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I believe Jesus is the literal Son of God, meaning He is God, just as a son of man is man, a son of a cat is a cat, etc.
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Tim, re-read what you wrote above. You have two things going on here – first you say that you believe Jesus is the literal Son of God, meaning he is God….WAIT. Is a literal son his Father? No. So you do not believe Jesus is the literal Son of God.Then you say, “….just as a son of man is man…..” This is another idea; producing after one's own “kind.” Jesus is the Son of God, but he is also the son of Mary. When you say that Jesus is God because God is God – and God produces after his own kind – in one swoop you have taken Mary completely out of the equation. Why?
Because God did not create Jesus by himself, he had a little help from Mary. And if you believe in “literal” conception, then you have to embrace the fact that Mary contributed to her son. BOOM, there it is! Jesus is a new person, never before on the scene (anywhere).
Now, if Jesus is an incarnation then God didn't need to go to all the hassle of finding a willing virgin. He could have just found some holy man and said, “Scoot over, I'm coming to dwell a long side of you.”
Having a “literal” Son of God is what saves our butts! We can now be reconciled and adopted.
I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says, “Jesus pre-existed not as a person but as a plan.”
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You wouldn't, would you? Sons are not usually spoken of as existing until they actually do!
Isaiah 49:1
“……..Before I was born the LORD called me; *from my birth* he has made mention of my name.”Jesus was “called” before his birth – but so were we (in him).
I think that when a man and a woman become one flesh, there are three persons.
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But then I investigated it more, read the repeated declaration in the Old Testament that there is no one else besides YHWH,
************************************There is no God but the One true God – the Father. You are deducing that Jesus is God. Otherwise, if that little problem was out of the way, I might assume you would still be contending for the One God of the Bible! God is a jealous God, Tim. I fear for those who have not yet given him his rightful place. We are to honor his Son as well; however,there will come a time when Jesus will turn *all* over to his Father so that God may be all in all. Thanks for the chat on this.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 24 2007,07:24) But then I investigated it more, read the repeated declaration in the Old Testament that there is no one else besides YHWH,
************************************There is no God but the One true God – the Father. You are deducing that Jesus is God. Otherwise, if that little problem was out of the way, I might assume you would still be contending for the One God of the Bible! God is a jealous God, Tim. I fear for those who have not yet given him his rightful place. We are to honor his Son as well; however,there will come a time when Jesus will turn *all* over to his Father so that God may be all in all. Thanks for the chat on this.
The trinity Jesus is another Jesus. Their Jesus is God the Father. To spite what Jesus taught. And who Jesus said to pray too!2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.Jesus the Image of God not God. The glory of God shown in Jesus His only begotten Son. Did this make the Son the Father? The Son had the Father. We have the Father are we the Father? No we are His children and brothers of Jesus the Christ.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.And no wonder they deny God by keeping the law of the Harlot. They love not the truth so God has allowed them to believe a lie.
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.Again:
You will know them by their fruits they are workers of lawlessness. Not keeping the Command of God but the triditions of men (the harlot) who deceives the Whole world or as my friends say the “many”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'Come out of her “Jesus' people”
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Not3in1,
Quote You have two things going on here – first you say that you believe Jesus is the literal Son of God, meaning he is God….WAIT. Is a literal son his Father? No. So you do not believe Jesus is the literal Son of God. I never said that Jesus is His Father. I really hoped you would know my belief on that by now, and I wouldn't have to keep defending myself against accusations of modalism. When I say the Son of God is God, it means that Jesus is of the same substance as the Father but is a distinct subsistence. As in, God begets God. What else would God beget?
Quote Then you say, “….just as a son of man is man…..” This is another idea; producing after one's own “kind.” Jesus is the Son of God, but he is also the son of Mary. When you say that Jesus is God because God is God – and God produces after his own kind – in one swoop you have taken Mary completely out of the equation. Why? Because God did not create Jesus by himself, he had a little help from Mary. And if you believe in “literal” conception, then you have to embrace the fact that Mary contributed to her son. BOOM, there it is! Jesus is a new person, never before on the scene (anywhere).
I have taken Mary out of the equation because it is ridiculous to say that **** provided a human sperm for Mary to conceive ****. The reason it takes two animals to beget is that an individual animal on its own is physically incapable of begetting on its own. But you can't say that God is deficient or needs “a little help” from someone in order to beget a Son. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory. Hebrews 1:3. Did God not radiate His glory before the physical birth of Jesus? Did God need Mary to help Him radiate His glory? No. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father's person. So is the exact representation of the Father someone who does not have the Father's nature?
Quote I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says, “Jesus pre-existed not as a person but as a plan.” *******************
You wouldn't, would you? Sons are not usually spoken of as existing until they actually do!
Isaiah 49:1
“……..Before I was born the LORD called me; *from my birth* he has made mention of my name.”Jesus was “called” before his birth – but so were we (in him).
My point was that Jesus is stated as existing prior to the virgin birth (Colossians 1:17, 1 Corinthians 10:4, John 8:58, 17:5, Philippians 2:6, Revelation 1:17), but nowhere does it say He wasn't actually a person but was only a plan.
