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In the old testament, salvation was through law right? i don't know for sure, and thats what i don't understand. and then in the new testament, it was through grace. I don't exactly know how to phrase this question, but it is something someone explained to me in a very complicated manner and i have no idea what it means. Ok, in the old testament God seemed kind of angrier and everything. And in the new testament, he seemed more loving. I know that God is God and he was and is the same one in the old and new and now. but you know, can someone explain it to me? law and grace… Law and Grace – is a subject that unstable people distort. And then say Law VS Grace.
It is really
Law of men VS Law(many) of Old covernent VS Law of New covernent (which ppl like to call GRACE)
Law cannot be seperated from grace, for if GoD was not gracefull we would not have anything. The old covernent was Grace too. So people that say it isnt are being unfair on GoD.
The grace of GoD brings law and order, and does not dispose of it. Jesus came proclaiming many Laws and rules-
It is the Grace of GoD that Jesus was sent to us. We did not have him sent, allthough, It was because of the rebeliousness that he was sent.
#LAWS
You see, People get confused between, These Following expressions of Laws
#1 Laws of the GoD for israel- the Specific Laws that GoD gave to israel (grain\animal sacrifices, Judgments)
#2 Laws Men made for themselves.
#3 GoDs universal Laws
#4 Laws under Jesus (GRACE) Changed Jewish Law (christianity)
#5 Law of the Spirit
#6 Law of the flesh (sin)
#7 Law for people who have not Heard #7Thses Laws at points Have common factors, some more obvious than others, But still Quite identifiably seperate or changed.
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#1 Jesus talks about the Law Givers (israel's law) Laws #1
Matthew 23:3
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.#2 Jesus also talks about the Law that Men make #2
Mark 7
6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
” 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[2] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
9And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[3] your own traditions!#3 The universal Laws That are above all #3
Matthew 7
12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.Matt 22
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[2] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[3] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”#4 Jesus Laws under Grace #4 (christianity)
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.Matthew 18
34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”Many more- Produce fruit or be cut off- Yeah add more later
Jesus is now the sacrifice- But this time, Men cannot Choose the sacrifice, The sacrifice chooses who he wants.
Romans 11:22
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.By the prophets the ones's who gave the Law's to the Jews, They prophecied About Jesus, and a new covernent. It is no longer GooD to kill, because GoD chose Jesus – Jesus said Love your enemies- Do good to them.
Acts 3
22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'[2]#5 The law of the spirit #5
Find these later- Anyone Does all that GoD commands (Obeys) is living by the law of the spirit
#6 The law of Sin #6
Find these later- Anyone who Disobeys GoD, sins, and is living by the law of Sin- the law of the Flesh, The law of death.
#7 The Law for those who have not heard any Law #7
The holy spirit was sent to convict the whole world-
Jesus will Judge everyone according to what they have done.
**********************************
Hope this gets you started, I'll Write some more l8rz, GoT an Xam, If youd like to pray 4 me, that GoD's will is done ^_^. L8rz
I guess what i was mostly looking for was why did God seem so much more loving in the new testament than in the old.
I guess to show that he is Not allways a pansy,(gracious, patient) that he wont allways let ppl(people) do what they want, and that when he decides it, those who choose his ways dont have to be that strong because he is theyre strength. Like tiny israel armies killing massive armies, and stuff like that.
Guess its to proove, That if you choose his way, In the end you will win. Even though for a time, it seems like your loosing.
GoD, still has that same attidude towards the rebelious, He still has The seccond death awaiting.
For our time, GoD wants to see who will be like his son, obey his Son. We know Jesus comes back as a warrior leading the armies of heaven, back to the Old Testimate Days, and rushes into Kill GoD and Magog, and the people of earth who try to fight at the Very end.
God has always loved us, but he couldn't fellowship with men (live inside them by his Spirit) till Jesus removed our sin against him. So men had to obey the Law and hope in the Messiah to come.
Now that the price of our sin has been paid, God can be with us all the time and we can see and know things about God that the men of old could not.
We live in a blessed time and have unrestricted access to God if we are worthy.
God hasn't changed, just the circumstances.
thank you peoples, this time i actually did understand it quite a bit. see, for me, law and grace and stuff like that is really complicated. and this really did help me.
God loves his Son.
He can't help but love us if we are in His Son.
