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Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,17:06) Quote (942767 @ July 08 2009,09:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,17:00) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,13:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,10:41) Hi BD,
Similarity to the words of scripture in another book give no validity to that book do they?
Hi Nick:Obviously, somebody read the bible, and took of theirs and put them together to form a new revelation.
Love in Christ,
Mart
Bibles were not printed at large at that time and literacy was not wide spread especially literacy in diverse languages. Also what would make it so hard for God to send Gabriel down with the Quran for the people at that time?Chritianity was steeped in the trinity doctrine and killing anyone who protested it. Jesus was a prophet and God made sure that there was no way to be confused about that.
Jesus said no one knows the time of his return not even him but only The Father. However Jesus was convinced it would be in his generation:
Matthew 16:27-28 (King James Version)
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The fact is everyone of that day is dead and he did not return if you say he is God you would have to say that God was wrong or God lied. If he was simply a man and a prophet then what he said was true “he didn't know”
Hi BD:Could you be that you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant by saying that “some would not taste death till they saw him coming in his kingdom.
He was raised from the dead, and when he was to ascend to his position at the right hand of God our Father, he said, “all power over heaven and earth has been given unto me…”. It sounds to me that he was at that time in his kingdom.
Also from the book of Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I wouldn't mind being wrong but the fact is that verse 27 says clearly:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
That of course has not happened, but that does not mean that Jesus was lying because he already said he did not know, however it would certainly exclude him from being God.
WJ and thinker will not be able to handle this truth so they most likely will attack me, but I would love to hear the response to this fact. Jesus said in verse 28 regarding verse 27:
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Hi BD:There is another option as to what Jesus meant by saying that there would be some that “would not taste of death til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”, and that is the second death spoken of here:
Quote Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Quote Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 09 2009,16:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,17:06) Quote (942767 @ July 08 2009,09:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,17:00) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,13:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,10:41) Hi BD,
Similarity to the words of scripture in another book give no validity to that book do they?
Hi Nick:Obviously, somebody read the bible, and took of theirs and put them together to form a new revelation.
Love in Christ,
Mart
Bibles were not printed at large at that time and literacy was not wide spread especially literacy in diverse languages. Also what would make it so hard for God to send Gabriel down with the Quran for the people at that time?Chritianity was steeped in the trinity doctrine and killing anyone who protested it. Jesus was a prophet and God made sure that there was no way to be confused about that.
Jesus said no one knows the time of his return not even him but only The Father. However Jesus was convinced it would be in his generation:
Matthew 16:27-28 (King James Version)
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The fact is everyone of that day is dead and he did not return if you say he is God you would have to say that God was wrong or God lied. If he was simply a man and a prophet then what he said was true “he didn't know”
Hi BD:Could you be that you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant by saying that “some would not taste death till they saw him coming in his kingdom.
He was raised from the dead, and when he was to ascend to his position at the right hand of God our Father, he said, “all power over heaven and earth has been given unto me…”. It sounds to me that he was at that time in his kingdom.
Also from the book of Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I wouldn't mind being wrong but the fact is that verse 27 says clearly:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
That of course has not happened, but that does not mean that Jesus was lying because he already said he did not know, however it would certainly exclude him from being God.
WJ and thinker will not be able to handle this truth so they most likely will attack me, but I would love to hear the response to this fact. Jesus said in verse 28 regarding verse 27:
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Hi BD:There is another option as to what Jesus meant by saying that there would be some that “would not taste of death til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”, and that is the second death spoken of here:
Quote Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Quote Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Love in Christ,
Marty
There was a combination of scriptures that prove that the prediction was simply presumptuous and the fact is Jesus said that he did not know when the hour would be. This simply shows that Jesus was not God because God saying anything would come to pass.1. some standing here will not taste death…..
2. This generation will not pass till all these things be fulfilled….Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,16:32) Hi BD,
No generation will pass till the fires of Judgment day.
Nick,you are starting to behave like those who run from truth instead of run to truth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,16:46) Hi BD,
Grasp the wisdom of God in our scriptures.
