New/Old Testament

[NickHassan]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,06:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,05:42) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,20:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2008,20:34) Hi SOL, But no matter what you say to try to bolster your perverse doctrine Paul he was an inspired man of God. Are you? Peter and James disagreed with you. Go ahead and quote 2 Peter if you want, but Peter didn't write it. My doctrine is not perverse. Your belief in a God of Love and Light who dwells in darkness and orders murder, rape and sacrifice is perverse. You will know them by their fruit.  Can a fig tree grow figs and olives? Hi SOL, God allows. He is not a patronising God Who stops all evil. Men murder at the instigation of their master, the one who was a murderer from the beginning. Who first lied and who first delivered a death sentence? Answer honestly.

Hi SOL,
God refused access to man to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but offered access to, but they never took adavntage of the offer, the tree of life.

The serpent Satan appealed to her intellectual independance and accused God of deceit in his lying speech to Eve.

They chose to rather follow him as their father/god.

They were cast out and were no longer were given access to the tree of life.

They died as a result within a day as foretold[1000yrs].

[Son of Light]

Young's literal translation

Genesis 3
1And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'

2And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,

3and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'

4And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,

5for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it — your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

6And the woman seeth that the tree [is] good for food, and that it [is] pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make [one] wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;

7and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they [are] naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.

8And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

9And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'

10and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

11And He saith, `Who hath declared to thee that thou [art] naked? of the tree of which I have commanded thee not to eat, hast thou eaten?'

12and the man saith, `The woman whom Thou didst place with me — she hath given to me of the tree — and I do eat.'

13And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What [is] this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget — and I do eat.'

14And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed [art] thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

15and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee — the head, and thou dost bruise him — the heel.'

16Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband [is] thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

17And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed [is] the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life,

18and thorn and bramble it doth bring forth to thee, and thou hast eaten the herb of the field;

19by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou [art], and unto dust thou turnest back.'

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.

21And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' —

23Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;

24yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Open your eyes and dont let tradition tell you what you are reading.

We learn:

1. God said they would die THAT DAY. Dying thou doest die, in otherwords you are already dying but when you eat the fruit you will die that very day. You bring up a verse about the future coming of Christ and insert it into the genesis account 1000 years to a day verse. I can demonstrate more verses that say 40 years equals a day to God. This is just not very honest.

2. The serpent promised their eyes would be open and they would be like the Jehovah elohim knowing good and evil.

3. They ate the fruit and did not die THAT DAY. We learn they did indeed become like the elohim just as the serpent promised. In fact the serpent did not lie about ANYTHING AT ALL.

4. In anger the Jehovah gods kicks them out of the garden so that they cannont eat of the tree of life and live forever. Adam and Eve were not created immortal they were booted out of paradise so that they would not be able to eat and live forever. As if an omnipotent God had to worry about his creations rivaling him. Ah, but a fallen angel might have to worry. They where ALREADY DYING. They did not die because of eating of the tree of knowledge they where created in a state of mortality.

5. Adam used to walk with God in the cool of the day. What angel was he walking with? The angel who has to ask “Adam where are you? and what have you done?” not very omniscient either. Perhaps, an angel like the Cherub desribed in Ezekiel 28:

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (michaels @ Jan. 10 2008,11:03)

[/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,02:55) Quote (michaels @ Jan. 09 2008,16:15) Son wrote: The essence of what I am saying is that: Jesus and his followers did not believe God the Most High did any of those bad things in the OT. These actions were credited to fallen angels. 2000 years later Christians are twisting their morality into a pretzel trying to justify the actions of whom they think their God is.   I have made my mind up on what is wrong and what is right morally speaking.  I am open to discussion of any scriptural topic with honesty and sincerity.   But yes my moral compass will not be swayed. I could very well be convinced of something I am misunderstanding historically and scripturally, however. Think about this: If I am wrong and the Most High does do things that are evil: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things” (Isa. 45:5-7).   Then I will have to apologize for not accepting that God is above his own Law and will have to bow my knee to him and acknowledge he IS the God of love while he punishes me with his wrath. If I am right then you guys have a lot of explaining to do as well.  Believing that the Most High commits acts of evil and orders the rape of women…etc.. How hurt will God be when he holds out his arms and says: My child, I am the God of Love. The Father of Light and in me in no shadow of turning. I do not want to kill I want to give life and give it abundantly. hey sol ,your not far from the truth for he is the truth and the light. he has no shadow of turning.unchanging love.he is the great (I AM).jesus sums up ex 20 with just the two love commandments.to show clearly that GOD never changes.this is the whole law.and you are correct god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill. that would make him a liar ,and who wants to hang out with a liar anyways,you know he would have to cast himself into the lake of fire, what a joke truly sad how long the whole world has been decieved,this liar /murderer.is not my god , my god is the light,life, love ,truth,way,everything good,yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire, may the TRUTH lead you into all TRUTH. michaels You are talking in circles. First you say… Quote god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill. Then you say… Quote yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire, I assume that the God that said dont kill is the one who will judge those who do not accept the light by casting them in fire. Is that right?