Our sin is covered by the kingly cloak he wrapped around us when we walked back from our life in the pigsty[Lk 15.11]
The Holy Spirit works away under that cloak to clean us up if we let Him.[Rom 8.13-14]
Our older brother in Lk 15, the faithful Jew, will inherit too if his law abiding is perfect. The rich young jewish man in Lk 18.18-21 asked what he could DO to obtain eternal life. The answer Jesus gave was appropriate-obey the commandments-but this has confused many into thinking this was the Way of salvation.
It isn't. In the NT you MUST be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.
Without law there can be no sin for sin is a transgression of the law, but all have sinned (Rom 3:23). Therefore there is law under Christ. Fortunately there is also the gracious gift of God's Son who has paid for our transgressions so that God can be just and yet offer grace and pardon to sinners.
God seemed angrier in the OT because there was no remedy for sin, and the wages of sin is death. When men died before the cross, they went to a dark place in the Hadean realm far removed from God. Death was not really a relief. It was imprisonment. God was angry with men for there was no final remedy for sin, and all men were sinners. God forgave men, but it was always with an IOU. He still required the blood of Christ to be justified in His forgiveness for sin (Rom 3:26). Since Christ has died, God has relaxed some of His oneros provisions of law. For example, we don't have to offer payment for every sin we commit. God has taken care of that for us in the gift of Christ. We can eat more things, and we don't have to worry about ceremonial uncleanness and rituals if purification. If we repent and are baptized, we are cleansed (Heb 10:22, Acts 22:16).
James there was a remedy for sin, The sacrifices, and that law is still the same, It is still death for sins, Its just that we have a sacrifice who chooses us now. Jesus is that sacrifice. So please leave your fantasies at the door.
For now its harder, because the sacrifice chooses, And that sacrifice says- Many will enter the road that leads to distruction- But few are the ones who find life- and out of those who do, the road is hard and many are not able to enter the gate.We are forgiven if we ask, then we must forgive when we are asked otherwise GoD will not fogive us.
Yes Ringo. But if you have heard the message you are invited.
The law remains so anyone who chooses to subject themselves to it father than follow the way of Jesus can do so -but the standard is perfection and all have sinned.
The gate is still open to all. Jesus is the gate and to enter be baptised into him. The gate is narrow so you cannot take anything thing else with you- you have nothing else to offer the King but your life.
But the yoke is easy ,the burden is light.
Jesus gatheres the nations, and mentions nothing of belief.
In fact when he talks about those who claim to believe, he tells them, Get away from me you evil doer!!!. Which shows again, that he will not judge on belief, But on what you have Done.
And not the actions of a believer. But that of a good samaritan. He says for the actions of feeding, clothing, helping people, providing shelter. These are what we will be judged on.
The others are ceremonies, In themselves have no power, desighed to show our obediance so that we can be effective in this world, because we have obeyed. But in itself does not give you assured salvation.
Jesus has been made lord over all, Not over a few that call his name. He says he will Judge everyone according to what they have done.
eccondly After hell, It is emptied of all the dead, then each is Judged according to what thewy have done.
Please read the forum, Is hell eternal. You will descover some new understanding in these matters.
Quote (ringo111 @ July 25 2004,04:46) In fact when he talks about those who claim to believe, he tells them, Get away from me you evil doer!!!. Which shows again, that he will not judge on belief, But on what you have Done. And not the actions of a believer. But that of a good samaritan. He says for the actions of feeding, clothing, helping people, providing shelter. These are what we will be judged on.
Jesus has been made lord over all, Not over a few that call his name. He says he will Judge everyone according to what they have done.
Hi Ringo111,
It seems to me that you believe that you can earn salvation by doing good works. Is this the case?Luke 14
1One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. 2There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy.
12Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
He says they will be repaid. At the reserection. Meaning- They can go to hell for theyre indulgent life- For not believing in Jesus, But then When Death and hades are emptied, Be repaid.
Once again Another scripture. To back this statment.
Luke 16:9
9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
For IF it were not so then Death and hades would be thrown into the seccond death with everyone else inside if they were condemed allready-
And to back my view again,
The other dead had allready been judged Rev 20:12
So this was a private judging for the Death hades and sea dead of REV 20:13Please look at the full thing here.
http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….=1;t=20
But as a continuation.
Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37″Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40″The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44″They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45″He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”It is very clear. All the dogmattic stupidity that has been formed to controll people for selfish gain, melts away at these verses.
Jesus Mentions Nothing of belief, Jesus will Judge you by what you have DONE.