Yours will pall.
You have never read the Quran so you can not know the tremendous blessing of doing so.Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:28) Hi TCD,
Some say three parts.
But why not just believe Jesus and believe in his God?
Jn14.
Jn20Trinity is a nonbiblical speculative teaching.
We are to pull down speculations
Nick,EXACTLY!
John chapter 20 tells us in verse 28 that Jesus is God.Quote 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” An yes, in this passage Jesus does call the Father his God. However, you forget that at the time when he was man, he was subjected to the Father because in his flesh and blood he was lesser. BUT HE WAS LATER EXALTED. The verses you give are valid only for a certain time. There is a chronology here that you keep forgetting. It is a story. You cannot just pick verses out and pull them out of context.
TC27
Yes Jesus was exalted, as a MAN with incorruptible flesh.Jesus was the man born of a woman who died for our sins. He was the man whom was promised to come of the seed of David that would not see corruption. Jesus the human being was raised from the dead as a human being. So that the offspring of David would be the king of kings and the lord of lords.
The Son of man is returning, not a God Son is returning. The Son of man is returning to establish his Father's kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
IMO your the one picking verses and putting them out of context.
You really need to rethink your position. Search your heart and look at the whole of what scripture tells us. The bible does not say that Jesus pre-existed as God, left that position and then went back to being God.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Scripture speaks of God's accomplishment in one man that would bring all men into the forgiveness of sins. Scripture speaks of a MAN being worthy of being an eternal king on earth. We see in the OT examples of God giving kings power, glory and wisdom, these kings time and time again, not only considered themselves to be equal to God but they exalted themselves above God in their hearts and even asked men to worship them, making false images of themselves. With everyone of those Kings God destroyed them. Jesus was given ALL power, authority and wisdom of God, and he did not find himself equal to God, instead of growing vein, he humbled himself and served God's will in perfection. This was a MAN born of the seed of David, whom God knew from the beginning of time would come and fulfill God's plan of eternal salvation. This is the man that God did not allow see corruption, and this is the man that is our brother, leader and King of God's eternal kingdom.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
IMO you TC27, are doing just that, DENYING the TRUE Jesus. Can you not see? Jesus was the resurrected MAN! Remember, says the scripture, and don't you forget TC27, that Jesus is of the seed of David. When you turn him into a God he denies you brother. Please listen to what the scriptures say. May God open your eyes to the glory God accomplished in man and bring to you understanding.
Re 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
Re 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The person who sits at God's right hand is not his partner God, but it is a man. What happened to the 1/3 of God when it went to become a human? How did the 2/3 of God get along without the 1/3 that was missing, did they just improvise? That 1/3 must not be very significant or really even needed for that matter, if the 2/3 can get along just fine without him for 30 some years, aye?
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen
asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Are you following and believing these words?
The above chapter is clear that Jesus is a MAN, always has been and always will be. When he has destroyed the last enemy, God will come down from earth and dwell with us, and every man including Jesus will be subject to God.
1Cor. 8:5-7 even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
Please think on the scriptures,
Peace to you, Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 09 2009,17:05) …..and every man including Jesus will be subject to God.
Amen, sister!Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,19:14) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42) This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out. James said…
”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish.
Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God.
Paul says…
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3
Then Paul says…
Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights.
Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die.
All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is.
Blessings WJ
WJ,I love you so I must be blunt to really assist you with understanding all this.
You stated “death is simply the absense of the spirit from the body which takes place when the body gives out.” Now that we have “Your” definition lets see if it works, okay?
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
now 27 says:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?
as I said before
You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?
Does the scripture you quote say “everyone who would have been standing there”? Why do you misquote the scripture?Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.
Where have I attacked you? Is disagreeing with you an attack?I showed you what scriptures say death is…
”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
Do you believe every one that ever lived on this planet experienced a natural death?
If you do then what about Enoch and Elijah?
WJ
I didn't say you did attack me, what I said was the only options you have are agreeing that I have provided correct information or attacking me.Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree?