When a man and a woman become one flesh, they conceive a child. Three persons, one flesh.
Quote There is no God but the One true God – the Father. You are deducing that Jesus is God. Otherwise, if that little problem was out of the way, I might assume you would still be contending for the One God of the Bible! God is a jealous God, Tim. I fear for those who have not yet given him his rightful place. We are to honor his Son as well; however,there will come a time when Jesus will turn *all* over to his Father so that God may be all in all. Thanks for the chat on this. Right, so if Jesus is not YHWH, then according to the Old Testament, He can't exist. Read my post from yesterday, where I said Jesus is called:
the First and the Last (Revelation 1:17; cf. Isaiah 41:4), our Savior (Titus 1:4; cf. Isaiah 43:11), the Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4; cf. Isaiah 44:8), the Lord of lords (Revelation 17:14; cf. Psalm 136:3), and the Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:6; cf. Psalm 24:7).
These titles are exclusive to YHWH. YHWH is Jealous and won’t share His glory with another. But that’s exactly what you’re saying He did in John 17:5 if Jesus isn’t YHWH. Read Isaiah 40-66 and you will see a host of exclusive attributes of YHWH that are given to Jesus. This isn’t possible unless Jesus is YHWH.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So Christ is not a son of Adam, or David, in short not a son of man at all?
Funny.
He preferred to say he was.I never said that Jesus is His Father. I really hoped you would know my belief on that by now
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Tim, you'll have to be patient with me. Trying to “understand” the Trinity is like trying to make sense of real estate bilaws or something for me. It just doesn't make logical sense, and so it's hard for me to remember all the “rules” that apply to getting this doctrine straight. I am not mocking you when I say things, it is simply that I don't get it (just so you know).Did God need Mary to help Him radiate His glory? No.
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Well, he certainly did bro! Jesus was born to Mary. How else do you think babies enter this world? I wouldn't tell your wife about this idea that you have (heehee). And Tim, what does all the ****** stand for anyway? Can you not even write the name God or Jesus? You do other times? I don't get you.but nowhere does it say He wasn't actually a person but was only a plan.
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Interestingly enough, it doesn't say how he existed, does it? Could be either a person OR a plan. We have to use our minds and logic to lead us. Did we pre-exist?When a man and a woman become one flesh, they conceive a child. Three persons, one flesh.
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This is ridiculous! And such a stretch that it's comical to me, I'm sorry. What about those of us who adopted children? What about baren women?you will see a host of exclusive attributes of YHWH that are given to Jesus. This isn’t possible unless Jesus is YHWH
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Attributes are “given” to Jesus by his Father. Jesus told us that by himself he can do nothing. Jesus told us that by himself, he is not even “good” – there is only one who is (his Daddy). God does not “share” the glory that belongs to him alone; however, his Son also has glory – the glory of the one and only begotten of God.I write **** because I can't bring myself to write God when referring to your version of the physical birth of Jesus.
I would hope you would agree that the general case when a man and a woman become one flesh is that they produce a child. Of course after the fall, the curse often prevents this, through infertility, barrenness, etc.
Quote Did God need Mary to help Him radiate His glory? No.
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Well, he certainly did bro!No, this would mean that God's radiance is not eternal, but had a finite beginning with the physical birth of Jesus. No. God is Light. His Radiance is eternal. And He doesn't need help from anyone to radiate His glory.
Quote Interestingly enough, it doesn't say how he existed, does it? Could be either a person OR a plan. We have to use our minds and logic to lead us. Did we pre-exist? No we didn't pre-exist. We weren't with God in the beginning. We're not before all things. All things weren't made through us. It does say He existed in the form of God (Philippians 2:6) and He was God (John 1:1). He is given the personal title of Lord in Hebrews 1:10, and it was said of Him before He was born, “You are the same,” in Psalm 102:26, quoted in Hebrews 1:12. Since before He was born, it is said of Jesus that He is the same, it's impossible for Him to change from a plan into a person.
Quote Attributes are “given” to Jesus by his Father Yes, all the attributes of the Father, everything that the Father has, is given to Jesus. John 16:15. This is what it means to be a true Son, He is everything that His Father is.
Quote God does not “share” the glory that belongs to him alone Yes, exactly. So Jesus says, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” John 17:5. Again, “the glory I had with You before the world was.” The Father and the Son had the same glory. But God does not share the glory that belongs to Him alone. But the Father shared His glory with the Son. This means that the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit with them, are God.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
“Yes, all the attributes of the Father, everything that the Father has, is given to Jesus. John 16:15. This is what it means to be a true Son, He is everything that His Father is.”So Jesus was God but did not have these attributes which his Father God had to give him??
So in what way was he God?
Does God lack?Tim writes:
I write **** because I can't bring myself to write God when referring to your version of the physical birth of Jesus.
