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Hi c,
So how are you influenced by the Spirit? How is your life changed by your relationship with Christ? When did it begin and how has it progressed?Quote (Casiphus @ Oct. 13 2005,00:22) Quote A man who makes his own law is his own god. Your faith does not rest in anyone, or anything, outside of yourself. As long as that is your conscious decision, go for it. Just don't expect YHWH-fearing people to join you.
Are you God, that you know my heart? Don't you interpret the Bible how you think best, and another person how they think best? If two people disagree on Biblical interpretation does that mean one of them is being his own god? Surely it is God who calls a person, and God that leads them – will you then condemn me because I don't follow you?I don't like to be confronting, but when I read your posts I FEEL as though you have decided that what you think is what all “YHWH-fearing people” think. Are you really in a position to say this?
You are right Casiphus. Only YHWH knows your heart. However, I can read your words. So, if I have misunderstood you, then I will apologize, but the impression you leave with your words does not seem to indicate that I have. Nevertheless, you can resolve this by answering one simple question:
What sources, outside of yourself, inform you as to what is true and what is false? (i.e. If I were to say to you, “Homosexuality is a perfectly healthy, even godly, alternative lifestyle!”, where would you turn to decide if my belief is true or false?)
I stand prepared to apologize if your answer to the above contradicts my earlier assessment of your views.
By the way…
You wrote:
Quote If two people disagree on Biblical interpretation does that mean one of them is being his own god? No. If they both consider scripture a higher authority than their own opinion, than they both still have a god over them, (even if they turn out to be different ones). If, however, one of them says that scripture can not be trusted, and that one must determine what is right and wrong in scriputure for one's self, then that person has placed himself in a higher position of authority than scripture, and can not be overruled by anything but his own conscience. He is his own god.
Yes One Spirit,
And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.
Moral standards can be gleaned from faith in God and evidence of sin in the bible. But good morality saves no one. We can learn from the Law but were never under the Law.
Cornelius was a God fearing and a generous man. But that in itself did not save him but God noticed him, called him and chose him to be saved through the work of Peter. He and his group had the gospel of salvation preached to them and were born again of the Holy Spirit and water.
Nothing has changed since then has it?Nick,
The question was for Casiphus, not for you. You are missing the point as usual. Here it is for you in plain English:
Quote Romans 10:
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “[YHWH], who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.By the way…
You wrote:
Quote And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words. Give me an example of what you mean please.
Hi One Spirit,
These are open forums and anyone can contribute at any time to build up the church.Surely you are aware of the insights given by the Spirit?
Faith comes by hearing, I agree, but faith does not save.Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for
“he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him”[Heb11].
But that is only the first step and unless faith leads to action it is dead and useless faith
“Faith without works is dead”[Jas2]Quote Luke 7:50
Then he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,Faith precedes everything else. It is not just the “first” step; it is the most important step.
Quote 1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.You wrote:
Quote These are open forums and anyone can contribute at any time to build up the church.Surely you are aware of the insights given by the Spirit? I am asking for you to give me an example of what you mean. So often we are talking apples and oranges. (I don't think that I need to remind you about the “evidence of the Spirit” discussion.)
Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 13 2005,21:40) Quote Luke 7:50
Then he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,Faith precedes everything else. It is not just the “first” step; it is the most important step.
Quote 1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.You wrote:
Quote These are open forums and anyone can contribute at any time to build up the church.Surely you are aware of the insights given by the Spirit? I am asking for you to give me an example of what you mean. So often we are talking apples and oranges. (I don't think that I need to remind you about the “evidence of the Spirit” discussion.)
Hi OS,
Luke 7.48f
” And he said to her
'Your sins have been forgiven…….your faith has saved you;go in peace' “
So her salvation was in the forgiving of her sins. Her ACTIONS according to her faith brought her to Jesus and she received the reward.
Nothing has changed, we must repent and be baptised into Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins to be saved.
Indeed the salvation of our souls is the resultant END of our faith through the actions that faith causes in us.Indeed if you have not yet experienced the work of the Spirit then you will not grasp anyone elses experiences either.
