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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,17:19) WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote However if I take a scripture like John 14:6 and quote it to a believer in the inspired scriptures then it would be taken “as evidence” that Jesus is the “Only Way” to God and all other ways are false by Jesus own words.
I think that this sums up the misunderstanding perfectly. You are attempting to provide evidence for someone who is already a believer, not for someone who is searching for Truth in general. I think that this is generally called “preaching to the choir.”As you astutely point out:
Quote Maybe t8 should block this thread from believers because I do not belong here!
Except, you should exercise self-control and simply ban yourself, as your answers aren't useful for those who are genuinely searching but who also may not be sure about the scriptures. You should leave the apologetics to believers who are prepared to defend their faith to non-believers and others with unanswered questions.For the record, I am open to going wherever the evidence leads me. So, if you had provided any, I would have considered it, (along with the many fence-sitters who read a thread like this but don't post).
Hi WIT
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,17:19) I think that this sums up the misunderstanding perfectly. You are attempting to provide evidence for someone who is already a believer, not for someone who is searching for Truth in general. I think that this is generally called “preaching to the choir.”
I guess you still do not get it. I can have dialoge with one who may not agree with me on a particular scripture in the way we view it yet they still agree like myself that the Scriptures are inspired and true.So no that is not preaching to the choir! That is seeking to understand “THE TRUTHS” in the scriptures.
To me that would be a greater witness to the unbeliever rather than squabling over the authenticity of the Scriptures which are able to make us wise unto salvation.
Do you expect to win someone to Christ by casting doubt on his word?
It appears the difference between me and you WIT is that you look in the scriptures to find what is wrong with them rather than to seek for the truth. You may say that is the same thing but it is not! The bias of an antagonist will always to some degree blind them!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,17:19) Except, you should exercise self-control and simply ban yourself, as your answers aren't useful for those who are genuinely searching but who also may not be sure about the scriptures.
As far as my answers I gave you an answer and you say it is not useful.I showed you where Jesus clearly said that if you do not believe Moses writings even though someone rose from the dead you would not believe his words. As far as a sincere searcher that should be enough.
But that is not enough for you. You have to look for some evidence in the OT to see if Jesus words were true!
So rather than indulging in your quest to prove the scriptures as being corrupt I simply told you that I do not need any evidence for I have the Spirit of Truth, the words of Jesus and the Apostles who quoted Moses.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,17:19) You should leave the apologetics to believers who are prepared to defend their faith to non-believers and others with unanswered questions.
And you should be ashamed of yourself (a professing believer?) for casting shadows of doubt on the inspired scriptures that are able to make men wise unto salvation!The OT cannon was available in Jesus time, do you read of Jesus at anytime casting a shadow of doubt on them?
Non-believers with sincere questions is not what is happening here is it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,08:29) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,08:06) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,15:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,03:37) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
But that was not the point I made. You are claiming that your faith trumps real physical evidence. If you apply that without discrimination then you get suicide bombings and murders of medical staff.Stuart
Hi STUThe funny thing is one has to still believe the evidence.
You have not presented any evidence that the Torah was not written by Moses, but only what you believe is physical evidence!
WJ
It is not possible to prove a negative. It is not me claiming the torah was written by Moses, it is you making that claim so you have the burden of proof of that positive statement. The textual evidence is against there being just one author, but you make your assertion anyway, without evidence. Anyway, what do you care about evidence? Whatever I say, your faith 'wins' doesn't it? You have the perfect answer to every question, that of the seven year old.Stuart
Hi STUHow Ironic that you “believe” everything you are saying!
So continue on with your insults!
LOL, and you are still claiming that I am the child?
WJ!
Do you not know the definition of 'belief'?Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,10:47) Non-believers with sincere questions is not what is happening here is it?
My question about how you justify your position that your faith trumps physical evidence was a sincere one.I don't recall a sincere answer to it.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,18:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,10:47) Non-believers with sincere questions is not what is happening here is it?
My question about how you justify your position that your faith trumps physical evidence was a sincere one.I don't recall a sincere answer to it.
Stuart
Hi STUIf you can't show me physical evidence then why do you ask?
But I will give you an answer anyway.
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists” and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Heb 11:6
I simply believe that God exist, so it doesn't matter what you say about the scriptures or Christians! To me, my faith that God exist trumps everything!
WJ
WJ
I posted links to descriptions of evidence. Did you read them?
You assert that your god rewards those who seek him. Are these peripheral psychological rewards akin to the placebo effect, or can you actually convince me that they are more than your own imaginings?
Without any independent arbiter like some kind of evidence, I am free to assert that you are wrong about every claim you have made for you god, and that in fact there is no such thing. My claim has exactly the same merit as yours.