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Thanks, Tim, for your honest answer. I will pray that God will set you free from this. God created sex; He is not offended by it and you should be either. His Son was born. Children are not born unless they are procreated. God provided what was needed, thus the VIRGIN birth.You write:
I would hope you would agree that the general case when a man and a woman become one flesh is that they produce a child. Of course after the fall, the curse often prevents this, through infertility, barrenness, etc.
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No, it is not the “general” case that when man and women have sex that they become pregant. I don't have time to go into women's cycle's and what is timing and what is chance in conceiving; suffice it to say that your idea is incorrect. If everytime people had sex they produced a child…………can you imagine? Goodness!You write:
This is what it means to be a true Son, He is everything that His Father is.
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A true son is not “everything that his father is.” Jesus did not have all knowledge, and the list could go on.You write:
The Father and the Son had the same glory
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Read the verses again, please. It does NOT say they had the same glory at all.You write:
This means that the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit with them, are God.
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For me, this is a scary deduction.Regarding Psalms 102 and Hebrews 1: the OT writers see God the same as the NT writers – that God is unchanging. Certainly he can fulfill his promises. Since God created the heavens and earth, and since he will not pass away, he is fit to promise an everlasting kingdom to his son.
Not3in1,
I think we've made our points. You don't believe the Nicene Creed, and I don't believe what you say about Jesus. I don't have anything else to add. Is there anything in the Nicene Creed you'd like to discuss?
Tim
Tim2, it's interesting how you like to shut me down. You've done this to me before. It must be that I hit something in you that you don't like? And then that's it – you're done and therefore I'm dismissed? It's interesting how you will go on and on with Nick or others – even pounding something so far into the ground that the topic is unrecognizable; whereas with me, I get dismissed……..whatever.
You remind me of my sister who used to hang up on me when she was downtown on the streets. If I said something she didn't like, she'd hang up on me. End of conversation. This feels a lot like that.
No. There isn't anything I would like to discuss with you regarding the Nicene Creed, thank you. If I say something you don't like – you may end the conversation.
Petty me
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 25 2007,15:22) Tim2, it's interesting how you like to shut me down. You've done this to me before. It must be that I hit something in you that you don't like? And then that's it – you're done and therefore I'm dismissed? It's interesting how you will go on and on with Nick or others – even pounding something so far into the ground that the topic is unrecognizable; whereas with me, I get dismissed……..whatever. You remind me of my sister who used to hang up on me when she was downtown on the streets. If I said something she didn't like, she'd hang up on me. End of conversation. This feels a lot like that.
No. There isn't anything I would like to discuss with you regarding the Nicene Creed, thank you. If I say something you don't like – you may end the conversation.
Petty me
The darkness flees from the light. But when Jesus comes all will be disclosed. No one will be deceived, all will know the truth. No one can fool God! God knows if you are ignorant.2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Repent!
Come out of her MY people.IHN&L,
Ken
Not3in1,
I'm sorry my response caused you offense. I'm not trying to shut you down. I feel that I have nothing more to say than on these points what I have already said. But you should feel free to continue to post.
I will say, I am uncomfortable with you praying for me, because you worship a different god (not Jesus) than I do (Jesus), and I don't want you praying to other gods about me, not that they can do anything to me.
Tim
Don't worry Tim, I don't have a voodoo doll with your name embroidered on it or anything
I worship God Almighty. Who do you worship? His Son?
I guess God Almighty “can't do anything to you” ? I'm confused? I think your false humility is causing you to error. Where does it say that if a brother or a sister does not profess Jesus is God Almighty, himself, don't have him pray for you? Goodness, Tim.
Not3in1,
I enjoy talking to you, though it can be frustrating. But you have to understand that we are not brother and sister. You don't believe in the same Jesus that I do. The one you believe in didn't exist more than 2000 years ago. The true Jesus laid the foundation of the earth. This is harsh but it is the truth and you need to hear it. Please repent and believe the truth.
Tim
Brother Tim,
Of course it's frustrating, we have different views. But we both believe in One heavenly Father – do we not? It is to him that we pray – do we not? God marked out the heavens and created the earth and everything on it and below it. He did all of this *through* Jesus, his Son. I cannot be your sister because I believe these things are true?
Besides, doesn't the Trinity doctrine teach that God consists of three persons who are all God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). I believe that the Father is God (as scripture explicitly teaches). But because I do not believe in implicit teachings that say Jesus is God as well, we cannot be a part of the same family of God? I'm sorry, I don't think that is scriptural? If it is, you'll have to show me. I'll wait outside the door in the cold and rain [shivering] until you come back……after all, you wouldn't want to invite in a stranger?
Not3in1,
The Father in Whom I believe has always been the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. But the one in whom you believe did not become a father until the physical birth of Jesus.
I understand your desire to be part of a peaceful family of God, but people who believe in different gods are not in the same spiritual family. The family of YHWH is commanded to purge the evil from its midst (Deuteronomy 17:7) by stoning to death anyone who serves other gods. Paul rebukes the church for bearing with anyone who proclaims a different Jesus. 2 Corinthians 11:4. So no, those who worship a different god and believe in a different Jesus are not part of the same spiritual family.
But you can come back to the fold by repenting and believing in the true Jesus.
Tim
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