Hi One Spirit,
You see at the end of your last post you are restricting us to share only within the constraints your doctrinal stance allows you to accept. But those restraints may be closing the door on you ever knowing or experiencing more that God has to offer all His chidren. Is that wise?” Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom”
Nick,
Faith is confirmed through actions, as you pointed out: “Faith without works is dead.” But, our actions are the result of our faith. If we don't have faith, we won't act!
Are you really trying to say that actions are more important than faith?
Quote You see at the end of your last post you are restricting us to share only within the constraints your doctrinal stance allows you to accept. But those restraints may be closing the door on you ever knowing or experiencing more that God has to offer all His chidren. Is that wise? You misunderstood me. I was not trying to limit your answer. I was just reminding you of another “apples and oranges” moment in our discussions. The reason why I ask you to explain what you mean by “insights of the Spirit” is because there is a strong possibility that we will disagree. Therefore, I am not going to assume your answer. I would like to actually hear it from you. I am geniunely interested in what you meant when you said:
“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”
You and I have a very different outlook on such matters, and I am always interested to see yours. However, if you distrust my motives, than we can just drop it.
Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 13 2005,22:32) Nick, Faith is confirmed through actions, as you pointed out: “Faith without works is dead.” But, our actions are the result of our faith. If we don't have faith, we won't act!
Are you really trying to say that actions are more important than faith?
Quote You see at the end of your last post you are restricting us to share only within the constraints your doctrinal stance allows you to accept. But those restraints may be closing the door on you ever knowing or experiencing more that God has to offer all His chidren. Is that wise? You misunderstood me. I was not trying to limit your answer. I was just reminding you of another “apples and oranges” moment in our discussions. The reason why I ask you to explain what you mean by “insights of the Spirit” is because there is a strong possibility that we will disagree. Therefore, I am not going to assume your answer. I would like to actually hear it from you. I am geniunely interested in what you meant when you said:
“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”
You and I have a very different outlook on such matters, and I am always interested to see yours. However, if you distrust my motives, than we can just drop it.
Hi One Spirit,
Faith in God is the most important first step but useless without action. Action without faith is folly.
“If any man doubts he can expect nothing from the Lord”[James]
The Spirit knows the heart of man and can discern beyond mere words written or spoken. Jesus knew the hearts of his listeners before they spoke a word but their words expressed their hearts.
“Out of the mouth comes what the heart is full of”
He did not enter into a friendly conversation with the madman in the tombs but dealt immediately with the spirit that were controlling him and set the man free. He healed the Syrophoenecian woman's daughter without even seeing her. He knew the woman at the well had had many husbands without ever being told.
These are all the work of the Spirit and we too can be imbued with the same Spirit to do the works he has given us to do. Even greater things he said. If these words were spoken only for the ears of his disciples then which other words does this apply to, …..and who decides?Now, now guys – there's plenty enough of me for all of you to tear strips off 😉
Quote What sources, outside of yourself, inform you as to what is true and what is false? (i.e. If I were to say to you, “Homosexuality is a perfectly healthy, even godly, alternative lifestyle!”, where would you turn to decide if my belief is true or false?)
I don't know why my answer would make any difference to whether or not I should be judged by another human, but if it will make you happy 😉I'm not particularly concerned with the sources, but with the reasoning. Even using all Biblical references, a former Casiphus may have answered your example question like this:
The story of Sodom and Gomorah shows that God hates homosexuals, and that he will destroy them. St Paul adds his criticism of homosexuals, saying that they will reap the destruction they sow. They are sexually devient people, whose behaviour goes against nature.
Whereas the current Casiphus may answer:
The first question to answer is, what is a godly lifestyle? Presumably it would be one that reveals the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace – as St Paul said. Jesus said that people would know his followers for their love. So a lifestyle that exhibits these fruits could be said to be godly. But what is love? St Paul goes on to say that love is patient, kind, never envious, always forgiving, always hoping. And what is joy? Joy is the song that comes after a night of mourning. It is an exuberant shout at the goodness of God and his ways, and the knowledge that they are just and upright, and will endure forever. And what is peace? Peace is the relationship that exists between the children of God, when he is on the throne of their hearts, and reflected in their behaviour towards one another. So a godly lifestyle is a loving, joyful, peaceful lifestyle, that promotes the goodness of God, and consequently the unity of the community.
