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Hi,
Here is the Nicene creed.We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary
*************Scripture does not say this! It says “CONCEIVED” not incarnate. Boom! There it is!
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life
******************And exactly WHERE is the Holy Spirit called “the Lord and Giver of Life”
? Tim2, can you explain this creed to us using scripture line for line?
The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6
The Spirit is the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:17.Regarding incarnatation, I don't know what Greek word the Nicene council used, but it basically sums up John 1:14, the Word became flesh. Philippians 2:7 says He emptied Himself and took the form of a slave and was found in the appearance of a man. Hebrews 2:14-18 says He partook of flesh and blood and was made like His brethren in all things. This is summed up with “incarnate.”
Most of the creed seems pretty obviously straight out of Scripture. Even Arius, the super anti-Trinitarian of the day, agreed with everything except the “one substance” part. He wanted it to say, “like substance.”
Finding the Scripture about the Spirit giving life was good. Thanks for asking. I have a feeling most of the other Scriptures would be ones that get repeated here every day, but I'm happy to look for any more you would like.
Tim
Besides all the other things the Catholics do that Jesus said not too like calling themselves father ETC.
What about baptism?
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
How do Catholics baptize? Where were infants baptized in the bible?
This man made statement of faith is only to back up their false doctrine of the trinity, man must create, to comfort their own spirit.
Many denominations use creeds as their cornerstone.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 27 2007,19:36) The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6
The Spirit is the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:17.Regarding incarnatation, I don't know what Greek word the Nicene council used, but it basically sums up John 1:14, the Word became flesh. Philippians 2:7 says He emptied Himself and took the form of a slave and was found in the appearance of a man. Hebrews 2:14-18 says He partook of flesh and blood and was made like His brethren in all things. This is summed up with “incarnate.”
Most of the creed seems pretty obviously straight out of Scripture. Even Arius, the super anti-Trinitarian of the day, agreed with everything except the “one substance” part. He wanted it to say, “like substance.”
Finding the Scripture about the Spirit giving life was good. Thanks for asking. I have a feeling most of the other Scriptures would be ones that get repeated here every day, but I'm happy to look for any more you would like.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So INCARNATION relates to the Christ, the Son of God, and not to God?
Then what happened that Scripture says God was in Christ?Nick, you believe that the Son of God is something other than God? So the Son of Man is not man?
God was in Christ. John 14:10 -“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?” (quoted from the King James Version, Unisage)
Hi Tim2,
We know Christ came in the flesh[1Jn4. Jn2]
We know God was in Christ[2Cor 5, coll2]
So Christ cannot be the God that was in him.That's a poor deduction, Nick, since Jesus is God. John 1:1.
And before you bring out your “He WAS God” ridiculousness, remember that YHWH, Jesus, does not change. Psalm 102:27, Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 1:12.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Why is it that you forget God has a Son?
God is the one you speak about from scripture, not His Son.
Perhaps you need also to grasp that the Son, who is the same yesterday today and forever, can empty himself and be clothed in flesh and die without being different.
God, of course, is immortal.Hi,
Derived creeds bind men to each other in the divisions called denominations
but abiding in the pure words of God allows us to fellowship with the Father and the Son.Quote (Tim2 @ May 01 2007,17:01) Which denomination, is it, that doesn't believe in the Nicene Creed?
Tim, all the daughters follow their Mother the Harlot.Tim2,
I know you have thoroughly researched the creeds. I also have done a pretty good study on them (from both sides of the fence). I'm wondering what made you decide to embrace them? Was it just because all the churches do? Because I understand what it is like to sometimes stand alone and not have “church” fellowship. Especially if you are used to and enjoy church fellowship, this can be a hard pill to swallow (being put in the outer circle for not believing the creeds).Having history teach us, we realize that the creeds were passed through a ton of political push. Does that not bother you? These are sincere questions, by the way. And doesn't it bother you that the Holy Spirit wasn't added to make the Trinity until much, much later? Do you believe this is just the evolution of revelation? I don't know?
For me, the evidence seemed quite over-whelming that the creeds were man-made, and they were derived under-pressure, at that. I guess I'm just wondering if you have closed your eyes to some of the evidence that points to the creeds being myths that are handed down generation after generation? We all close our eyes to something we don't want to see. Every time I fill up the car, I shield my eyes from the total at the gas pump (gasp!)
I'm just saying……What have you done with the knowledge about the creeds that is questionable?
Hi Not3in1,
Thanks for your sincere question. I'm glad we can talk about this.
I did not embrace the creeds until very recently (around February), and it wasn't because I wanted to join the crowd in my church. I've always been pretty stubborn, as you can tell, and I've left several churches in the past over issues that are comparatively insignificant. But my stubborness isn't what justifies the creeds … I accepted the creeds because they were the only thing that made sense of the Bible, of Jesus Christ. About 2 years ago I gave up on the Trinity, the “Three in One,” as unbiblical. I concluded that the Father alone is God, Jesus is His Son somehow, and the Spirit was something else, and left it at that -3 divine beings, with the Father supreme. But this led me to struggle for 2 years in vain to understand who YHWH is relative to Jesus. I knew Jesus is the Son of YHWH, and that He is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament, but the New Testament's description of Jesus (see one of my recent posts in the Debates) elevates Him to a status very close (at least) to YHWH, and I couldn't understand this. I kept wondering, “Why isn't Jesus, this divine being so much like YHWH, mentioned in the Old Testament? And why does the Old Testament deny that there any such beings?” And this shook my faith, for the Old Testament repeatedly declares that those who serve other gods will be destroyed (e.g. Deuteronomy 13, 17). This was steadily eroding my faith, for I knew that if Jesus were another god besides YHWH, then the New Testament was a lie.
