Nephilim

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,01:37)

Hi Kenrch, Any attempt to question your own found insights seems to set off another round of angry abuse. The spirits shown in 1Peter surely are human, and from the time of Noah. God seems determined to give them another chance.

Nick what anger are you talking about? I'm just pointing out some things. Pray about Nick don't just dismiss it.

[david]

GENESIS 6:4
“The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.”

Does not this say that the Nephilim where the mighty ones who were of old, the MEN of fame?

Why do we keep thinking that the Nephilim were angels? The Bible says they were “men.”
I believe they were the offspring of the angels and women. The Bible says they were men, doesn't it?

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ June 29 2006,07:19)

GENESIS 6:4 “The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” Does not this say that the Nephilim where the mighty ones who were of old, the MEN of fame? Why do we keep thinking that the Nephilim were angels?  The Bible says they were “men.”   I believe they were the offspring of the angels and women.  The Bible says they were men, doesn't it?

Hi David:

Yes, that's how I'm reading it: that the offspring of the angels were Nephilim, mighty and renown. Not that the Nephilim are angels.

Jefe used the word hybrid, which I thought appropriate to mean Nephilim — a crossbreed between angels and women.

Most likely they must be called men because they are male and have resemblance to hu-men?

[Cubes]

Hi Ken and Nick,

Some few examples in which spirit(s) is mentioned.

Speaking of Character/heart:

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ June 29 2006,04:24)

Fallen angels of Noah's time. (the Nephilim) 1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison.   Just as Satan will be in the abyss for 1000 years. WHICH sometime were disobedient, when once God was longsuffering of God WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was being prepared. What other spirits were there?  According to the WORD of God, these spirits were in the time of Noah. WHILE THE ARK was being made.  What other spirits could they be but the fallen angels. If they were any other angels they would have been good angels. Why would good angles be in prison?   The word says it that these angles in prison were the angels While the ark was being built.  The only way for these scriptures to “NOT” be clear would be to “ADD” to them and cause confusion!  This is what the Word says!  This is what I believe. Second fall of angels? If more angels came into the daughters of men AFTER the flood, then there would have been another flood. God is no respecter of persons  The second batch would have been destroyed just as the first OR you find yourself going against scripture AGAIN! Col 3:25  For he that doeth wrong shall”RECEIVE AGAIN” for the wrong that he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. (also: Rom.2:11; Acts 10:34; Eph 6:9; James 2:9) Other Books: The book of Enoch is just an insterting book. If The Father wanted the book of Enoch in His Letter to His children it would be there. The book of Enoch is speculation COMPARED to the WORD of GOD.  Yes Enock is mentioned in Jude 14.  But there are other books mentioned in the bible as well: – Book of the Covenant: (Exodus 24:7) – Book of the Wars of the Lord: (Numbers 21:14) – Book of Jasher: (Joshua 10:13) – Book of the Acts of Solomon: (1st Kings 11:41) – Book of Nathan, AND Book of Gad: (1st Chronicles 29:29) – Prophecy of Ahijah AND Visions of Iddo: (2nd Chronicles 9:29) – Book of Shemaiah: (2nd Chronicles 12:15) – Book of Jehu: (2nd Chronicles 20:34) – Acts of Uzziah, (Written by Isaiah): (2nd Chronicles 26:22) – Sayings of the Seers: (2nd Chronicles 33:19) – An Earlier Epistle of Paul, To The Corinthians: (1st Corinthians 5:9) – An Earlier Epistle of Paul, To The Ephesians: (Ephesians 3:3-5) – The Epistle of Paul, From Laodicea, To The Colossians: (Colossians 4:16) – A Former Epistle of Jude: (Jude 3) -** Enoch's Ancient Prophecies of the Coming of Christ: (Jude 14) For me their is no other book but the WORD. There is no other truth but the Word.  If one wishes to add a book then one should be a Morman.

