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Quote (TimothyVI @ July 06 2009,05:33) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 06 2009,13:07) people believe in whatever god they want but i believe in the one true God
As do all of the others in their mind.
What makes you so positive that you are right and they are wrong?They are just as sure that they believe in the one true God,
and that it is you who are deceived.Tim
Hi TimI think Jesus own words sets the record straight.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”.
Which brings us back to the foundation of the Christian doctrine…
We walk by faith.
Jesus also said…
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, “yet you refuse to come to me to have life“. John 5:39, 40
And…
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. “But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” John 5:46, 47
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,00:32) Quote (TimothyVI @ July 06 2009,05:33) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 06 2009,13:07) people believe in whatever god they want but i believe in the one true God
As do all of the others in their mind.
What makes you so positive that you are right and they are wrong?They are just as sure that they believe in the one true God,
and that it is you who are deceived.Tim
Hi TimI think Jesus own words sets the record straight.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”.
Which brings us back to the foundation of the Christian doctrine…
We walk by faith.
Jesus also said…
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, “yet you refuse to come to me to have life“. John 5:39, 40
And…
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. “But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” John 5:46, 47
Blessings WJ
So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?If there is, why didn't post it in response to your own question.
Quote But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”. Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,14:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,00:32) Quote (TimothyVI @ July 06 2009,05:33) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 06 2009,13:07) people believe in whatever god they want but i believe in the one true God
As do all of the others in their mind.
What makes you so positive that you are right and they are wrong?They are just as sure that they believe in the one true God,
and that it is you who are deceived.Tim
Hi TimI think Jesus own words sets the record straight.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”.
Which brings us back to the foundation of the Christian doctrine…
We walk by faith.
Jesus also said…
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, “yet you refuse to come to me to have life“. John 5:39, 40
And…
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. “But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” John 5:46, 47
Blessings WJ
So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?If there is, why didn't post it in response to your own question.
Quote But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”.
Hi WITThe question was not mine. It was in ” ” marks and is meant to show the questions unbelievers will have.
The answer is “I” nor Jesus himself can convince you or anyone that his words are true if you do not believe Moses writings, in fact Jesus said if they do not believe the words of Moses they would not believe if someone was raised from the dead to tell them. Luke 16:29-31
Those are Jesus own words.
We walk by faith!
WJ
WorshippingJesus,
Great! Can you give me one example of the evidence in the writings of Moses that support the idea that the NT is authentic and that the recorded words of Jesus within the NT are accurate?
While you are at it, as a related matter, can you explain why Jesus in Matthew 5:38 appears to disagree with Moses (who was speaking for God) in Deuteronomy 19:21? Or, why he flatly contradicts what Moses said were God's commandments in Matthew 19:7-9?
(In the latter case, it would appear that Jesus is making the NT the authority over the OT, and casting doubt on the OT's reliability for understanding God's will, in which case, using the OT to authenticate the NT seems sillly. Wouldn't you think?)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:16) WorshippingJesus, Great! Can you give me one example of the evidence in the writings of Moses that support the idea that the NT is authentic and that the recorded words of Jesus within the NT are accurate?
While you are at it, as a related matter, can you explain why Jesus in Matthew 5:38 appears to disagree with Moses (who was speaking for God) in Deuteronomy 19:21? Or, why he flatly contradicts what Moses said were God's commandments in Matthew 19:7-9?
(In the latter case, it would appear that Jesus is making the NT the authority over the OT, and casting doubt on the OT's reliability for understanding God's will, in which case, using the OT to authenticate the NT seems sillly. Wouldn't you think?)
Hi WITWhat part of these words do you not understand?
The answer is “I” nor Jesus himself can convince you or anyone that his words are true if you do not believe Moses writings, in fact Jesus said if they do not believe the words of Moses they would not believe if someone was raised from the dead to tell them. Luke 16:29-31
No proof, only a confession of faith! This is why we have the Spirit of Truth to guide and lead us into all truth!
WJ
WorshippingJesus,
Consider the fact that there are other people reading this thread. Even if you think that I am swine before whom you will not cast your precious pearls, you owe it to those on the fence to respond to my questions, lest they think that you don't actually have a response. You need not convince me of anything, you simply need to show that your words are backed up by something other than a poker player's bluff.
You said it yourself. The evidence is in the writings of Moses. Well, give us one example.
And it wouldn't hurt the fence sitters (and other marginal believers) for you to respond to my other questions as well. After all, the Truth shall set you free!
My mistake. I did, in fact, misunderstand part of your answer.
You appear to be saying that believing Moses is a prerequisite to believing Jesus. Fair enough.
My two questions still stand, with the added twist: Why would anyone who “believes Moses” trust the NT words of Jesus, when they clearly seem to contradict on certain points?
In other words, how does a belief in Moses help anyone believe in the NT? There are plenty of Jews who would attest to the contrary, so it's clearly not automatic.
What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example!
Great volley, but the ball is back in your court.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) My mistake. I did, in fact, misunderstand part of your answer.
You appear to be saying that believing Moses is a prerequisite to believing Jesus. Fair enough.
My two questions still stand, with the added twist: Why would anyone who “believes Moses” trust the NT words of Jesus, when they clearly seem to contradict on certain points?
In other words, how does a belief in Moses help anyone believe in the NT? There are plenty of Jews who would attest to the contrary, so it's clearly not automatic.
What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example!
Great volley, but the ball is back in your court.
WITI have answered you.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example! The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith.
As far as your questions about Jesus disagreeing with Moses, that is the way you see it.
Jesus in no way said Moses writings were invalid or contradicted Moses. Jesus simply introduced the New Covenant and said he came to fulfill the law.
Now instead of Eye for Eye it is turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you!
WJ
Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here?
The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans?
Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:25) Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans? Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
STUI dont see how loving your enemys supports your explanation of turning the other cheek, do you?
WJ
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUCan you show me some evidence of your claim. For you seem to speak with certainty that Moses didnt write them yet at the same time doubt that Moses did!
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well. Not blind, but faith born of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
WJ
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUAlso, again you make my point.
Your unbelief that God can be powerful enough to use men to record his words by inspiration does not change the fact that possibly hundreds of miillions do.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:30) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:25) Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans? Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
STUI dont see how loving your enemys supports your explanation of turning the other cheek, do you?
WJ
It doesn't.Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:39) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUAlso, again you make my point.
Your unbelief that God can be powerful enough to use men to record his words by inspiration does not change the fact that possibly hundreds of miillions do.
You seem to be conceding the possibility that Moses was many people.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:30) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:25) Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans? Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
STUI dont see how loving your enemys supports your explanation of turning the other cheek, do you?
WJ
It doesn't.Stuart
STUCorrect. So Jesus was speaking the truth and you are not!
WJ
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:39) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUAlso, again you make my point.
Your unbelief that God can be powerful enough to use men to record his words by inspiration does not change the fact that possibly hundreds of miillions do.
You seem to be conceding the possibility that Moses was many people.Stuart
STUNo that is merely your assumption!
WJ
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