Newbie has a question about trinitarianism

[NickHassan]

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?:

HI CB,
Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God.
That is the unity God plans. [Jn17]
God will be in all.[1Cor15]

The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so.

They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God.

Would you agree with them?

Would you stone him too?

[Country boy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17)

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too?

First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God.

Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,16:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy.

You just said that just because God is in us does not make us God but then you say that Jesus is God because God was in Him, is that what you are saying?

Didn't I already tell you that he explained to them in the scriptures his position on the claim to calling himself the son of God? Did you not read it how he said that he said “I am the Son of God” He explained to them that to whom the word of God is given they were called “gods” Moses was even called God by God so is Moses part of your “God” family?

Exodus 7
1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

[Country boy]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,17:03)

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,16:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy. You just said that just because God is in us does not make us God but then you say that Jesus is God because God was in Him, is that what you are saying? Didn't I already tell you that he explained to them in the scriptures his position on the claim to calling himself the son of God? Did you not read it how he said that he said “I am the Son of God” He explained to them that to whom the word of God is given they were called “gods” Moses was even called God by God so is Moses part of your “God” family? Exodus 7 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

I am not saying that the Son being in the Father makes him God. I am saying that the Son BEING the Father makes him God, as clearly seen when Jesus says, “I and the Father are one”

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
So you really do think Jesus is his own Father?
He told us in Jn 20 he was going back to his God and His father.

What could this mean?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,00:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy.

Hi CB

You speak the truth. They sought to kill Jesus because he clearly was claiming to be equal to God.

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “and I, too, am working“. John 5:16, 17

Here we see Jesus had broken the sabbath by claiming to work on the Sabbath.

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was “even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18

Here we see John’s narrative claiming not only did Jesus break the Sabbath but he called God his Father making himself equal with God.

To the Hebrew the concept of God as Father was only known for the entire nation of Israel. For someone to claim God as his Father was seen by them as blasphemy for they were making themselves equal to God. Therefore the title Son of God was considered by the Jew as a “Divine title” and also meant equality with God.

The NET has this to say about these verses…

My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection.  Source

There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. But like many of his statements they were hard to be understood.

To him who has an ear to hear, let him hear!

Blessings WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus did not say he was God .
Why would you put words in his mouth?

Is that wisdom?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,17:25)

Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,00:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy. Hi CB You speak the truth. They sought to kill Jesus because he clearly was claiming to be equal to God. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “and I, too, am working“. John 5:16, 17 Here we see Jesus had broken the sabbath by claiming to work on the Sabbath. For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was “even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18 Here we see John’s narrative claiming not only did Jesus break the Sabbath but he called God his Father making himself equal with God. To the Hebrew the concept of God as Father was only known for the entire nation of Israel. For someone to claim God as his Father was seen by them as blasphemy for they were making themselves equal to God. Therefore the title Son of God was considered by the Jew as a “Divine title” and also meant equality with God. The NET has this to say about these verses… My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection.  Source There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. But like many of his statements they were hard to be understood. To him who has an ear to hear, let him hear! Blessings WJ

WJ,

Jesus did not break the Sabbath at all he taught them that they were not keeping the Sabbath the way it was intended to be kept remember he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it if Jesus truly had broke the Sabbath according to God's own law he should have been killed, but the fact is Jesus did not break the sabbath he proved that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

The funny thing I keep seeing here is that you keep agreeing what is being claimed according to the very people Jesus called wicked and evil.

You keep saying that they said he was making himself God and they said he was breaking the Sabbath well they also said he has a demon in him, do you believe that too?

I hope this opens your eyes to this nasty habit of some here.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,01:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,17:25) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,00:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy. Hi CB You speak the truth. They sought to kill Jesus because he clearly was claiming to be equal to God. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “and I, too, am working“. John 5:16, 17 Here we see Jesus had broken the sabbath by claiming to work on the Sabbath. For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was “even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18 Here we see John’s narrative claiming not only did Jesus break the Sabbath but he called God his Father making himself equal with God. To the Hebrew the concept of God as Father was only known for the entire nation of Israel. For someone to claim God as his Father was seen by them as blasphemy for they were making themselves equal to God. Therefore the title Son of God was considered by the Jew as a “Divine title” and also meant equality with God. The NET has this to say about these verses… My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection.  Source There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. But like many of his statements they were hard to be understood. To him who has an ear to hear, let him hear! Blessings WJ WJ, Jesus did not break the Sabbath at all he taught them that they were not keeping the Sabbath the way it was intended to be kept remember he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it if Jesus truly had broke the Sabbath according to God's own law he should have been killed, but the fact is Jesus did not break the sabbath he proved that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The funny thing I keep seeing here is that you keep agreeing what is being claimed according to the very people Jesus called wicked and evil. You keep saying that they said he was making himself God and they said he was breaking the Sabbath well they also said he has a demon in him, do you believe that too? I hope this opens your eyes to this nasty habit of some here.

Hi BD

Read John's own words with an open mind. It is John that is making the claim in his narrative and the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming!

