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for me it realy comes down to what did jesus say, and then what did jesus realy say or not say.hmmm sad that there are so many lies in most of the books.
Does God dwell in Light or Darkness?
The Father
1 Jn 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
1 Timothy 6:15-16
He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”
James 1
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Jehovah
1 Kg.8:12, 2 Chronicles 6:1
The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
Psalm 18:11
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,01:29) Quote (michaels @ Jan. 09 2008,17:27) how many stand behind you in your firm beliefs ,just you and god ,or many .do you have a place of worship or do you just go out and worship him at a pile of unhewn stones where he put his name.you seem to be almost as out there as me, ha ha you know thats allright we are not to be part of this world anyways,come out of her my children ,as FATHER would say,for he is the truth.
Just my wife and I. I have a family that is very orthodox. A few of them will listen to me though and agree with many things I say.
just my wife and 4 chidren also,tried to share with family,dident fly so well,yet it is writen ,but gods word will not go out voidQuote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,07:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2008,07:08) Hi SOL,
So myths and legends are the soul of your new religion?
The same accusation could be thrown your way Nick.The only claim you have is a firm belief that the bible is a perfect holy book. Without any evidence for this belief. Again I ask what prophecy or oracle tells you the bible is true. I suspect only your heart guides you.
I then ask are you completely honest. Does you heart really tell you this?
The evidence suggest, to the best of my ability to interpret the work of scholars, that the bible is a creation of the proto-orthadox catholics who followed Paul the scismatic.
I don't hate Paul or the Church Fathers. I think in many ways they were sincere. Regardless, the evidence says they are scismatics from The Way.
I know all about Paul, Michaels.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,12:56)
SOLFirst, you take the greek gospels and believe Jesus literally said everything they say that he said without the possiblity of human interpolation.
So why dont you give us your source and apparantly the infallable text that you put your trust in!
Again very convenient for you to pick and choose scriptures.
And so we should believe the writtings of other men that were not eyewitnesses of the accounts, or maybe some new translations or text.
Quote Even though different gospels recording these events have him saying different things which prooves that men were recording their traditions or interpretations of what he said. How would you know this? Were you there? Can you give me some examples?
Quote
Second, the evidence is overwhelming Jesus's type of Judaism was Essene. We know what the essene's believed about the scriptures of the pharisees.Do you know what they believed? How do you know that your source has not been tampered with? What makes you so sure that what you read is infallable?
How would your evidence have more credibility than the scriptures?
Quote Christianity has tacked on pharisee scriptures to Jesus's message. Where is the proof?
Quote Lastly, I don't believe God is going to burn anybody. I could be wrong, but I believe that if anybody is going to be destroyed it is the fallen angels. Angels becoming men and walking among us continuing a cycle of evil on this earth. The fallen angels are the sons of darkness. If Gods Love is as you say, then why would he destroy anything that was part of his creation?
Tell us why God would destroy the sons of darkness.
At one time wasnt you a son of darkness?
Love is supposed to be passive and mooshy right?
How can Gods Love save some and destroy these others?
Maybe their destruction will be merciful right?
Thats right, the other fallen beings/angels created the earth and the sun, right?
Or do you also deny these scriptures…
Jn 1:3
*All things* were made by him; and *without him* was not any thing made that was made.Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.Acts 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Col 1:16
For by him were *all things created*, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote
This is what the essenes believed.So you would believe the traditions of the essenes over the eyewitness accounts in the scriptures?
How do you know what you read about the essenes is true? Do you claim their writtings as being inspired by God?
Quote
Jesus taught that we need to wake up and stop following wicked angel-men, like Nero.Show me where he taught about angel-men!
Quote Follow Christ towards the light. Christ is the light!
Quote It is not I who blaspheme it is those that credit to the Most High the evil actions of fallen angels. Nobody has accused you of blaspheme, but apparantly you accuse us because we believe the Torah and the Tanakh and the GT.
Yet you put your trust in other man made documents. Does your source claim to be the inspired word of God?
Quote THE MOST HIGH DOES NOT ORDER RAPE AND MURDER. HE DOES NOT ENJOY THE SWEET SAVOR OF A BURNING CARCASE. THE MOST HIGH GOD CAN AND WILL PUNISH IDOLOTRY, SIN, AND WICKEDNESS.
His wrath and judgment is revealed against such.
Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Eph 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.Do you think it would be Love for God to let wickedness go unpunished?
The Most High God is not under mans law for he created it and is above it!
Quote WAKE UP, SLEEPERS! Amazing how you put yourself above all those who do not believe your theology. You have many times now alluded to our blindness and darkness and implied that we are children of satan.
Do you believe the words of Jesus?…
Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”SOL, your theology cast aside a lot of the Torah, Tanakh and the GT.
Yet you have shown no basis for your action.
when god came to us he couldent show his full glory so he was masked by clouds yet we could see him he filled the whole sky ,and in his womb was jesus and jesus grew to fill the whole sky huge above us jesus was not masked by the clouds we could see him clearly and spikes of light like a crown shooting out in every direction on his head,we couldent see the father any more yet we knew he was there right behind jesus above him and even bigger,then we heard the most beautiful sound of praise to him we had ever heard,it was the earth praising him,the melody was so wonderful,wish me remembered how it went,any how we thought of the scropture if you dont praise me even the rocks would cry out,so we fell on our knees and started praising him,then all these squigly lights started like floating down like shooting down and hitting the earth every where ,and as soon as they hit the earth every thing turned green,this was a brown desert. god renewed the earth then all these animals started comeing to the land,any how when we left me cut off branches to show my family we went to my sisters,and told her about the judgement of the dead and other thing,got her to come outside to see it all,because we could still see GOD on the mountain and all the angles,they were draging some people to judgement ,and the one that went to the right got drug into a pit in the hills the ones on the left went up in the sky till they disapeared,any how me and my wife and kids were trying to show my sister all thet was happing and she coudent see it ,so me think you need to be in the spirt,yet me do believe no flesh has seen god.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,14:17) WJ, I wanted to also mention that the essenes did not think that the scriptures did not containt truth or that they did not contain oracles of God.
They believed:
The evil acts were of angels not God.
That they had been corrupted by lies and interpolations of jewish scribes.
SOLIf they are corrupt then they are unreliable.
Therfore it would be each man for his own to decipher what is truth.
I personally believe God is big enough to preserve his truth.
For instance, men have tried to destroy the bible for centurys, by burning and murdering those who use it.
Yet the Holy scritpures has remained, and is still the number one selling book on the planet and always has been.
The Bible has had more influence than any other source on the planet in mens lives.
True men have used it for both good and evil, yet his truth remains and will not pass.
You pick and choose if you like my friend.
However you will not find any recorded words of Yeshua that says such.
Jesus had plenty of confidence in the written scriptures, both the Law and the Prophets.
He even said not one jot nor tiitle will pass untill all be fulfilled.
But of course that is not his words to you, right?
Quote (michaels @ Jan. 09 2008,16:15) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,16:42) The essence of what I am saying is that: Jesus and his followers did not believe God the Most High did any of those bad things in the OT.
These actions were credited to fallen angels.
2000 years later Christians are twisting their morality into a pretzel trying to justify the actions of whom they think their God is.
I have made my mind up on what is wrong and what is right morally speaking. I am open to discussion of any scriptural topic with honesty and sincerity.
But yes my moral compass will not be swayed.
I could very well be convinced of something I am misunderstanding historically and scripturally, however.
Think about this:
If I am wrong and the Most High does do things that are evil:
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things” (Isa. 45:5-7).
Then I will have to apologize for not accepting that God is above his own Law and will have to bow my knee to him and acknowledge he IS the God of love while he punishes me with his wrath.
If I am right then you guys have a lot of explaining to do as well. Believing that the Most High commits acts of evil and orders the rape of women…etc.. How hurt will God be when he holds out his arms and says:
My child, I am the God of Love. The Father of Light and in me in no shadow of turning. I do not want to kill I want to give life and give it abundantly.
hey sol ,your not far from the truth for he is the truth and the light. he has no shadow of turning.unchanging love.he is the great (I AM).jesus sums up ex 20 with just the two love commandments.to show clearly that GOD never changes.this is the whole law.and you are correct god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill. that would make him a liar ,and who wants to hang out with a liar anyways,you know he would have to cast himself into the lake of fire, what a joke truly sad how long the whole world has been decieved,this liar /murderer.is not my god , my god is the light,life, love ,truth,way,everything good,yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire, may the TRUTH lead you into all TRUTH.
michaelsYou are talking in circles.