Psalm 62:12
and that you, O Lord, are loving. Surely you will reward each person according to what he has done.Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Romans 2:6
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[1] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.Sorry can't agree ringo. if you find yourself in the sheep and goat judgement you should be worried. Because this is not for christians but for the “nations'-ie everyone else.
You see it is a judgement of condemnation for some. We have already passed from death to life and there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. We have our name alredy written in the book of life and we are relying on the righteousness of Jesus having been baptised into Him. We have to appear before the Tribunal of Christ and that is a where we are rewarded.
No this is the last hope for man. It is the fulfilment of the promise made by Jesus that if any man give you a cup of ewater becuase you belong to Me he will not lose his reward. “Whatever you did to the least of these followers of mine you did unto me”. This is God's exception-salvation by works for a few.
Nick
37″Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
46……………………. but the righteous to eternal life.”
The righteous Go To eternal Life.
If you do not think that these are christians.
Then someone is going to eternal life other than christians.
*So then you do egknowlegde that those who do these charitable works will recieve eternal life. Then it is simple.
*People are saved outside of christian belief, They are saved by Jesus because of their WORKS!!!
Just as the disciples Obeyed and were saved because GoD was pleased by theyre works.
Dont you see the missing link that stupid Doctrines have hidden.
That is, You do what Pleases GoD, You work, Then Jesus saves you, If you please him. For GoD is not mocked, you reap what you sow.
GoD gave that power to Jesus, so GoD gets all the glory.
For we were commanded, to love your neighbour as you love yourself. But more-so, we were commanded, to love as Jesus Loved, which comes at a higher cost.
Jesus said your neighbour is anyone in need, people that are not your own. Jews, samaritans. Do you love your neighbour???
1 John 3
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.Im seeing strong parable sheep and the goats here.
****************************
But your view however is still wrong, For Jesus tells all people he will Judge christians aswell.
In fact christians teachers will be Judged more striktly.
James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.But as you see, It is not just teachers. Please make a special note, that it is the testimony of this writing that states. THEY KNEW JESUS. not just knew of him, but actually knew him. Which in the tradition, to know is to be baptised, and obey.
…But then they turned away.
2 Peter 2
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[6] and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”****************************
Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.As you see, If a christian does continue in Kindness, the christian will be cut off.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.*This shows that mens names are blotted out from the lambs book of life.
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As it seems to me, you would rather be sacrificing a lamb, or goat, for your own sins as you seem fit.
But Jesus is the final sin offering, and choosing who he wants to join his fathersw Kingdom.
As he says, many are called, but few are chosen.
As usual Ringo you miss the point that the sheep and goat judgement is not meant for us.
But you are right is one way that even after we are saved we will be judged and we must produce works because the Tribunal seat of Christ [2cor 5.10]is a judgement of works too [though primarily of reward]
.
Of course you MUST be reborn [first priority]to be present there but that judgement is the fulfillment of the parable of the talents [Mt 25.14ff] and we have to produce some interest on the investment of the Holy Spirit that God has placed in us or we could lose all as happened to the man who returned the single coin. We have to produce fruit to show our tree is a good tree[Mt 7.17] or we can we cut down and thrown in the fire[Lk 13.6]. We have to supply grapes to the vine or be pruned off.[Jn 15.6]We have to be wearing the right garments [good deeds Rev 19.8]]or be thrown out of the wedding feast[Mt 22.10].But it is the nature of the Holy Spirit to do these things in us. he leads us to obey the commandments including the new one to love one another. He produces love ,peace, patience ,kindness and generosity etc if we don't oppose his work of transformation in us. [also Col 1.10,Gal 5.22 Eph 3.17]
“Since we live by the Spirit let us follow the Spirit's lead…A man will reap only what he sows…if his seed ground is the Spirit he will reap everlasting life… Let us not grow weary of doing good.” Gal 5.25-6.9]
Quote
As usual Ringo you miss the point that the sheep and goat judgement is not meant for us.But you are right is one way that even after we are saved we will be judged and we must produce works because the Tribunal seat of Christ [2cor 5.10]is a judgement of works too [though primarily of reward]
.
