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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:05) Hi WJ,
So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God.We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems.
I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas.
Why does “Son of God” seem to you like an inferior title? Since God never procreated with any human, we must come to the conclusion that the Father's Son is related to Him in a spiritual sense. The Son in infinite, just as the Father is, and since the Trinity is made up of three persons, it's perfectly natural for Jesus to specify which person he is, and say “Son” specifically as opposed to just “God.”Quote (Country boy @ July 05 2009,01:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:05) Hi WJ,
So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God.We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems.
I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas.
Why does “Son of God” seem to you like an inferior title? Since God never procreated with any human, we must come to the conclusion that the Father's Son is related to Him in a spiritual sense. The Son in infinite, just as the Father is, and since the Trinity is made up of three persons, it's perfectly natural for Jesus to specify which person he is, and say “Son” specifically as opposed to just “God.”
CB,
You are absolutely correct. Isaac was Abraham's “only begotten Son” by office only. It meant that he was the head of the family in place of his father Abraham. So Christ is God's “only begotten” in the sense that He is the head of the covenantal family of God. The expression “Son” in reference to Christ is a title which indicates His supremacy.thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,02:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,18:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,01:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,17:25) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,00:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB,
You wish to know of their unity?Try Jn 17.21-22
Father and I is two.
I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness.If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?:
HI CB,
Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God.
That is the unity God plans. [Jn17]
God will be in all.[1Cor15]The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so.
They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God.
Would you agree with them?
Would you stone him too?
First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God.Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy.
Hi CBYou speak the truth. They sought to kill Jesus because he clearly was claiming to be equal to God.
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “and I, too, am working“. John 5:16, 17
Here we see Jesus had broken the sabbath by claiming to work on the Sabbath.
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was “even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18
Here we see John’s narrative claiming not only did Jesus break the Sabbath but he called God his Father making himself equal with God.
To the Hebrew the concept of God as Father was only known for the entire nation of Israel. For someone to claim God as his Father was seen by them as blasphemy for they were making themselves equal to God. Therefore the title Son of God was considered by the Jew as a “Divine title” and also meant equality with God.
The NET has this to say about these verses…
My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. Source
There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. But like many of his statements they were hard to be understood.
To him who has an ear to hear, let him hear!
Blessings WJ
WJ,Jesus did not break the Sabbath at all he taught them that they were not keeping the Sabbath the way it was intended to be kept remember he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it if Jesus truly had broke the Sabbath according to God's own law he should have been killed, but the fact is Jesus did not break the sabbath he proved that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
The funny thing I keep seeing here is that you keep agreeing what is being claimed according to the very people Jesus called wicked and evil.
You keep saying that they said he was making himself God and they said he was breaking the Sabbath well they also said he has a demon in him,
do you believe that too?I hope this opens your eyes to this nasty habit of some here.
Hi BDRead John's own words with an open mind. It is John that is making the claim in his narrative and the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming!
Remmember Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” and could not break it no more than the Father could!
WJ
So you admit that Jesus did not break the Sabbath?Jesus showed them that they were not applying the law correctly and taught them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Jesus told tham that the Sabbath was made for man therefore Man is lord of the Sabbath in fact if you but only knew and understood from the beginning God said let man be lord of the earth but some wanting to rule over others became evil and followed Satan.
God gave all authority to man, am I right?
Hi BDNo, by Gods law to man, and to the Jews he broke the sabbath.
But since he is Lord and God of the Sabbath he can work on the sabbath!
John is the one that says he broke the sabbath, do you think he was lying?
WJ
Hi BD
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,02:27) God gave all authority to man, am I right?
No, man is not Lord of the Sabbath!Is there a scripture for your statement?
WJ
bodhitharta said:
Quote So you admit that Jesus did not break the Sabbath? Jesus showed them that they were not applying the law correctly and taught them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
bd,
Jesus said that the priests profaned the sabbath but were blameless in doing so.Quote Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless (Matt. 12:5) Though Jesus justified the priests He did not deny that they still profaned the sabbath. Jesus broke the sabbath. The inspired apostle John says He did. So there is no question that He did. The question was whether or not He was justified in breaking it.