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
would it be safe to say that everyone from that generation has tasted death?
Matthew 24:33-35 (King James Version)
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Would it be fair to say that, that generation has passed? and all those things have not been fulfilled have they?
Matthew 24 (King James Version)
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
has that happened? That generation has long passed many generations ago.
Ecclesiastes 1:3-5 (King James Version)
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Is this correct information?
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,13:17)
I didn't say you did attack me, what I said was the only options you have are agreeing that I have provided correct information or attacking me.Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree?
No, I do not agree!
Why, because the scriptures clearly say….
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3
Then Paul says…
Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY W
E ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6So while they are not here in the flesh they are still alive and present with the Lord…
When he opened the fifth seal, “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained“. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?“ Rev 6:9, 10
Again Jesus said…
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:26
Those who live and believe in Jesus shall never die, because they have eternal life! Their Spirits that are born of him, if the Lord tarries, leaves their Bodies and go to be with Jesus.
Again, I reiterate I believe that when Jesus said… “some standing here would not taste of death”, probably didn’t taste of death because Jesus took them just as in like manner YHWH took Enoch and Elijah. So your implication that Jesus didn’t know, IMO is false, for as I previously showed you that he had been given all things!
WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,17:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,16:46) Hi BD,
Grasp the wisdom of God in our scriptures.
Yours will pall.
You have never read the Quran so you can not know the tremendous blessing of doing so.
Hi BD,
You have bored us with the dry words.
All men love the sense of control harsh regulations provide.
But God requires that you come to His Son to find His forgivenessQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2009,17:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,19:14) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42) This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out. James said…
”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish.
Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God.
Paul says…
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3
Then Paul says…
Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights.
Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die.
All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is.
Blessings WJ
WJ,I love you so I must be blunt to really assist you with understanding all this.
You stated “death is simply the absense of the spirit from the body which takes place when the body gives out.” Now that we have “Your” definition lets see if it works, okay?
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
now 27 says:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?
as I said before
You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?
Does the scripture you quote say “everyone who would have been standing there”? Why do you misquote the scripture?Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.
Where have I attacked you? Is disagreeing with you an attack?I showed you what scriptures say death is…
”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
Do you believe every one that ever lived on this planet experienced a natural death?
If you do then what about Enoch and Elijah?
WJ
I didn't say you did attack me, what I said was the only options you have are agreeing that I have provided correct information or attacking me.Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree?
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
would it be safe to say that everyone from that generation has tasted death?
Matthew 24:33-35 (King James Version)
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Would it be fair to say that, that generation has passed? and all those things have not been fulfilled have they?
Matthew 24 (King James Version)
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
has that happened? That generation has long passed many generations ago.
Ecclesiastes 1:3-5 (King James Version)
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Is this correct information?
Hi BDQuote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,13:17)
I didn't say you did attack me, what I said was the only options you have are agreeing that I have provided correct information or attacking me.Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree?
No, I do not agree!
Why, because the scriptures clearly say….
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly
dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3Then Paul says…
Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6So while they are not here in the flesh they are still alive and present with the Lord…
When he opened the fifth seal, “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained“. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?“ Rev 6:9, 10
Again Jesus said…
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:26
Those who live and believe in Jesus shall never die, because they have eternal life! Their Spirits that are born of him, if the Lord tarries, leaves their Bodies and go to be with Jesus.
Again, I reiterate I believe that when Jesus said… “some standing here would not taste of death”, probably didn’t taste of death because Jesus took them just as in like manner YHWH took Enoch and Elijah. So your implication that Jesus didn’t know, IMO is false, for as I previously showed you that he had been given all things!
WJ
WJ,You can't be serious.
There was a combination of scriptures that prove that the prediction was simply presumptuous and the fact is Jesus said that he did not know when the hour would be. This simply shows that Jesus was not God because God saying anything would come to pass.
1. some standing here will not taste death…..
2. This generation will not pass till all these things be fulfilled….This combination of scriptures is so clear that bearing false witness is not even good enough. Just deal with the actual scriptural proof and then you will understand. Don't simply conjure up things like Simon Magus.