First you say…
Quote
god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill.Then you say…
Quote
yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire,I assume that the God that said dont kill is the one who will judge those who do not accept the light by casting them in fire.
Is that right?
WJ,
I dont mean any offense to you. In fact, I have every reason to believe you a descent person who loves God and seeks truth.
What I can say is that from my perspective after my epiphany when I look at Christians it saddens my heart. I don't mean to insult you when I say you are deceived but I do believe you are blinded by the god of this world.
We can argue all day long about details of the history of the canon and the different groups of early christians and the teachings of the essenes. But i encourage you to search these things yourself, because I believe only then do people honestly consider what is truth. otherwise we all just put up walls.
From my perspective it is a terrible veil that covers christians when they nod their head in understanding as they read the exploits of Jehovah.
The believe that the God of Love dwelt in a cloud of darkness giving orders to murder children and rape girls. He even caused his servants to sacrifice children to him.
I hope your heart stings at least a bit when you read these things.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,19:05) WJ, I dont mean any offense to you. In fact, I have every reason to believe you a descent person who loves God and seeks truth.
What I can say is that from my perspective after my epiphany when I look at Christians it saddens my heart. I don't mean to insult you when I say you are deceived but I do believe you are blinded by the god of this world.
We can argue all day long about details of the history of the canon and the different groups of early christians and the teachings of the essenes. But i encourage you to search these things yourself, because I believe only then do people honestly consider what is truth. otherwise we all just put up walls.
From my perspective it is a terrible veil that covers christians when they nod their head in understanding as they read the exploits of Jehovah.
The believe that the God of Love dwelt in a cloud of darkness giving orders to murder children and rape girls. He even caused his servants to sacrifice children to him.
I hope your heart stings at least a bit when you read these things.
SOLHere is what I say to you!
When Yeshua, 34 years ago reached down and called me out of darkness into his marvelous light, he totally set me free from drugs and bondage and began a work in me taking the world out of me.
The scriptures were life to me as the Holy Spirit enlightened his truths daily. His words were life and bread to my soul.
I fell in love with Yeshua and the Holy Scriptures and began seeking out his truth.
For 34 years I have grown to love Yeshua intimatly through his Spirit revealing his scriptures and enlightening them to me.
I have witnessed many miracles and signs through the preaching of his word (Scriptures).
I remember the glorious day and moment Yeshua became real to me and his words life.
I have not changed my God nor faltered, and through the Holy Spirit and the Bible as well as other study helps I have come to a deep relationship with my God.
I have learned to hear and follow the leading of his Spirit, and not once in 34 has the Spirit ever witnessed to me that a scripture in the Bible is false.
2 Tim 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.Why would I cast the pearls aside to go after a stone?
Thanks for you sharing your testamony. I believe you are sincere.
If you worship God as revealed by his son then fantastic.
My concern is look at the Christian Right and their warmongering. Look at those who persecute gays and lesbians. The list goes on and on of those imitating the actions of Jehovah from the OT and not Jesus from the NT.
War everywhere and initiated by Christains, Jews and Muslims. All of them thinking YHWH/ALLAH are behind it.
I want you to think of something.
You quote II Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Lets break this down:
1. The Pastoral epistles are the most disputed of all of Paul's work.
2. Paul was not talking about the bible you own. He was talking about the bible he and timothy used, the septuagint.
You use the Masoretic text that was swapped out by jerome 400 years later.3. Paul was talking only about the Septuagint and not any form of a New Testament.
Hi SOL,
But no matter what you say to try to bolster your perverse doctrine
Paul he was an inspired man of God.
Are you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2008,20:34) Hi SOL,
But no matter what you say to try to bolster your perverse doctrine
Paul he was an inspired man of God.
Are you?
Peter and James disagreed with you.Go ahead and quote 2 Peter if you want, but Peter didn't write it.
My doctrine is not perverse.
Your belief in a God of Love and Light who dwells in darkness and orders murder, rape and sacrifice is perverse.
You will know them by their fruit. Can a fig tree grow figs and olives?
Another lovely comparison of YHWH and the Father of Jesus:
Psalm 137:8-9
8Babylon, you are doomed!
I pray the Lord's blessings
on anyone who punishes you
for what you did to us.
9May the Lord bless everyone
who beats your children
against the rocks!
