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Quote (david @ April 01 2013,20:10) Quote The church as recorded in Scripture had differences in its members. Another question: how does one know they are in the church? Today, there are many differences in what “Christians” believe. You can find “Christians” who believe homosexuality is ok, and can find those who disagree; those who believe the universe is 6000 years old and those who,disagree. I could list 1000 things if I really tried.
If the church is made up of people that believe almost everything, the one uniting thing being that they believe Jesus existed, and died, most of the people's beliefs have to be wrong.
If only believing Jesus existed is necessary, how will heaven/paradise be any different than the earth now, it having the same people that the earth has today?
Some good questions here.The Church is the Body of Christ. Those that belong to Christ do the will of God. Obviously we cannot prove who is and who isn't but we can have a fair idea.
It will not be till we have lived our lives here, that we will find out. But while we are here, those that seek the truth will find it, while those that have other motives will do what they want to do.
In the end, this is it. We are not practicing. This is our lives playing out now. So we should seek to be true, humble, loving, generous, and seek truth as if we were mining for precious stones.
Quote (david @ April 01 2013,20:05) Kerwin, So the way heretics are thrown out of the church today or the way differences are overcome, is, the person with authority (the person that owns the website) removes the person that disagrees or teaches “false stories” or harmful demonic doctrine, “teachings of demons”?
If I create a website, then I become an authority? Is that how it works? The person in power decides? Since t8 doesn't believe in the trinity, that means the trinity teaching is wrong in is corner of the church?
What if I make a website teaching the opposite?
We know just believing in Jesus doesn't mean a lot. The demons have belief in Jesus. And many will say “lord, lord,” thinking they are doing right. So, what is the right thing?
T8 decides?
Scripture guides us and that is the yardstick.And if God exists, and scripture is inspired by him, then only those who truly are of him will have the correct spirit to read what it is saying. And those who serve themselves will have their own spin on what truth is.
It's that simple. We live and after that, our lives are reviewed. So if our heart is right and we search, I believe that we will find. Further, error is exposed in the light. In this forum, we use the light of scripture to expose lies.
Knowing this, it is in our interest to be students of truth and to test all things to see if they are so. Some do not have this spirit, and instead, will prove they are the truth at all costs. Those people are easy to spot.
In short, God decides and he knows the motives of our hearts. Nothing is hid from him.
Quote (t8 @ April 01 2013,13:05) Quote (david @ April 01 2013,20:05) Kerwin, So the way heretics are thrown out of the church today or the way differences are overcome, is, the person with authority (the person that owns the website) removes the person that disagrees or teaches “false stories” or harmful demonic doctrine, “teachings of demons”?
If I create a website, then I become an authority? Is that how it works? The person in power decides? Since t8 doesn't believe in the trinity, that means the trinity teaching is wrong in is corner of the church?
What if I make a website teaching the opposite?
We know just believing in Jesus doesn't mean a lot. The demons have belief in Jesus. And many will say “lord, lord,” thinking they are doing right. So, what is the right thing?
T8 decides?
Scripture guides us and that is the yardstick.And if God exists, and scripture is inspired by him, then only those who truly are of him will have the correct spirit to read what it is saying. And those who serve themselves will have their own spin on what truth is.
It's that simple. We live and after that, our lives are reviewed. So if our heart is right and we search, I believe that we will find. Further, error is exposed in the light. In this forum, we use the light of scripture to expose lies.
Knowing this, it is in our interest to be students of truth and to test all things to see if they are so. Some do not have this spirit, and instead, will prove they are the truth at all costs. Those people are easy to spot.
T8Yes,that is true!and I agree with you on this
Quote (david @ April 01 2013,12:05) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2013,05:16) Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2013,21:58) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2013,22:58) Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2013,12:26) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2013,05:33) Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2013,11:19) “I love the church environment.”–jb2u hi Jb.
You will find almost no one on this forum who loves the church environment. I would say this forum is 95% anti-church, and perhaps, rightfully so.
But really, the word translated “church” just means “congregation,” and a congregation is a congregated people, not a building. People can gather anywhere, even on an Internet site. But, I am trying to figure out how some can think that a very divided group, some believing the trinity, some teaching against, some believing in hellfire, and some against, etc, can be “the true church,” teaching truth.
David.