God did not tell you to lie in order to be godly. The fact is the events did not occur and no amount of mystical Cris angel/ David blaine mind tricks can dismiss this point that you are trying so hard to avoid.
I don't blame you though even Nick is trying to conjure up an excuse. BELIEVE the scriptures.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,22:04) Hi BD,
You wrestle with spiritual blindness that make your arguments shallow.
Nick you accuse me of spiritual blindness and accuse others of not going by the scriptures and yet when I give you the scriptures you start conjuring up excuses for what they sayWhen Jesus cursed the fig tree it says that:
Mark 11
12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
These verses are clear Jesus was hungry and thought he would find some figs on a tree and when he didn't he cursed the tree but there was nothing wrong with the tree it simply wasn't in season. In other words he didn't know, he presumed. This simply means he was human. Would you like to change the clear meaning of these verses too?
So it stands that
1. some standing here will not taste death…..
2. This generation will not pass till all these things be fulfilled….is proof that he thought the prophesy would happen in his lifetime and what's more:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (King James Version)
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Now this shows that he was not God although he is Christ.
Matthew 10:27-29 (King James Version)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,21:05) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:28) Hi TCD,
Some say three parts.
But why not just believe Jesus and believe in his God?
Jn14.
Jn20Trinity is a nonbiblical speculative teaching.
We are to pull down speculations
Nick,EXACTLY!
John chapter 20 tells us in verse 28 that Jesus is God.Quote 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” An yes, in this passage Jesus does call the Father his God. However, you forget that at the time when he was man, he was subjected to the Father because in his flesh and blood he was lesser. BUT HE WAS LATER EXALTED. The verses you give are valid only for a certain time. There is a chronology here that you keep forgetting. It is a story. You cannot just pick verses out and pull them out of context.
TC27
Yes Jesus was exalted, as a MAN with incorruptible flesh.Jesus was the man born of a woman who died for our sins. He was the man whom was promised to come of the seed of David that would not see corruption. Jesus the human being was raised from the dead as a human being. So that the offspring of David would be the king of kings and the lord of lords.
The Son of man is returning, not a God Son is returning. The Son of man is returning to establish his Father's kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
IMO your the one picking verses and putting them out of context.
You really need to rethink your position. Search your heart and look at the whole of what scripture tells us. The bible does not say that Jesus pre-existed as God, left that position and then went back to being God.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Scripture speaks of God's accomplishment in one man that would bring all men into the forgiveness of sins. Scripture speaks of a MAN being worthy of being an eternal king on earth. We see in the OT examples of God giving kings power, glory and wisdom, these kings time and time again, not only considered themselves to be equal to God but they exalted themselves above God in their hearts and even asked men to worship them, making false images of themselves. With everyone of those Kings God destroyed them. Jesus was given ALL power, authority and wisdom of God, and he did not find himself equal to God, instead of growing vein, he humbled himself and served God's will in perfection. This was a MAN born of the seed of David, whom God knew from the beginning of time would come and fulfill God's plan of eternal salvation. This is the man that God did not allow see corruption, and this is the man that is our brother, leader and King of God's eternal kingdom.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
IMO you TC27, are doing just that, DENYING the TRUE Jesus. Can you not see? Jesus was the resurrected MAN! Remember, says the scripture, and don't you forget TC27, that Jesus is of the seed of David. When you turn him into a God he denies you brother. Please listen to what the scriptures say. May God open your eyes to the glory God accomplished in man and bring to you understanding.
Re 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
Re 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The person who sits at God's right hand is not his partner God, but it is a man. What happened to the 1/3 of God when it went to become a human? How did the 2/3 of God get along without the 1/3 that was missing, did they just improvise? That 1/3 must not be very significant or really even needed for that matter, if the 2/3 can get along just fine without him for 30 some years, aye?
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fal
len asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Are you following and believing these words?