But thankfully I was able to discuss this with some friends, and as we discussed the doctrine of consubstantiality, I understood that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit could be, and had to be, one God, YHWH. And my faith was incredibly strengthened to learn that Jesus is in fact YHWH, as Romans 10:13 declares, and as the New Testament declares when it calls Him titles belonging solely to YHWH: the First and the Last (Revelation 1:17; cf. Isaiah 41:4), our Savior (Titus 1:4; cf. Isaiah 43:11), the Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4; cf. Isaiah 44:8), the Lord of lords (Revelation 17:14; cf. Psalm 136:3), and the Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:6; cf. Psalm 24:7).
And of course, when I saw that the evidence for the Trinity was at the very beginning of the Bible, contained in the image of God as male and female (Genesis 1:27), two who are one flesh (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:6), I understood that the Nicene Creed expressed God perfectly by declaring the Son to be one substance with the Father.
I know there was political pressure on the saints throughout their history. But men such as Athanasius and Hilary of Poitiers went into exile and risked their lives to defend this doctrine, even when the Empire had officially adopted Arianism in the Blasphemy of Sirmium. And I know that the Nicene Creed has had details added and details removed, but none of these concern consubstantiality or the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I would ask you to judge the creeds by Scripture alone, which I'm sure you do, so what do you find to be unscriptural about them?
Tim
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your post. You joined this forum in April, so I see that you didn't waste any time after you embraced the creeds (Feb.) to maybe try your knowledge out on us? You're doing a fine job at presenting your side of things here. You're a strong Trinitarian voice!You write:
I concluded that the Father alone is God, Jesus is His Son somehow, and the Spirit was something else, and left it at that -3 divine beings, with the Father supreme. But this led me to struggle for 2 years in vain to understand who YHWH is relative to Jesus.
******************************
It sounds to me like you abandoned the Trinity, but then really didn't get a full grasp on who and what Jesus was. Did you ever wonder about Jesus being the literal Son of God? When you follow the reasoning out, it certainly is allowed for throughout the tenor of the Bible. May I ask you how you struggled during those two years to know who Jesus was/is? Did you visit with Pastor's or just study on your own?You write:
I kept wondering, “Why isn't Jesus, this divine being so much like YHWH, mentioned in the Old Testament?
*****************************
Because Jesus wasn't born yet. Jesus is only like God in that he is the Son of God. In and of himself, Jesus admitted that he can do nothing.You write:
But thankfully I was able to discuss this with some friends, and as we discussed the doctrine of consubstantiality, I understood that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit could be, and had to be, one God, YHWH.
**********************************
With all due respect, it sounds like your “friends” were bias towards the Trinity. What would have been better would be an interview with both sides of the issue so that you could make a informed decision. You can't see both sides of the coin if you don't flip the coin over.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit don't “have to be” God. There are other choices that scripture lends itself to. But you have picked this choice and so everything you see now will reflect it. It's kinda like buying a Jeep and then all of a sudden you see Jeep's everywhere on the freeway – where as before, you never noticed them.You write:
And of course, when I saw that the evidence for the Trinity was at the very beginning of the Bible, contained in the image of God as male and female (Genesis 1:27), two who are one flesh (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:6), I understood that the Nicene Creed expressed God perfectly by declaring the Son to be one substance with the Father.
********************
You may not be aware, but what you have written is not evidence for the Trinity. The Trinity requires 3 “persons.”You write:
But men such as Athanasius and Hilary of Poitiers went into exile and risked their lives to defend this doctrine,
************************
And there were those who were sent into exile for not believing. Many more were under the sword to sign, as I'm sure you are aware. History surrounding the Nicene Creed and others is a bloody one. We could go over to the creed forum and discuss line by line the scriptural evidence, if you wish?Tim, thank you for sharing all of this with me. I want to encourage you in your faith. I know what it is like to look at all the evidence for many views and become overwhelmed (or even full of despair). But as I have done this, there is only one answer that came to me, and that of God – he is One. The ideas that you were struggling with do have reasonable answers to them. The answers allow the God of the OT to be the very same God of the NT. God does not change.
Hi Not3in1,
I believe Jesus is the literal Son of God, meaning He is God, just as a son of man is man, a son of a cat is a cat, etc. I don't believe God requires someone else in order to beget a true Son. And I know that Jesus preexisted as a person, for He is before all things (Colossians 1:17). I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says, “Jesus pre-existed not as a person but as a plan.”
Actually, the friend I discussed this with was an Arian. What he said made a lot of sense to me, and was what I had been believing for years. But then I investigated it more, read the repeated declaration in the Old Testament that there is no one else besides YHWH, and we discussed it with a Trinitarian friend, I converted to Trinitarianism, and now my Arian friend has converted as well.
I think that when a man and a woman become one flesh, there are three persons.
I know the history of the Nicene Creed is bloody, as is the history of Israel and the church, and all of human history. But the Truth is prevailing.
I know that the God of the OT is the same God of the NT, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I'm happy to discuss the Nicene Creed or any other creed with you, line by line.
Tim
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