If I was sitting at a red light and saw a man abduct a child and speed away in a car and I ran the red light to catch up with him I still broke the law. And if I was caught running the red light and I explained to the officer what had happened he would probably not cite me though he could because technically I had still broken the law. He would get in his car and on his radio and pursue the car I described.
Jesus broke the letter of the law. John said that Jesus broke the sabbath. There is no question about it. The question is whether or not He was justified in breaking the sabbath.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,11:51) bodhitharta said: Quote So you admit that Jesus did not break the Sabbath? Jesus showed them that they were not applying the law correctly and taught them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
bd,
Jesus said that the priests profaned the sabbath but were blameless in doing so.Quote Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless (Matt. 12:5) Though Jesus justified the priests He did not deny that they still profaned the sabbath. Jesus broke the sabbath. The insopired apostle John says he did. So there is no question that he did. The question was whether or not He was justified in breaking it.
If I was sitting at a red light and saw a man abduct a child and speed away in a car and I ran the red light to catch up with him I still broke the law. And if I was caught running the red light and I explained to the officer what had happened he would probably not cite me though he could because technically I had still broken the law. He would get in his car and on his radio and pursue the car I described.
Jesus broke the letter of the law. John said that Jesus broke the sabbath. There is no question about it. The question is whether or not He was justified in breaking the sabbath.
thinker
HI JackGod is above the law that was given man for he is the creator and cannot break his own law for it does not apply to him.
If God takes a mans life then no one can call him a murderer for he gave that life.
WJ
WJ said:
Quote HI Jack God is above the law that was given man for he is the creator and cannot break his own law for it does not apply to him.
If God takes a mans life then no one can call him a murderer for he gave that life.
WJ
Yes but Christ was made under the law,
Quote …God sent His Son, born of a woman, born UNDER the law (Galatians 4:4) thinker
CountryBoy said:
Quote Why does “Son of God” seem to you like an inferior title? Since God never procreated with any human, we must come to the conclusion that the Father's Son is related to Him in a spiritual sense. The Son in infinite, just as the Father is, and since the Trinity is made up of three persons, it's perfectly natural for Jesus to specify which person he is, and say “Son” specifically as opposed to just “God.” CB,
Good point. The fact that God never procreated tells us of the supremacy of Christ. One reason that Jesus is called the “Son of God” is also due to the fact that it draws us a picture of the relationship. In the Old Testament, God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son. It was the hardest thing a father could ever do, it caused Abraham pain, because Isaac wasn't just his son, it was his ONLY son. However, Abraham loved God enough to go through with it. This is the picture of God sending Jesus Christ. It is a representation of his love for us. However, that love is even moreso represented by the fact that Jesus also willingly gave up his life.
TC27
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. Source WJ,
This sourse is absolutely AMAZING!
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,09:03) CountryBoy said: Quote Why does “Son of God” seem to you like an inferior title? Since God never procreated with any human, we must come to the conclusion that the Father's Son is related to Him in a spiritual sense. The Son in infinite, just as the Father is, and since the Trinity is made up of three persons, it's perfectly natural for Jesus to specify which person he is, and say “Son” specifically as opposed to just “God.” CB,
Good point. The fact that God never procreated tells us of the supremacy of Christ. One reason that Jesus is called the “Son of God” is also due to the fact that it draws us a picture of the relationship. In the Old Testament, God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son. It was the hardest thing a father could ever do, it caused Abraham pain, because Isaac wasn't just his son, it was his ONLY son. However, Abraham loved God enough to go through with it. This is the picture of God sending Jesus Christ. It is a representation of his love for us. However, that love is even moreso represented by the fact that Jesus also willingly gave up his life.
TC27
Hi TC,
I agree.
God sent His Son.
He anointed His son with His Holy spirit and power.God visited His people in the vessel of His son.
Hi WJ,
You quote
My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. Source”So God and Jesus were working.
Sounds like two were working.If you make Jesus equal to God well of course he is not that God to which he is equal.
Nick,
Then we agree on something, except that God was ONLY in Jesus. I believe God was in Jesus AND that Jesus was God at the same time. You do not see this as possible because a man cannot do this. You forget this is GOD we are talking about.