The above chapter is clear that Jesus is a MAN, always has been and always will be. When he has destroyed the last enemy, God will come down from earth and dwell with us, and every man including Jesus will be subject to God.
1Cor. 8:5-7 even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
Please think on the scriptures,
Peace to you, Jodi
Jodi,First of all, you forget that I do not deny Jesus as a man. Second of all, you forget that Jesus was born to a VIRGIN! Do you know how important this is? The fact that he was born to a human flesh and blood woman proves that he is man. However, the fact that he was born of a virgin means that GOD planted the other seed. He is not JUST a man even though he is man. He is FULLY both God and Man.
As it says in Isaiah 9:6 about Jesus:
Quote 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Also, you cannot judge me saying that I will be told Jesus does not know me. Anyone who accepts Jesus and Lord and Savior is saved. You cannot know me. Leave that work to God.
By the way, I am not brother. I am a female.
TC27
TC27 said to Jodi:
Quote Also, you cannot judge me saying that I will be told Jesus does not know me. Anyone who accepts Jesus and Lord and Savior is saved. You cannot know me. Leave that work to God. What Christians on both sides of the trinitarian debate forget is that Jesus told us not to judge one another. His warnings were directed toward OUR OWN self examination. Jesus wants YOU to heed his warnings for YOURSELF. And He wants me to examine MYSELF.
thinker
HI TC27,
I am a Universal Salvationist. So don't be too offended from my saying that according to 2 Timothy 2 you appear to deny Jesus.
Either your a human being or your not. You need BOTH EGG and SPERM to be a man. Jesus was born a HUMAN infant, not part God.
Just what made the baby, God?
The fact that he needed EVERYTHING from the Father?
The fact that he grew in wisdom?
The fact that he needed the Holy Spirit?
How about the fact that he died?Man needs God's Spirit working in him in order to be righteous, for Jesus being half God, wouldn't that have been enough? Why would he then need the Father and His Spirit?
Wouldn't being part God give Jesus an advantage?
So it was because he was just part God, that is what made him need to be subject to the Father and follow God's will and not his own? It was because he was half man, he needed to be subject to the Father? Where is such a scripture to prove your understanding?
As I said, the 2/3 part of the godhead seemed to get along just fine for many years without it's 1/3 member, what does that tell us beyond the fact that God can significantly change?
To come IN the flesh, does that mean NOTHING to you? You DO NOT come in the flesh when your part God. That is absurd.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
According to you he was NOT born according to the flesh. You add with NO scriptural authority and say he was born being both flesh and both God. To say Jesus was anything more then flesh is to DENY Jesus.
Can you show me a scripture that says God was FULLY God and fully man? Seriously how is a man fully a man and fully God?
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
TC27 why don't you think for a minute about why the above scripture would even need to be said.1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Did Jesus look like a human being? Were people astonished by his appearance? Why would people you think even consider that Jesus was not flesh? Could it have been because he performed great miracles and wonders people thought he was God? I would say that is more then likely, so that would be why it was necessary to state that Jesus came in the flesh.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Why would God need to learn obedience to God through suffering?
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Jesus did not go back to being God, he was never God. Jesus was a human being and he was resurrected a human being. When he was on earth with a corruptible body he denied his flesh, even though every second of his life it asked him to serve it, he put God first in all things and followed not the will of his flesh but he followed the will of God. Death has dominion over us all because we must serve our flesh in order to live. Jesus now has eternal life so his flesh no longer needs to serve itself it has been FREED from death and the fear of it. The body of sin has been done away with in Christ, for in him is the resurrection of the dead and the gift of eternal life, where we too will have a body that won't need to serve itself.
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Jesus was a man NO different from Adam. God's plan of which He had in the beginning was to save the world through a MAN, not through a part God/Man.
Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Joh 7:16Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
If Jesus was part God while on earth then WHY wouldn't the work that he did being God be his work also? Why is it just the Fathers?
You had said TC27, I believe to Nick, that it was just while Jesus was a man on earth he was made subject to the Father. However we see Jesus after the resurrection STILL being subject to the Father.