Of course you MUST be reborn [first priority]to be present there but that judgement is the fulfillment of the parable of the talents [Mt 25.14ff] and we have to produce some interest on the investment of the Holy Spirit that God has placed in us or we could lose all as happened to the man who returned the single coin. We have to produce fruit to show our tree is a good tree[Mt 7.17] or we can we cut down and thrown in the fire[Lk 13.6]. We have to supply grapes to the vine or be pruned off.[Jn 15.6]We have to be wearing the right garments [good deeds Rev 19.8]]or be thrown out of the wedding feast[Mt 22.10].But it is the nature of the Holy Spirit to do these things in us. he leads us to obey the commandments including the new one to love one another. He produces love ,peace, patience ,kindness and generosity etc if we don't oppose his work of transformation in us. [also Col 1.10,Gal 5.22 Eph 3.17]
“Since we live by the Spirit let us follow the Spirit's lead…A man will reap only what he sows…if his seed ground is the Spirit he will reap everlasting life… Let us not grow weary of doing good.” Gal 5.25-6.9]
Explain to me, Using the whole scripture , and answer point by point. What it means. Seen as you think I am wrong.
Because Id like to see how anyone can take the parable of the sheep and the goats to mean anything less than……
Jesus gathers people, then according to what they did to eachother, They are Judged. Those who did good acts, Jesus called righteous, and were sent to eternal life.
Those who did not do good acts, were sent to eternal punishment.**********************************
True Jesus said, you must be reborn, Yet he did not say when you must be reborn. The robber on the tree, did not get baptised, or follow the rules. Yet only pleased Jesus. Jesus in response said. You will dine with me in paradise. Therefore
the rebirth that must be had, is not restrikted to your time on earth. Though, would be extreamly benefitial for your time here.***************************
Quote
“Since we live by the Spirit let us follow the Spirit's lead…A man will reap only what he sows…if his seed ground is the Spirit he will reap everlasting life… Let us not grow weary of doing good.” Gal 5.25-6.9]How sneaky of you.
You missed the bits in between. only taking what you liked to hear.
Now the holy spirit is not only convicting Christian, but convicting the whole world.
Gal 6
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load.
6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[1] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.***********************
This takes nothing away from the parable. This is the instruction to believers.
If you live by Jesus words, you are living by the spirit. Just as the Samaritan was obeying GoD's law, The same as many others, who obey GoD's law without knowing it as GoD's law.
In answer to your question Ringo
Matt 31
“. .as often as you did it for ONE OF MY LEAST BROTHERS you did it for Me”“..as often as you neglected to do it to one of these least ones you neglected to do it to Me”
This blessing is very specific. it does not say what good did you do for the poor or the needy but to the BROTHERS of Jesus. Who ,then,are the BROTHERS OF JESUS?
We know if we are born again [of water ond the Spirit] we are born into the Family of the Father [ Eph 3 15].We become sons of God.[Heb 12 5-13]
The answer is in Hebrews 2.10-13
” Indeed it was fitting that when bringing many sons to glory God , for Whom and through Whom all things exist, should make their leader in the work of salvation perfect through suffering.Therefore he is not ashamed to call them BROTHERS…”Don't distrust everyone. that is the fruit of the world's followers. 1 Tim 6.1-6
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In answer to your question RingoMatt 31
“. .as often as you did it for ONE OF MY LEAST BROTHERS you did it for Me”“..as often as you neglected to do it to one of these least ones you neglected to do it to Me”
This blessing is very specific. it does not say what good did you do for the poor or the needy but to the BROTHERS of Jesus. Who ,then,are the BROTHERS OF JESUS?
Whoever lends to the poor, Lends to the Lord.
Jesus says that if you give to the poor you will in fact, have treasure in heaven. Who does Jesus say the earth belongs to?? HE says the poor!! Which goes with him saying.
Luke 16:9
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.Quote
We know if we are born again [of water ond the Spirit] we are born into the Family of the Father [ Eph 3 15].We become sons of God.[Heb 12 5-13]The answer is in Hebrews 2.10-13
” Indeed it was fitting that when bringing many sons to glory God , for Whom and through Whom all things exist, should make their leader in the work of salvation perfect through suffering.Therefore he is not ashamed to call them BROTHERS…”Please quote it correctly??
Hebrews 2:10-11
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.Yes, Jesus calls whoever he likes his brothers. And?
Your point???Quote
Don't distrust everyone. that is the fruit of the world's followers. 1 Tim 6.1-6This Contains a warning of men who have faulse doctrines.
1 tim 6:1-6
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain.Men who change the gospel for financial gain. This has nothing to do with distrust being fruit of the world.
But that just confirms. The many other scriptures like this following one.
1 Corinthians 16:13
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.
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