Remmember Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” and could not break it no more than the Father could!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God.

We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems.

I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,18:01)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,01:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2009,17:25) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,00:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,16:17) Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB, You wish to know of their unity? Try Jn 17.21-22 Father and I is two. I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness. If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?: HI CB, Yes we are to be one with Jesus in the same way as he is one with God. That is the unity God plans. [Jn17] God will be in all.[1Cor15] The Jews decided to stone the Son of God but not because he said he was God as he did not do so. They knew of the Son of God from ps 2 and prov 30 and somehow decided that what he said was close enough to calling yourself God. Would you agree with them? Would you stone him too? First, God will be in all, does not mean that God is all. Just because God is in us does not make us God. Please remember the conversation that followed after the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said “I have shown you many miracles from the Father. For which of these to you stone me?” to which the Jews replied, “We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” The Jews understood that he was claiming to be God, and explicitly said so. If I were to walk into Israel, and say that “I and the Father are one,” they would correctly accuse me of blasphemy. They would understand my statement as claiming to be God. If a mere man makes that statement, it is blasphemy. And the Jews, not recognizing Jesus as more than a man, logically charged him with blasphemy. Hi CB You speak the truth. They sought to kill Jesus because he clearly was claiming to be equal to God. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, “and I, too, am working“. John 5:16, 17 Here we see Jesus had broken the sabbath by claiming to work on the Sabbath. For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was “even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18 Here we see John’s narrative claiming not only did Jesus break the Sabbath but he called God his Father making himself equal with God. To the Hebrew the concept of God as Father was only known for the entire nation of Israel. For someone to claim God as his Father was seen by them as blasphemy for they were making themselves equal to God. Therefore the title Son of God was considered by the Jew as a “Divine title” and also meant equality with God. The NET has this to say about these verses… My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection.  Source There is no doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. But like many of his statements they were hard to be understood. To him who has an ear to hear, let him hear! Blessings WJ WJ, Jesus did not break the Sabbath at all he taught them that they were not keeping the Sabbath the way it was intended to be kept remember he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it if Jesus truly had broke the Sabbath according to God's own law he should have been killed, but the fact is Jesus did not break the sabbath he proved that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The funny thing I keep seeing here is that you keep agreeing what is being claimed according to the very people Jesus called wicked and evil. You keep saying that they said he was making himself God and they said he was breaking the Sabbath well they also said he has a demon in him, do you believe that too? I hope this opens your eyes to this nasty habit of some here. Hi BD Read John's own words with an open mind. It is John that is mak ing the claim in his narrative and the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming! Remmember Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” and could not break it no more than the Father could! WJ

So you admit that Jesus did not break the Sabbath?

Jesus showed them that they were not applying the law correctly and taught them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

Jesus told tham that the Sabbath was made for man therefore Man is lord of the Sabbath in fact if you but only knew and understood from the beginning God said let man be lord of the earth but some wanting to rule over others became evil and followed Satan.

God gave all authority to man, am I right?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Are you able to ADD IN that MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Would you now subvert the OT law that you offer us?

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath and it does not relate to you.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:29)

Hi BD, Are you able to ADD IN that MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH? Would you now subvert the OT law that you offer us? Jesus is Lord of the sabbath and it does not relate to you.

The whole earth was made for Mankind and was told to Dominte and subdue it i.e. lord over it

[NickHassan]

hi BD
So is the sabbath part of the earth now?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:32)

hi BD So is the sabbath part of the earth now?

Is it not?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Read the OT.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:05)

Hi WJ, So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God. We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems. I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas.

Nick,
The word “Son” in reference to Jesus merely denoted His office as the Mediator of the covenant of redemption. It does not mean that He was less than God.

thinker

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:32)

hi BD So is the sabbath part of the earth now?

Nick: John 5:39,… search the scriptures and you think you find eternal life but it is these that testify of Jesus…Jesus is the sabbath. The eternal day of rest. Jesus did the work of God and is at rest. We are to enter into his rest. No works to find or please God. Just believe! This is the day of rest. The sabbath rest of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all scripture. God bless you, TK

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,20:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:05) Hi WJ, So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God. We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems. I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas. Nick, The word “Son” in reference to Jesus merely denoted His office as the Mediator of the covenant of redemption. It does not mean that He was less than God. thinker

Hi TT,
So when we become sons we too take up the office of mediator?
There are no real sons?

How far will you go in defense of human folly?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,22:39)

Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,20:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,18:05) Hi WJ, So when Jesus says he is the Son of God he REALLY means he is God. We will need your help then in understanding everything he said it seems. I thought he was the truth and spoke the truth but you seem to have other ideas. Nick, The word “Son” in reference to Jesus merely denoted His office as the Mediator of the covenant of redemption. It does not mean that He was less than God. thinker Hi TT, So when we become sons we too take up the office of mediator? There are no real sons? How far will you go in defense of human folly?

Nick,
How far will you go with your folly? We are adopted. Jesus was begotten. It's apples and oranges.

thinker

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