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
According to you TC27, wouldn't Jesus being God, had to have sent himself along with the Father?
Can't you see how the trinity doctrine makes the word of God foolish?
Who did God send, himself?
Joh 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
No scripture tells us that God sent part of itself to earth, or that God sent a spirit Son. What scripture shows is that God had a promise given to David that he would raise up an eternal king of his blood. When Jesus came into the world that PROMISE was sent and came into the world.
Revelation 1:3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.Even in the final book of the bible we see Jesus needing the Father, and that the Father is the God of Jesus.
Jesus even after his resurrection has a God to serve.
Re 22:1 And he showed me a pure* river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Once again,
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' “
Ro 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you see the distinction? Jesus is not the ONE True God.
Ro 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus is our master, he is our brother and our future king on earth. He is NOT the ONE true God, that is the Father YHWH.
2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
How many times TC27 do you need to see it to believe it?
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Ga 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ga 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Could it be anymore clear?
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 6:23 Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus Christ is our master TO THE GLORY of God the Father!
Php 4:20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
1Th 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
1Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.b
2Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2Pe 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
2Jo 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
Re 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Please think on the sciptures,
Peace to you, Jodi
Quote (thethinker @ July 10 2009,02:57) TC27 said to Jodi: Quote Also, you cannot judge me saying that I will be told Jesus does not know me. Anyone who accepts Jesus and Lord and Savior is saved. You cannot know me. Leave that work to God. What Christians on both sides of the trinitarian debate forget is that Jesus told us not to judge one another. His warnings were directed toward OUR OWN self examination. Jesus wants YOU to heed his warnings for YOURSELF. And He wants me to examine MYSELF.
thinker
2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Those who say Jesus is God, and also that he is fully man, IMO deceive themselves and teach falsehood.
According to my understanding of scripture when you say Jesus came fully as God you are denying the simple fact of what scripture says, your adding to it, it says solely that Jesus came in the flesh.
Once again, why would the above scripture even need to be stated unless some people were trying to say he was the One True God? Think about it, and get back to me, if you would please.
One day, if not today or tomorrow =), God will lead you to the truth, for it is the will of God that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, and what God wills, shall be done!!
I do not judge anyone on their salvation, why would I when I know that God is the savior of ALL men, and especially those who believe? (1 Timothy 4:10)
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 09 2009,08:57) HI TC27, I am a Universal Salvationist. So don't be too offended from my saying that according to 2 Timothy 2 you appear to deny Jesus.
Either your a human being or your not. You need BOTH EGG and SPERM to be a man. Jesus was born a HUMAN infant, not part God.
Just what made the baby, God?
The fact that he needed EVERYTHING from the Father?
The fact that he grew in wisdom?
The fact that he needed the Holy Spirit?
How about the fact that he died?Man needs God's Spirit working in him in order to be righteous, for Jesus being half God, wouldn't that have been enough? Why would he then need the Father and His Spirit?
Wouldn't being part God give Jesus an advantage?
So it was because he was just part God, that is what made him need to be subject to the Father and follow God's will and not his own? It was because he was half man, he needed to be subject to the Father? Where is such a scripture to prove your understanding?
As I said, the 2/3 part of the godhead seemed to get along just fine for many years without it's 1/3 member, what does that tell us beyond the fact that God can significantly change?
To come IN the flesh, does that mean NOTHING to you? You DO NOT come in the flesh when your part God. That is absurd.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
According to you he was NOT born according to the flesh. You add with NO scriptural authority and say he was born being both flesh and both God. To say Jesus was anything more then flesh is to DENY Jesus.
Can you show me a scripture that says God was FULLY God and fully man? Seriously how is a man fully a man and fully God?
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
TC27 why don't you think for a minute about why the above scripture would even need to be said.1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Did Jesus look like a human being? Were people astonished by his appearance? Why would people you think even consider that Jesus was not flesh? Could it have been because he performed great miracles and wonders people thought he was God? I would say that is more then likely, so that would be why it was necessary to state that Jesus came in the flesh.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Why would God need to learn obedience to God through suffering?