Michael, you say…

Quote

does fire kill or just pureify and clean ?

How about both! Do you think anything purged by fire is the same afterwords, or did it die?

Do you think anything alive purged by fire feels no pain?

How about Sodom and Gomorrha? Do you think it was evil for God to purge the earth of those two wicked cities who were committing every lude act imaginable to men? Yet God did include their woman and children in his judgment!

Jesus said…

Matt 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mk 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Lk 10:12
But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

Lk 17:29
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

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are you saying its wrong for god to make his children pure ?

Not at all, for I believe in the righteous judgments of God.

I believe in his sovereignty, and that he can do what ever he wants with his creation for it was made by him and for him.

How about you? Do you believe God is all powerfull?

If you say yes then you have to admit that God must be evil to let all this wickedness to continue.

He has the power to stop it dosnt he? When God looks down from heaven and sees little children getting raped, tortured, murdered and every imaginable evil being done to them why dosnt he just stop it? It would be nothing for God to just take that evil person committing that act out of his place. God wouldnt even have to kill him.

Can you explain this?

Or do you have to admit we dont know a whole lot about God and his nature?

Matt 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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is not the spirit eternal?

Yep!

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can you truly say this puni shment is not out of love ,for our own good that we may dwell in his presence forever.

Can you say the judgments and punishments found in the Hebrew text are not out of Love and mercy?

What of the great deluge?

Matt 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Is it any less cruel of the judgment and wrath of God to drown thousands of men woman and children to purge the earth of the then known wicked world than to kill the first born of Egypt?

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who is the judge that will send the spirts where he may,is it not jesus,or is it the most high, (love)?

Exactly, you are making my point. Who are we to question him?

[Son of Light]

first of all who made those judgements? the Jehovah gods or the Most High? As for future Judgement I don't believe in hell fire and brimstone. (like many other groups of NON GREEK christians of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries.)

Second of all you don't see my point because you have had a lifetime of indoctrination blinding you from seeing that bad is bad regardless of who does it or for what reason.

Do not resist evil with evil. (this is new testament) You make an exception that God resists evil with evil under the pretense of righteousness wrath. Thats like saying God uses good bad. Doesn't make much sense.

I say the Most High is Light and in him is no shadow of turning. If he is going to judge with punishment it will be these principalities and powers and they will simply die like men without his spirit, metaphorically tossed into the trash (gehenna). No pain or suffering just no more light and complete darkness.

[kenrch]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,19:58)

first of all who made those judgements? the Jehovah gods or the Most High? As for future Judgement I don't believe in hell fire and brimstone. (like many other groups of NON GREEK christians of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries.) Second of all you don't see my point because you have had a lifetime of indoctrination blinding you from seeing that bad is bad regardless of who does it or for what reason. Do not resist evil with evil. (this is new testament) You make an exception that God resists evil with evil under the pretense of righteousness wrath. Thats like saying God uses good bad. Doesn't make much sense. I say the Most High is Light and in him is no shadow of turning. If he is going to judge with punishment it will be these principalities and powers and they will simply die like men without his spirit, metaphorically tossed into the trash (gehenna). No pain or suffering just no more light and complete darkness.

SOL is there righteous anger?

[kenrch]

Is there such a thing as “rotten to the core”?

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

[Son of Light]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:40)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,19:58) first of all who made those judgements?  the Jehovah gods or the Most High?  As for future Judgement I don't believe in hell fire and brimstone. (like many other groups of NON GREEK christians of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries.) Second of all you don't see my point because you have had a lifetime of indoctrination blinding you from seeing that bad is bad regardless of who does it or for what reason. Do not resist evil with evil. (this is new testament) You make an exception that God resists evil with evil under the pretense of righteousness wrath.  Thats like saying God uses good bad. Doesn't make much sense. I say the Most High is Light and in him is no shadow of turning. If he is going to judge with punishment it will be these principalities and powers and they will simply die like men without his spirit, metaphorically tossed into the trash (gehenna). No pain or suffering just no more light and complete darkness. SOL is there righteous anger?

yes I think there is. I am angered and I feel justifiably so at seeing pedophiles on tv.

But the spirit says be angry but do not sin.

Righteous anger and Righteous wrath are not the same thing.

[kenrch]

Are we to continue to let the murderer~ murder?