Out of laziness I haven't bothered to reference, but I think they're all fairly self-explanatory – 1 Cor 12-13, John 16 or 17?, Psalms ?, Matt 7? – though really, I think of the latter as more Biblical principles than specific passages, at least, that's the point I'm trying to make. I wouldn't generally answer like that, because I find that as soon as you quote a Bible passage someone quotes another to contradict you, and it's easy to do (besides, I don't think something is valid just because the Bible says so – I think it still needs to be tested). However, as I hope I've shown, I'm not interested in sources, so much as approaches. I don't like an approach that tries to say, this is good and that is evil, because my source (Bible or other) says so. I find the consequences of this approach are generally divisive and destructive.
I prefer to use a “best practice” approach, where it can be shown that certain practices have unifying and uplifting consequences. And to recommend that these be the ones pursued.
Hi casiphus,
And a religion based on popular choices would find a very willing audiences everywhere. Your religion will be very successful-in the short term.Hi Nick,
I don't think I said anything about popular choices? I think a best practice approach is quite the opposite of popular choice – popular choice implies an individualist outlook, and I find this contrary to uplifting and unifying objectives. Sure sub-cultures may seem united, but it is a unity of behaviour – a conformity – not a unity of love and respect.
On the contrary, I think the best practice approach would be unpopular, because it means dying to your own ambitions.
Nick,
You wrote:
Quote The Spirit knows the heart of man and can discern beyond mere words written or spoken. Jesus knew the hearts of his listeners before they spoke a word but their words expressed their hearts.
“Out of the mouth comes what the heart is full of”
He did not enter into a friendly conversation with the madman in the tombs but dealt immediately with the spirit that were controlling him and set the man free. He healed the Syrophoenecian woman's daughter without even seeing her. He knew the woman at the well had had many husbands without ever being told.
These are all the work of the Spirit and we too can be imbued with the same Spirit to do the works he has given us to do. Even greater things he said. If these words were spoken only for the ears of his disciples then which other words does this apply to, …..and who decides?I'm not sure what this has to do with your statement:
“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”
I thought you were talking about scripture, not spontaneous prophesy. To be more precise in my question, are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?
Casiphus,
You wrote:
Quote I don't know why my answer would make any difference to whether or not I should be judged by another human, but if it will make you happy 😉 It's called discernment:
Quote Malachi 3:18:
Then you shall again discern
Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God
And one who does not serve Him.You wrote:
Quote I'm not particularly concerned with the sources, but with the reasoning. Even using all Biblical references, a former Casiphus may have answered your example question like this: The story of Sodom and Gomorah shows that God hates homosexuals, and that he will destroy them. St Paul adds his criticism of homosexuals, saying that they will reap the destruction they sow. They are sexually devient people, whose behaviour goes against nature.
Whereas the current Casiphus may answer:
The first question to answer is, what is a godly lifestyle? Presumably it would be one that reveals the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace – as St Paul said. Jesus said that people would know his followers for their love. So a lifestyle that exhibits these fruits could be said to be godly. But what is love? St Paul goes on to say that love is patient, kind, never envious, always forgiving, always hoping. And what is joy? Joy is the song that comes after a night of mourning. It is an exuberant shout at the goodness of God and his ways, and the knowledge that they are just and upright, and will endure forever. And what is peace? Peace is the relationship that exists between the children of God, when he is on the throne of their hearts, and reflected in their behaviour towards one another. So a godly lifestyle is a loving, joyful, peaceful lifestyle, that promotes the goodness of God, and consequently the unity of the community.
Out of laziness I haven't bothered to reference, but I think they're all fairly self-explanatory – 1 Cor 12-13, John 16 or 17?, Psalms ?, Matt 7? – though really, I think of the latter as more Biblical principles than specific passages, at least, that's the point I'm trying to make. I wouldn't generally answer like that, because I find that as soon as you quote a Bible passage someone quotes another to contradict you, and it's easy to do (besides, I don't think something is valid just because the Bible says so – I think it still needs to be tested). However, as I hope I've shown, I'm not interested in sources, so much as approaches. I don't like an approach that tries to say, this is good and that is evil, because my source (Bible or other) says so. I find the consequences of this approach are generally divisive and destructive.
I prefer to use a “best practice” approach, where it can be shown that certain practices have unifying and uplifting consequences. And to recommend that these be the ones pursued.