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Jesus did not go back to being God, he was never God. Jesus was a human being and he was resurrected a human being. When he was on earth with a corruptible body he denied his flesh, even though every second of his life it asked him to serve it, he put God first in all things and followed not the will of his flesh but he followed the will of God. Death has dominion over us all because we must serve our flesh in order to live. Jesus now has eternal life so his flesh no longer needs to serve itself it has been FREED from death and the fear of it. The body of sin has been done away with in Christ, for in him is the resurrection of the dead and the gift of eternal life, where we too will have a body that won't need to serve itself.
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Jesus was a man NO different from Adam. God's plan of which He had in the beginning was to save the world through a MAN, not through a part God/Man.
Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Joh 7:16Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
If Jesus was part God while on earth then WHY wouldn't the work that he did being God be his work also? Why is it just the Fathers?
You had said TC27, I believe to Nick, that it was just while Jesus was a man on earth he was made subject to the Father. However we see Jesus after the resurrection STILL being subject to the Father.
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
According to you TC27, wouldn't Jesus being God, had to have sent himself along with the Father?
Can't you see how the trinity doctrine makes the word of God foolish?
Who did God send, himself?
Joh 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
No scripture tells us that God sent part of itself to earth, or that God sent a spirit Son. What scripture shows is that God had a promise given
to David that he would raise up an eternal king of his blood. When Jesus came into the world that PROMISE was sent and came into the world.Revelation 1:3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.Even in the final book of the bible we see Jesus needing the Father, and that the Father is the God of Jesus.
Jesus even after his resurrection has a God to serve.
Re 22:1 And he showed me a pure* river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Once again,
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' “
Ro 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you see the distinction? Jesus is not the ONE True God.
Ro 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus is our master, he is our brother and our future king on earth. He is NOT the ONE true God, that is the Father YHWH.
2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
How many times TC27 do you need to see it to believe it?
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Ga 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ga 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Could it be anymore clear?
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 6:23 Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus Christ is our master TO THE GLORY of God the Father!
Php 4:20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
1Th 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
1Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.b
2Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2Pe 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
2Jo 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
Re 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, t
o Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.Please think on the sciptures,
Peace to you, Jodi
Jodi,You severely misrepresent my words. I said that Jesus was man and God, I did not say he was half God. He was FULLY 100% both. The verses you gave prove nothing seeing as trinitarians do believe in the separate persons of the Father and the Son. Paul was making a distinction that the persons were separate by saying “our Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” in the verses that you gave. This in no way disproves that they are ONE together. God is one entity that exists in three persons. The idea may seem absurd, but if you stop for a second and think about it, you use that ideology all the time. You say the word class. Class is a singular word, but it implies plurality. One class consists of many students. Now here are verses that prove the sovereignty of Our God Jesus.
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.Genesis 3:22
Quote 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Genesis 11:7
Quote 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” Isaiah 6:8
Quote 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”Isaiah 7:14
Quote 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. Immanuel means: “God with us”
Isaiah 9:6
Quote 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.1 Timothy 3:14-16
Quote 14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.The “he” in this passage is God. Paul says that God appeared in the body.
John 1:1
Quote 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. John 1:14
Quote 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Colossians 2:8-9
Quote 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Colossians 1:15-20
Quote 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Titus 2:13
Quote 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Philippians 2:5-11
Quote 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.The fact that he made himself nothing shows that he had the choice whic
h implies sovereignty. Also he was exalted to the highest place which means equality with the Father.John 10:30
Quote 30I and the Father are one.” John 20:28
Quote 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” These verses are so few in comparison with all of the verses that exist to support the deity of Christ. I will post more of them later. Wrestle with these. They are irrefutable.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,01:55) The fact that he was born to a human flesh and blood woman proves that he is man. However, the fact that he was born of a virgin means that GOD planted the other seed. He is not JUST a man even though he is man. He is FULLY both God and Man.
If that is true then Adam and Eve were fully God as well as fully human.
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