[Son of Light]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:28)

Are we to continue to let the murderer~ murder?

fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers.

Those not in the Light police themselves and us.

But remember the early christians who willing went to the slaughter like lambs. They would not hurt anyone they did not love this world as to shrink from death.

I can say this but I confess I am weak. Would I have that courage? Not sure if I would, but I still press towards the light hoping to be perfected.

[kenrch]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 11 2008,02:38)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:28) Are we to continue to let the murderer~ murder? fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers. Those not in the Light police themselves and us. But remember the early christians who willing went to the slaughter like lambs. They would not hurt anyone they did not love this world as to shrink from death. I can say this but I confess I am weak. Would I have that courage? Not sure if I would, but I still press towards the light hoping to be perfected.

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fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers.

Do you think the Father agrees with stopping murders from murdering?

What if the person refuses to repent? As before the flood?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:41)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 11 2008,02:38) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:28) Are we to continue to let the murderer~ murder? fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers. Those not in the Light police themselves and us. But remember the early christians who willing went to the slaughter like lambs.  They would not hurt anyone they did not love this world as to shrink from death. I can say this but I confess I am weak.  Would I have that courage?  Not sure if I would, but I still press towards the light hoping to be perfected. Quote fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers. Do you think the Father agrees with stopping murders from murdering? What if the person refuses to repent?  As before the flood?

kenrch

According to their view Evil will triumph for God is powerless since his nature demands that God cant kill or destroy.

I cant see how they view this because if God is all powerfull as I believe he is, then why dosnt he use his power to stop all the evil that he sees, like little children being raped and tortured?

Since they claim to have the light and we are in darkness then why dont they explain this to us?

[seek and you will find]

W.J. I believe that all will have a chance in the Milinium, when Satan has been put away and only the truth is being taught. Then Satan will be loosed again, and if they then fall away, for them there is instant dead. That is what I read in Rev.

seek and you will find

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:59)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:41) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 11 2008,02:38) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:28) Are we to continue to let the murderer~ murder? fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers. Those not in the Light police themselves and us. But remember the early christians who willing went to the slaughter like lambs.  They would not hurt anyone they did not love this world as to shrink from death. I can say this but I confess I am weak.  Would I have that courage?  Not sure if I would, but I still press towards the light hoping to be perfected. Quote fortunately, society exists with laws in dealing with murderers. Do you think the Father agrees with stopping murders from murdering? What if the person refuses to repent?  As before the flood? kenrch According to their view Evil will triumph for God is powerless since his nature demands that God cant kill or destroy. I cant see how they view this because if God is all powerfull as I believe he is, then why dosnt he use his power to stop all the evil that he sees, like little children being raped and tortured? Since they claim to have the light and we are in darkness then why dont they explain this to us?

I will explain my “thought” on this without claiming absolute dogmatic accuracy.

Both models have the inherent question of why God does not immeaditely act. Your model, Nicks model and My model all have this conundrum. It is abit unfair to pretend only my model has this dillemma.

My answer is that he wants us trapped souls to walk towards the light so that he does not replace the previous fallen sons of his with a new batch of wicked sons.

God is so much more powerful and wise as to be able to figure out how to stop evil without flying into bloody acts of rage and vengeance.

The main difference is that you believe Jehovah is the Most High God. I believe that he is a fallen principality and power, the one who governed over Israel.

Does God stop a rapist? Maybe, he does sometimes I do not know. But, turn on the news and you will see that mostly he does not. Why? Because Jehovah and the other principalities and powers are the gods of this world.

The Most High is offering us to be set free from our elohim makers. The spirit inside of us can return to him and evacuate this prison planet. The spirit breathed into us by the elohim is by it's nature part of the first source of all spirit.

A spiritual genetic link to the Most High. It is this part of us that can return to him. The fleshy matter we are trapped in was formed by the elohim binding us. All spirit is a gradiation or emanation from the first spirit. Matter has nothing in common with the Most High. It was the rebellious elohim (far more powerful spirits than us) that trapped our weaker spirits in matter.

In one sense we are sons of the most high through spirit but in reality we were created by fallen angels (elohim). We can be ADOPTED and evacuated from this cannibal planet to meet be with our Father.

The Fall was falling into Matter. We are trapped by the rulers of the darkness of this world.

I believe God will succeed in his great rescue mission of perfecting sons and rescueing hostages.

[NickHassan]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 11 2008,09:05)

W.J. I believe that all will have a chance in the Milinium, when Satan has been put away and only the truth is being taught. Then Satan will be loosed again, and if they then fall away, for them there is instant dead. That is what I read in Rev. seek and you will find

Hi say,
Of course only a selected number of natural humans will be alive in the Millenium. The second resurrection follows it.

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