
What someone else thinks of as a “proof” often seems hollow or laughable in other people's ears. But if you can show through your actions thr truth of your words, the genuine will believe what you say.
Hi Nick,
You read Isaiah and it seems to you to be the words of God, while the Qur'an lacks substance. But a Muslim reads Isaiah and sees a prophet whose words have been corrupted by the ideas of later scribes, and whose original message is transmitted far more powerfully through the Qur'an. Taste and value are individually defined, which is why the “beauty” or “enlightenment” of a work can't really be used to argue its validity – you just have to believe.
However, in order to convince others, I still think that actions speak far louder than words.
Hi casiphus,
I am speaking of the descriptions of the servant Yeshua[ and all the other detailed prophecies] written 500 years before he lived. That is action that is evidence of God's work.And yet this hasn't convinced generation upon generation of scholarly Jew.
To you they are prophetic utterances concerning Jesus; to the Jew they either foretell the coming Messiah, or (as in the case of Reformed Jews) reflect an eternal spiritual battle between good and evil; to the Muslim they indeed foretell Jesus the Messiah, but to them the Messiah is just another prophet of God. What is evidence to one person, may not mean the same thing (or anything) to another.
Hi casiphus,
So where do you sit on these matters? The fence is not comfortable for long.
Philip was able to show the Eunuch from these words that he must make a commitment in the way of following Jesus. Nothing has changed.ps
Is the veil over your eyes too?
Rom 10.20
” I was found by those who did not seek me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for me”Quote (Casiphus @ Oct. 17 2005,06:15) And yet this hasn't convinced generation upon generation of scholarly Jew. To you they are prophetic utterances concerning Jesus; to the Jew they either foretell the coming Messiah, or (as in the case of Reformed Jews) reflect an eternal spiritual battle between good and evil; to the Muslim they indeed foretell Jesus the Messiah, but to them the Messiah is just another prophet of God. What is evidence to one person, may not mean the same thing (or anything) to another.
Hi Casiphus, hope you are well.
I wouldnt be too surprised that the Jews do not recognise their Messiah – both Jesus and Paul fortold they would be blinded:Luke 19
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.Romans 11
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Also, I think the Bible is peerless with regard to the unambiguity of the prophecies it makes and precision in which they are fulfilled. If you're interested, here is some material for your consideration:
In Christ
Casiphus,
OK. I think that I understand where you are coming from now. Just answer me this:
Do you think that the “Christian bible” holds any more truth than the other “holy books” that you mentioned?
Casiphus is right.
Actions do speak louder than words.
THE HISTORY OF CHRISTENDOM SPEAKS pretty loudly to those with ears. Many turn away from the Bible because they believe Christendom represents the Bible. It does not. People should turn away from Christendom though and those who do not truly follow the Bible.
THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SPEAKS loudly as well. “I do not want to kill you, but if Allah wills it, I will.” These words were spoken to one of my friends who worked with a Muslim.
Has the history of Islam been free from blood? Do the principals of Islam allow that? (Qur’an 2:190, 192-193; 4:75; 22:39–40)While I have spoken with a couple of Muslims at their door, and there are very few in this area, I have never had a muslim come to me to impart to me some important life saving knowledge if they possess such. If they do possess it, then where is the love? If they don't, then what does that tell us?
If it is by actions that a holy book is proved true or false, then I think we should explore in much more detail the history of the Bible and all other holy books of note. I strongly believe based on my research that the Bible stands alone in many many respects.
Casiphus is right though. Where actions speak, words mean little.
david
Hi Is 1:18,
Quote Hi Casiphus, hope you are well.
I wouldnt be too surprised that the Jews do not recognise their Messiah – both Jesus and Paul fortold they would be blinded:I am well, thanks – and you? 😉
I think most Jews see Messiah as a political leader, rather than a spiritual one – and a lot of them probably aren't as eagerly awaiting his coming now that Israel has been reestablished.
Hi One Spirit and Nick,
Quote Do you think that the “Christian bible” holds any more truth than the other “holy books” that you mentioned? Quote So where do you sit on these matters? The fence is not comfortable for long. Well, my motive in reading other “holy books” is not because I'm searching for truth (or ammunition) in them, but because I want to know how other people think – what they believe and why they believe it. Reading these texts and asking questions is the best way I know. However, I do have my own opinions and beliefs, but I don't think any belief can be proved through the pitting of Bible (or other) verses against each other.
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