Let the personal attacks begin.
David,I simply view us all as students whose goal should be seeking the true gospel of Christ.
The church as recorded in Scripture had differences in its members.
So, the big question then: are there any differences that are so big that they can't be overcome? Or any differences that are so big that you would say some aren't following Christ?And, while there were differences, weren't they sorted out? It's understandable that there be differences when Christianity was very new and when things were being sorted out, isn't it?
David,1) Differences show who is approved of by God.
2) Blaspheme against the Spirit is the only difference that cannot be overcome.
3) Heretics were thrown out of the church.
4) We seek for what the apostles knew.
Hi kerwin.So, if I teach that God burns bad people forever in hellfire, and that he is a mysterious unknowable trinity, but you teach the opposites, are these differences in belief ok? Who decides? Are you are I a heretic if such was the case? And which one of us? And who decides? Is it majority rule? The majority believe in a pope. So how does one get kicked out of a church that isn't really structured? How would you define “blaspheme against the Holy Spirit”?
David,The authorities are given the sword to wield for God.
They must give account to him for how they wield it and do not wield it.The authorities of heaven.net.nz kick some off the site, consign others to skeptics, and allow still others to converse in order to come to the true understanding of Scripture.
Kerwin,So the way heretics are thrown out of the church today or the way differences are overcome, is, the person with authority (the person that owns the website) removes the person that disagrees or teaches “false stories” or harmful demonic doctrine, “teachings of demons”?
If I create a website, then I become an authority? Is that how it works? The person in power decides? Since t8 doesn't believe in the trinity, that means the trinity teaching is wrong in is corner of the church?
What if I make a website teaching the opposite?
We know just believing in Jesus doesn't mean a lot. The demons have belief in Jesus. And many will say “lord, lord,” thinking they are doing right. So, what is the right thing?
T8 decides?
David,There are both good and bad fish in the net that is the kingdom of God at this time.
Either type of fish can be authorities. Each of us has the job of testing the spirits of the teachings we hear as well as those we believe.
Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer.
The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Quote Scripture guides us and that is the yardstick And yet, different people look at the yardstick differently.
Some look at it so close they only see a tiny part of it that says: “believe on The Lord.”
Others chop the yardstick into a thousand pieces and re-arrange and pick out their favourite parts.
Others, mask out pieces of the yardstick, saying this is parable and that is literal
Still, some say the first part of the yard stick isn't worth our time, while others believe we should examine the whole stick.
Others bend the stick into distorted shapes.
****
because everyone peers through glasses labeled “confirmation bias,” it's hard to measure by a yardstick with so much information in it that can be twisted by our own minds, to meet our desires.
While there might be one yardstick, on this website for example, it is viewed in a hundred different ways, people arguing over it, saying “it is black,” while others say “it is white.”
Quote Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. It sounds like you are describing 1st century Christianity. It was described as a sect, spoken against by everyone, but as was written, they were to “all speak in agreement.” They were to be “one” as Jesus was one with his father.
((I know you will point out the couple times that there were disagreements, but those were resolved by taking them to the elders. And those few momentary disputes do not compare with the 10,000 disagreements on this website for example))
Does it not seem to all, that true Christians around the world, should generally believe the same things?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2013,03:10) Quote (Jeremy @ Mar. 30 2013,08:09) To me its clear that Jesus has free will to choose to stay in the will of God or go against him, otherwise why would Satan have tried to tempt him.
Good point, Jeremy. God created all of His sons with a free will. He apparently did not want robots who were hardwired to serve Him no matter what.Apparently, it is for God's own good pleasure that His creations CHOOSE to serve Him of their own free will.
Some of those children do, and some don't. Jesus does. Satan doesn't.
And apparently 33% of the Angels.Quote (carmel @ Mar. 31 2013,07:57)
It was through Satan's plan that God became man, always believing, and still believes,that he would achieve manhood,but he lost it on the cross in his first attempt,when Jesus never died ALTHOUGH MAN,but Satan did ALTHOUGH A SPIRIT, and achieved his kingdom!Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Hi Charles,Maybe it's just me, but I can't figure out what you're saying here.
Can you please say it again, but this time use different words.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ April 02 2013,09:56) Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Ain't that the truth.Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,15:38) Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,09:56) Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Ain't that the truth.