The Little Children and Jesus ~ Luke 18:15-16
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,21:00) Another lovely comparison of YHWH and the Father of Jesus: Psalm 137:8-9
8Babylon, you are doomed!
I pray the Lord's blessings
on anyone who punishes you
for what you did to us.
9May the Lord bless everyone
who beats your children
against the rocks!
The Little Children and Jesus ~ Luke 18:15-16
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
SOLBut again, which one is more evil?
Babies being smashed against rocks or being burned to death with sulfur?
Or drowning?
Jesus mentioned both of these in comparison to his comming.
Do you deny the destruction of Sodom and Gamorah and the flood?
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,20:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2008,20:34) Hi SOL,
But no matter what you say to try to bolster your perverse doctrine
Paul he was an inspired man of God.
Are you?
Peter and James disagreed with you.Go ahead and quote 2 Peter if you want, but Peter didn't write it.
My doctrine is not perverse.
Your belief in a God of Love and Light who dwells in darkness and orders murder, rape and sacrifice is perverse.
You will know them by their fruit. Can a fig tree grow figs and olives?
Hi SOL,
God allows.
He is not a patronising God Who stops all evil.
Men murder at the instigation of their master, the one who was a murderer from the beginning.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,05:42) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,20:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2008,20:34) Hi SOL,
But no matter what you say to try to bolster your perverse doctrine
Paul he was an inspired man of God.
Are you?
Peter and James disagreed with you.Go ahead and quote 2 Peter if you want, but Peter didn't write it.
My doctrine is not perverse.
Your belief in a God of Love and Light who dwells in darkness and orders murder, rape and sacrifice is perverse.
You will know them by their fruit. Can a fig tree grow figs and olives?
Hi SOL,
God allows.
He is not a patronising God Who stops all evil.
Men murder at the instigation of their master, the one who was a murderer from the beginning.
Who first lied and who first delivered a death sentence?Answer honestly.
Hi SOL,
God cannot lie.
The Truth he sent cannot lie.
It is in the nature of common men to do so.
Their father was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,06:23) Who first lied and who first delivered a death sentence? Answer honestly.
1 John 3:8
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,02:55) Quote (michaels @ Jan. 09 2008,16:15) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,16:42) The essence of what I am saying is that: Jesus and his followers did not believe God the Most High did any of those bad things in the OT.
These actions were credited to fallen angels.
2000 years later Christians are twisting their morality into a pretzel trying to justify the actions of whom they think their God is.
I have made my mind up on what is wrong and what is right morally speaking. I am open to discussion of any scriptural topic with honesty and sincerity.
But yes my moral compass will not be swayed.
I could very well be convinced of something I am misunderstanding historically and scripturally, however.
Think about this:
If I am wrong and the Most High does do things that are evil:
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things” (Isa. 45:5-7).
Then I will have to apologize for not accepting that God is above his own Law and will have to bow my knee to him and acknowledge he IS the God of love while he punishes me with his wrath.
If I am right then you guys have a lot of explaining to do as well. Believing that the Most High commits acts of evil and orders the rape of women…etc.. How hurt will God be when he holds out his arms and says:
My child, I am the God of Love. The Father of Light and in me in no shadow of turning. I do not want to kill I want to give life and give it abundantly.
hey sol ,your not far from the truth for he is the truth and the light. he has no shadow of turning.unchanging love.he is the great (I AM).jesus sums up ex 20 with just the two love commandments.to show clearly that GOD never changes.this is the whole law.and you are correct god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill. that would make him a liar ,and who wants to hang out with a liar anyways,you know he would have to cast himself into the lake of fire, what a joke truly sad how long the whole world has been decieved,this liar /murderer.is not my god , my god is the light,life, love ,truth,way,everything good,yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire, may the TRUTH lead you into all TRUTH.
michaelsYou are talking in circles.
First you say…
Quote
god cannot break his own law.he could not say dont kill ,than say go kill.Then you say…
Quote
yet there is a judgement we either need to choose the light, or go on in the darkness into the fire,I assume that the God that said dont kill is the one who will judge those who do not accept the light by casting them in fire.
Is that right?
does fire kill or just pureify and clean ? are you saying its wrong for god to make his children pure ? is not the spirit eternal? can you truly say this punishment is not out of love ,for our own good that we may dwell in his presence forever.who is the judge that will send the spirts where he may,is it not jesus,or is it the most high, (love)?
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