I generally expect people to ask for evidence for what I believe, but since you do not respect that concept I feel no particular pressure when I tell you, without justification, that you are embarrassingly wrong about your Imaginary Sky Friends.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,19:18) WJ I posted links to descriptions of evidence. Did you read them?
You assert that your god rewards those who seek him. Are these peripheral psychological rewards akin to the placebo effect, or can you actually convince me that they are more than your own imaginings?
Without any independent arbiter like some kind of evidence, I am free to assert that you are wrong about every claim you have made for you god, and that in fact there is no such thing. My claim has exactly the same merit as yours.
I generally expect people to ask for evidence for what I believe, but since you do not respect that concept I feel no particular pressure when I tell you, without justification, that you are embarrassingly wrong about your Imaginary Sky Friends.
Stuart
Hi STUOK! I Appologise!
I am sorry for not asking you for evidence of what you believe.
So please present evidence that my sky friends are imaginary!
Since you are so convinced that God does not exist. Please show us your proof!
If you don't mind could you give me your sources!
Good luck!
WJ
As I explained to you, I am only following your example in asserting that your god does not exist. My say so should be enough for you, I do not need to present evidence.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,20:53) As I explained to you, I am only following your example in asserting that your god does not exist. My say so should be enough for you, I do not need to present evidence.
Stuart
StuQuote (Stu @ July 21 2009,20:53) My say so should be enough for you, I do not need to present evidence.
Ditto.WJ
So you agree that my assertion that there are no gods has exactly the same credibility as your assertion there are/is.
Stuart
WorshippingJesus,
Let's cut to the chase.
This thread is entitled, 'Non believers'. Are you here to discuss issues that might concern non-believers or not? If so, do you understand that non-believers don't typically start out believing scripture cover to cover?
Again, here are your own words:
Quote Maybe t8 should block this thread from believers because I do not belong here! Heed your own advice.
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 22 2009,14:40) there are gods then there is God
Surely that is not what Judeo-christian says?!Are you a henotheist?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,22:04) So you agree that my assertion that there are no gods has exactly the same credibility as your assertion there are/is. Stuart
STULets put it this way. My assertion there is a God will not convince you no more than your assertion that there is no God can convince me!
WJ
Hi WIT
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 22 2009,00:01) WorshippingJesus, Let's cut to the chase.
I have been cutting to the chase. I have been just as serious and straight forward as I can be.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 22 2009,00:01) This thread is entitled, 'Non believers'. Are you here to discuss issues that might concern non-believers or not?
I thought that is what I was doing by defending the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures that are able to make men wise unto salvation!Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 22 2009,00:01) If so, do you understand that non-believers don't typically start out believing scripture cover to cover?
Yes that is true, although it seems that there are some here that would cast a shadow and doubt on what little they do believe to make sure they join their quest of proving the scriptures corrupt so they will probably not believe any of the Scriptures.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 22 2009,00:01) Heed your own advice. WIT
Thanks! I think I will!Blessings to you as you seek WIT!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,17:14) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,22:04) So you agree that my assertion that there are no gods has exactly the same credibility as your assertion there are/is. Stuart
STULets put it this way. My assertion there is a God will not convince you no more than your assertion that there is no God can convince me!
WJ
They are both unsupported assertions with no credibility. Unfortunately it is all god-believers have.Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,17:35) Yes that is true, although it seems that there are some here that would cast a shadow and doubt on what little they do believe to make sure they join there quest of proving the scriptures corrupt so they will probably not believe any of the Scriptures.
Why should your scriptures not be subjected to the closest scrutiny? You would have others follow what they say. Is it that their credibility is a bit flimsy if scrutinised too closely?I have found them flimsy even to the casual glance. Just look in the “Too hard basket” for 5 examples.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 22 2009,16:01) WorshippingJesus, Let's cut to the chase.
This thread is entitled, 'Non believers'. Are you here to discuss issues that might concern non-believers or not? If so, do you understand that non-believers don't typically start out believing scripture cover to cover?
Again, here are your own words:
Quote Maybe t8 should block this thread from believers because I do not belong here! Heed your own advice.
WIT,
I think that you have just shut this thread down.If you do not want a believer to discuss why he believes with
a non believer, then there is no subject for discussion.
At least WorshippingJesus was attempting a dialogue, even if his only “proof” comes from the bible.
Tim
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 23 2009,00:31) all the scriptures com true at some times so we need to reach our world
Is that a reasonable basis for peddling scripture? Psychics guess things accurately about people they are cold reading sometimes, but it is never anything more than a guess.How about knowledge that can be shown to be sound, and can be corrected on the rare occasions that it is shown to be wrong?
That is the modern miracle of science!
Stuart
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