Jesus found fault with those who did what he didn't approve of. See revelation where he speaks to the congregations.Wouldn't they have opposed the “oppressive wolves” that entered the flock, the “weeds,” those that told “false stories” and were “twisting the scriptures to their own destruction,” those that taught philosophies and doctrine of men, following the traditions of man, rather than the word of God? Wouldn't the earliest Christians have opposed the many sects that were forming?
In fact, Jesus warned against these, specifically naming some of them.The sect of nicholaus for example. It wasn't just: let them do their thing and we will do ours. No, it was: they are wrong and have gone off the straight path, avoid them, and their teachings.
Quote (david @ April 02 2013,15:46) Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,15:38) Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,09:56) Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Ain't that the truth.
Jesus found fault with those who did what he didn't approve of. (1)See revelation where he speaks to the congregations.(2)Wouldn't they have opposed the “oppressive wolves” that entered the flock, the “weeds,” those that told “false stories” and were “twisting the scriptures to their own destruction,” (3)those that taught philosophies and doctrine of men, following the traditions of man, rather than the word of God? (4)Wouldn't the earliest Christians have opposed the many sects that were forming?
(5)In fact, Jesus warned against these, specifically naming some of them.(6)The sect of nicholaus for example. It wasn't just: let them do their thing and we will do ours. No, it was: they are wrong and have gone off the straight path, avoid them, and their teachings.
Hi David,1) Notice how YOU said “congratulations” and not 'congregation'.
2) Sure
3) Certainly expose it.
4) Your question calls for speculation.
5) Not sure what you're saying here?
6) I believe the problem Jesus had with the Nicolaitans was their concern with the pecking order (who's over who).
Remember Jesus said that he who seeks to be greatest must be servant of all, NOT SEEK TO BE THE BIG CHEESE.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,16:03) Quote (david @ April 02 2013,15:46) Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,15:38) Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,09:56) Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Ain't that the truth.
Jesus found fault with those who did what he didn't approve of. (1)See revelation where he speaks to the congregations.(2)Wouldn't they have opposed the “oppressive wolves” that entered the flock, the “weeds,” those that told “false stories” and were “twisting the scriptures to their own destruction,” (3)those that taught philosophies and doctrine of men, following the traditions of man, rather than the word of God? (4)Wouldn't the earliest Christians have opposed the many sects that were forming?
(5)In fact, Jesus warned against these, specifically naming some of them.(6)The sect of nicholaus for example. It wasn't just: let them do their thing and we will do ours. No, it was: they are wrong and have gone off the straight path, avoid them, and their teachings.
Hi David,1) Notice how YOU said “congratulations” and not 'congregation'.
2) Sure
3) Certainly expose it.
4) Your question calls for speculation.
5) Not sure what you're saying here?
6) I believe the problem Jesus had with the Nicolaitans was their concern with the pecking order (who's over who).
Remember Jesus said that he who seeks to be greatest must be servant of all, NOT SEEK TO BE THE BIG CHEESE.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
1). What? No I didn't. Look again. (And, I didn't edit it)Quote This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to Question Ed.
You are living in the end of the 1st century. Lets say you are one of the apostles grandchildren. You are a Christian. At this time, lets say 20 sects have formed. (I can't remember the number, I have stats somewhere). Now,
What is your view of these sects? Are you strongly opposed to them? Do you find fault with them? Or, do you accept them? Remember what Jesus, Peter and Paul and John foretold. So, how would you view these sects, or the people in them?
This question is really to anyone.
Quote (david @ April 02 2013,17:26) Quote This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to Question Ed.
You are living in the end of the 1st century. Lets say you are one of the apostles grandchildren. You are a Christian. At this time, lets say 20 sects have formed. (I can't remember the number, I have stats somewhere). Now,
What is your view of these sects? Are you strongly opposed to them? Do you find fault with them? Or, do you accept them? Remember what Jesus, Peter and Paul and John foretold. So, how would you view these sects, or the people in them?
This question is really to anyone.
Hi David,Isn't that what got Shaool (Saul) in trouble?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ April 02 2013,18:13) Quote Scripture guides us and that is the yardstick And yet, different people look at the yardstick differently.
Some look at it so close they only see a tiny part of it that says: “believe on The Lord.”
Others chop the yardstick into a thousand pieces and re-arrange and pick out their favourite parts.