Hi Ken:

Thanks for the compilation of other books mentioned in the bible.  I haven't seen such books but if there were proven to exist, I should consider them as scripture as well.  It would be another case if they were not mentioned.  Of course their existence from antiquity would have to be substantiated and established in the same way the current cannon is.

I am grateful we have what we have now though and believe it sufficient to lead us into the knowledge of God and salvation in his son.

I have to agree with Nick that the spirits must be referring to men.  Not angels.  There is no other scripture to substantiate that fallen angels would be redeemed, is there?  

Even for humans it says that if having been saved, we fall away again etc, it's as if we crucify the Lord Jesus anew/again.  So how do you improve on an angel who has been to heaven and beheld the glory of God falling away?  What other sacrifice is there or atonement?  

Besides, men did not corrupt angelic beings.  If anything, it is the other way around.  The first Adam was human and led humans into death following Satan's influence.  The Second Adam came in his stead to fix what went wrong so I don't think it involves angels and their possible redemption.  Genesis 1 to 3 does not apply to fallen angels, except that in the final analysis Jesus shall crush the head of Satan.

Jesus died for mankind whom he became like, not for the angels whom he became a little lower than.  Certainly not for satan or demons and devils. So all these various and sundry check marks point to a strong evidence that the spirits of 1 Peter 3:19 must be that of humans and not of angels.  But I welcome scriptures to the contrary to better appreciate and understand your view point.

John 3:16 is for people.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
God is amazingly tolerant. He allows Satan to return to the family conference in Job 1-2 and greets the accuser of the brethren[see Zech 3], asking what he has been up to and listens to his claims.

Then He keeps 1\3 of His angels in heavenly realms even though they are later shown to be rebels and cast out after losing in a close struggle in Rev 12.

The Nephilim corrupted the ways of men and what the angels taught men as shown in Enoch, is still evident in fashion and mining and witchcraft etc.

Man has been well tested and found wanting by Satan and his evil hordes and God clearly wants a clean slate with all evil removed from heaven and earth.

[kenrch]

Cubes,

I have to agree with Nick that the spirits must be referring to men. Not angels. There is no other scripture to substantiate that fallen angels would be redeemed, is there?

My question is what human spirits would that be?

Gen 6:7 And the LORD3068 said,559 I will “destroy4229” (853) man120 whom834 I have created1254 from4480, 5921 the face6440 of the earth;127 both man,4480, 120 and5704 beast,929 and5704 the creeping thing,7431 and5704 the fowls5775 of the air;8064 for3588 it repenteth5162 me that3588 I have made6213 them.

Destroy:

H4229
מחה
mâchâh
maw-khaw'
A primitive root; properly to stroke or rub; by implication “to erase”; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: – “Abolish, Blow Out, Destroy, Full of Marrow, Put Out, Reach Unto, X Utterly, Wipe (away,Out)”.

*Noah and his family were the only pure humans left on earth.
So everyone except Noah were “DESTROYED”, God destroyed everything flesh, spirit and soul of man.
The only other beings that survived the flood would be the fallen angels.
The “TIME FRAME” is the days of Noah. All other beings were destroyed. Who are these spirits “while the ark was being made”? They are the fallen Angels or Noah and family. They were simply no one else there. Again ALL OTHERS during Noah's time were Destroyed by God.
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
These spirits were in the days of Noah. No other “being” survived the flood.

[Cubes]

Hi Ken:

Thanks for your post.  May be there's something I am overlooking, but perhaps you can help.  Why would Jesus preach to angels?  You've got to provide at least one supporting scripture by which we may arrive at that conclusion or understand this new thing you say about preaching to angels.

I admit that I haven't given much thought to Nephilims or imprisoned spirits being preached to until recently.  And I don't know if I am understanding that scripture properly yet as I would also like to have more scriptures that attest that imprisoned (dead human) spirits are preached to.  I have been more concerned with the living captives that Jesus came to set free (Luke 4:18f), like myself.   Could this be what Peter refers to?  I don't yet know and have not yet studied this in depth.  Of course there is the parable about Lazarus and the Rich man and that whole thing about Abraham's bosom to consider.