TC27
Hi TC,
Good stuff.
So God was in Christ Jesus.Now is the God who was in Jesus the trinity god you have espoused?
Does that not make four?Hi TC,
God can also be in us[Phil2, Eph3]
That does not make us God does it?Deciding that because Jesus is your god that he can do anything you can imagine is an odd idea.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2009,02:34) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,02:27) God gave all authority to man, am I right?
No, man is not Lord of the Sabbath!Is there a scripture for your statement?
WJ
The son of Man is man.Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,09:21) Nick, Then we agree on something, except that God was ONLY in Jesus. I believe God was in Jesus AND that Jesus was God at the same time. You do not see this as possible because a man cannot do this. You forget this is GOD we are talking about.
TC27
According to you rbelief “God” could not be in Jesus as you believe that Jesus is God. You also must admit you believe that Jesus flooded the earth and ordered the destruction of sodom and Ghomorah all the laws that you say don't apply to you, if you believe that Jesus is God then he was the one that actually made these laws.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2009,09:20) Hi WJ,
You quote
My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. Source”So God and Jesus were working.
Sounds like two were working.If you make Jesus equal to God well of course he is not that God to which he is equal.
The fact is it was always lawful to do good on the sabbath, Jesus explained that if they had an ox that fell in a ditch that they would pull it out which is good but work nonetheless.I keep the sabbath myself but by the way Jesus taught me to, If I am at home resting or reading or enjoying the company of my wife and a friend is stranded on the road with a car problem I get up and do what is good, because God demands Mercy not Sacrifice
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2009,11:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2009,02:34) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,02:27) God gave all authority to man, am I right?
No, man is not Lord of the Sabbath!Is there a scripture for your statement?
WJ
The son of Man is man.
Hi BD,
Exactly.
But God spoke and told us he was His son.
That son is shown in Ps 2 and Prov30, the appointed messiah and Lord of all.Quote (thethinker @ July 05 2009,03:51) bodhitharta said: Quote So you admit that Jesus did not break the Sabbath? Jesus showed them that they were not applying the law correctly and taught them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
bd,
Jesus said that the priests profaned the sabbath but were blameless in doing so.Quote Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless (Matt. 12:5) Though Jesus justified the priests He did not deny that they still profaned the sabbath. Jesus broke the sabbath. The inspired apostle John says He did. So there is no question that He did. The question was whether or not He was justified in breaking it.
If I was sitting at a red light and saw a man abduct a child and speed away in a car and I ran the red light to catch up with him I still broke the law. And if I was caught running the red light and I explained to the officer what had happened he would probably not cite me though he could because technically I had still broken the law. He would get in his car and on his radio and pursue the car I described.
Jesus broke the letter of the law. John said that Jesus broke the sabbath. There is no question about it. The question is whether or not He was justified in breaking the sabbath.
thinker
Mark 34 And he saith to them, `Is it lawful on the sabbaths to do good, or to do evil? life to save, or to kill?' but they were silent.
Matthew 12:11-13 (Young's Literal Translation)
11And he said to them, `What man shall be of you, who shall have one sheep, and if this may fall on the sabbaths into a ditch, will not lay hold on it and raise [it]?
12How much better, therefore, is a man than a sheep? — so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.'
Jesus never did a bad thing so if he explains to them IT IS LAWFUL to do a good thing on the Sabbath then he could not have broken the sabbath.
the Narrative is not stating a fact that Jesus broke the sabbath it is stating the point of view of his accusers, whom we know were making false charges against him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2009,11:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2009,11:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2009,02:34) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,02:27) God gave all authority to man, am I right?
No, man is not Lord of the Sabbath!Is there a scripture for your statement?
WJ
The son of Man is man.
Hi BD,
Exactly.
But God spoke and told us he was His son.
That son is shown in Ps 2 and Prov30, the appointed messiah and Lord of all.
He called solomon his Son as well.1 Chronicles 17:12-14 (King James Version)
1 2He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
1 Chronicles 22:9-11 (King James Version)
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
Luke 10 (King James Version)
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Why do you think Jesus said this verse 22 if he is the only Son?
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