Others, mask out pieces of the yardstick, saying this is parable and that is literal
Still, some say the first part of the yard stick isn't worth our time, while others believe we should examine the whole stick.
Others bend the stick into distorted shapes.
****
because everyone peers through glasses labeled “confirmation bias,” it's hard to measure by a yardstick with so much information in it that can be twisted by our own minds, to meet our desires.
While there might be one yardstick, on this website for example, it is viewed in a hundred different ways, people arguing over it, saying “it is black,” while others say “it is white.”
And it is God who will commend or rebuke us.God has the last say.
This is it. Our life is in progress.
Then the review.Quote (david @ April 02 2013,20:26) Question Ed. You are living in the end of the 1st century. Lets say you are one of the apostles grandchildren. You are a Christian. At this time, lets say 20 sects have formed. (I can't remember the number, I have stats somewhere). Now,
What is your view of these sects? Are you strongly opposed to them? Do you find fault with them? Or, do you accept them? Remember what Jesus, Peter and Paul and John foretold. So, how would you view these sects, or the people in them?
This question is really to anyone.
If they recognise the Body of Christ and are not an exclusive sect, then should be okay if they also teach the things that they should.However, a sect by its nature is a section or cult unto itself.
If it is self-serving, then it is what our brother Paul said. They will entice men to follow after themselves. So in that case beware.
I have met many groups that say they teach from the Bible, but clearly they view all outside of their sect as not being part of the Kingdom, not saved, or in some lesser position as them.
This thinking is toxic and fleshly. Such bring division and are accountable to God for that stumbling block.
Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,18:37) Quote (david @ April 02 2013,20:26) Question Ed. You are living in the end of the 1st century. Lets say you are one of the apostles grandchildren. You are a Christian. At this time, lets say 20 sects have formed. (I can't remember the number, I have stats somewhere). Now,
What is your view of these sects? Are you strongly opposed to them? Do you find fault with them? Or, do you accept them? Remember what Jesus, Peter and Paul and John foretold. So, how would you view these sects, or the people in them?
This question is really to anyone.
If they recognise the Body of Christ and are not an exclusive sect, then should be okay if they also teach the things that they should.However, a sect by its nature is a section or cult unto itself.
If it is self-serving, then it is what our brother Paul said. They will entice men to follow after themselves. So in that case beware.
I have met many groups that say they teach from the Bible, but clearly they view all outside of their sect as not being part of the Kingdom, not saved, or in some lesser position as them.
This thinking is toxic and fleshly. Such bring division and are accountable to God for that stumbling block.
Excellent response!Quote (david @ April 02 2013,18:46) Quote (Ed J @ April 02 2013,15:38) Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,09:56) Joining a cult where everyone signs up to a set of doctrines and become one in agreement (unless they leave) is not the answer. The truth is not easy and like gold, it takes work to get it. We live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one so we are opposed from every side.
Paul even said that these times would come after he passed away. He warned people day and night with tears regarding these times and the deceivers and deception to come.
All we can do is remain humble, teachable, and trust in God. If we have selfish motives, then we will err and cause others to err as well.
Of those who are humble enough to be given the task of teaching the great truths of God, surely such would recognise others and work together to dispel lies and shine the true light. This would of course result in great opposition and fault finding missions in the way that Jesus was subject to.
Ain't that the truth.
Jesus found fault with those who did what he didn't approve of. See revelation where he speaks to the congregations.Wouldn't they have opposed the “oppressive wolves” that entered the flock, the “weeds,” those that told “false stories” and were “twisting the scriptures to their own destruction,” those that taught philosophies and doctrine of men, following the traditions of man, rather than the word of God? Wouldn't the earliest Christians have opposed the many sects that were forming?
In fact, Jesus warned against these, specifically naming some of them.The sect of nicholaus for example. It wasn't just: let them do their thing and we will do ours. No, it was: they are wrong and have gone off the straight path, avoid them, and their teachings.
Agreed. I only opened the possibility that there might be a sect or section of people who are isolated, that might develop a unique Christian culture, but still be part of the Body of Christ when contacted, rather than an exclusive sect.Sects that are exclusive usually get that way because of the unique teachings they hold to. Otherwise they would not see themselves as different and would be part of the Body of Christ.
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