So who decides if something in scripture “passes the test”? Who decides what “approaches” constitute “best practices”?
It seems to me that the answer to both of those questions for you is “Casiphus”, in which case, Casiphus ends up being his own final authority – (at least in this life).
Again, if I have misunderstood you, please correct me, but I think that all I have done is simply clarified your position.
Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 14 2005,19:39) Nick, You wrote:
Quote The Spirit knows the heart of man and can discern beyond mere words written or spoken. Jesus knew the hearts of his listeners before they spoke a word but their words expressed their hearts.
“Out of the mouth comes what the heart is full of”
He did not enter into a friendly conversation with the madman in the tombs but dealt immediately with the spirit that were controlling him and set the man free. He healed the Syrophoenecian woman's daughter without even seeing her. He knew the woman at the well had had many husbands without ever being told.
These are all the work of the Spirit and we too can be imbued with the same Spirit to do the works he has given us to do. Even greater things he said. If these words were spoken only for the ears of his disciples then which other words does this apply to, …..and who decides?I'm not sure what this has to do with your statement:
“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”
I thought you were talking about scripture, not spontaneous prophesy. To be more precise in my question, are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?
Hi One Spirit,
The Spirit does not just help me but all who are in Christ and filled with that Spirit. The Spirit teaches, reminds us of scripture, comforts, helps us pray, exposes the world's evil and reveals aspects of the character of all we deal with including recognising the living Spirit in others.
Do you not yet know these things as Jesus told us about them?Nick,
My actual question was:
Are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?
That's all I am asking. I am not asking about the general purpose of the Spirit. (We've already discussed that at length.)
Hi One Spirit,
The Holy Spirit wrote scripture through men. Agree? So the Holy Spirit is enormously helpful to understand and put scripture together as a marvellous unity for the many who seek and that are given this blessing. We all are as babes beore Christ is born into us and need to feed on the body and blood of Christ[the Word of God] to slowly develop the mind of Christ. I am one of many toddlers in this regard. Are you?Hi One Spirit,
Quote It's called discernment But isn't it the Spirit of God that brings discernment? Did the Spirit of God tell you that I was my own final authority? Perhaps I should save you from answering that question.
Quote So who decides if something in scripture “passes the test”? Who decides what “approaches” constitute “best practices”? Funnily enough, I do think the answer to both these question is one – but not the one you suggested. Who decides is perhaps a misnoma – I would have said what decides – and the answer of course would be the fruit. Doesn't the Deuteronomist suggest to use this formula for deciding whether a prophet is true or not? And aren't Jesus' followers to be recognised by their fruit?
You know, most of the Church in Nazi Germany and Communist China, supported the incoming regimes, and right up to the time of their disbandment, these churches thought that the governments they supported were doing God's work (even the persecution of their outspoken brethren), and justified the actions of their leaders with passages from the Bible – so I don't really think discernment is based at all on whether you use or believe in the Bible.
Considering you do believe in the Bible, you presumably believe that in the final days (I don't know whether we're living in those days or not) many hearts will be turned, and even the elect will be deceived. How better to deceive a person than to make them believe you're speaking from the heart of God? And how better to do that than to source material they believe are the words of God?
I don't mind you analysing and pulling to pieces the things I say – I don't think I'm the final authority, and I certainly don't want to deceive anyone – but if something bears good fruit, will you cut it down because it doesn't agree with how you interpret the Bible?
Hi casiphus,
It is wisdom not to follow man even if that man quotes scripture. All denominations claim their doctrine is founded on the Word of God and they cannot agree giving the impression the Body of Christ is divided. But they are not the true church and the whore has many daughters.
Mt 7.24f
” Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock”
So when you see this written is it truth to you? Or is is possibly true or partly true?
Lk 6.46f
” Why do you call me 'Lord , Lord' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like; he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock”So does the second scripture make any difference to the appreciation of the first witness? It says the same thing in a slightly different way reflecting the hearing of the second witness. It clarifies, balances. It adds information too.
So by the scriptural principle of witnesses[eg 2Cor 13.2] it confirms the truth of the matter.
I believe this is what our God wants us to do. We are to “search the scriptures ” ouselves because that is where truth is to be found, and put our trust in the confirmed Word testing the teachings of men against it.
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