You've done a good job in showing that God destroyed everything except for the Noahs (I guess we could call them that), and the fallen angels.  

My position is based on the fact that various scriptures indicate that 1)  God's gospel must be preached to humans, not to angels [though admittedly, to living humans BEFORE they die]  2) humans are capable of repentence [no such examples shown of angels]  3)  Repentent humans who turn to the Lord would be saved [no such requirements of angels have been made known to us].  With some degree of assurance based on all that, I judge that those spirits must be LIKELY human as opposed to fallen angels.  

Now, you may still be right, but we can't just bypass the above observations and arrive at such conclusions without some other defining or supportive scriptures to that end, is all that I am saying.
 
I can't help coming back to look at the Nephilim again.  We agree that they did not tread water or hide on board the ark.  One thing is for sure:  they were hybrid and did possess abilities that regular humans did not.  Nothing was said of the nature of their mortality.  Regular humans and animals are called flesh and die in one way, but who knows how an angel dies…, if an angel dies… particularly in the same way?  I speculate that the nature of their mortality could be somewhat different from ours.  I don't know.  So now they've got these hybrids running around.  It is reasonable, barring any scriptures to the contrary, to suppose that hybrids were imprisoned.  The reason this could be is that:  1) They are at least mixed with half human and so have half a chance to repentence and salvation.  2)  They have the angel/spirit component to their make up and so had half a chance of surviving the flood unlike pure flesh, 3) but are not the actual angels that rebelled so MAY have found grace where the actual rebels do not?  3)  Jesus says that in the resurrection the redeemed would be as angels who do not marry and so if humans could be of an (though I believe our glory may well exceed that of angels being the body of Christ and his bride and sitting on thrones next to Jesus and in some cases sitting on his own throne with him for good measure) angelic nature in some regards, then repentent hybrids could be too?  4)  this would ring true of the Ezekiel scripture that says that a child would not be condemned for a parent's sin or vice versa, particularly if the one is innocent.  I really don't know so this is speculation, but it makes more sense to me that those spirits should be I) human or II) Nephilim than that they should be fallen angels.  Above are my reasons why and I want to hear yours.

If hybrids were conclusively considered flesh, then they had to be destroyed.  Perhaps the scriptures also say so directly as to whether they are flesh or were destroyed or both.  In that case, end of that speculation.  If not, then the possibility exists that they could be the spirits, I think.

[kenrch]

My reason is simple taken the scriptures that are on this subject to me doesn't say anything about human spirits.
I would like someone to please straighten me out. That's why I have it posted in HELP!

I'm tired of the whole thing but for some reason I can't forget it.
The Holy Spirit showed me that the Giants were carried over through Noah. That would be the only way the giants could have survived the flood.
No one will ever prove that wrong. I don't know if you or anyone has experienced the Holy Spirit but when the Holy Spirit guides or teaches you, you don't forget it. And you know that you know as your spirit bears witness that the Spirit od God has paid you a visit.

[Cubes]

Hi Ken:

When you say that they were carried over by Noah, what do you mean? through his genes or aboard his ark?

[kenrch]

Quote (Cubes @ July 06 2006,16:17)

Hi Ken: When you say that they were carried over by Noah, what do you mean?  through his genes or aboard his ark?

Cubes through his genes. The giants were on earth “Before” the sons of God mated with women. This is the only possible way that the giants survived the flood. Obviously they did survive the flood. Goliath and their are giants today maybe not 50ft like in a SiFi movie. But 7'4'' is big even compared to a person 6ft or so.

[seminarian]

Good point Kenrch,

I was not aware that Goliath was actually descended from the Nephillum who as rotten as they were, did not have angels as their forefathers.  In fact as you posted, wasn't the main purpose of the flood in Noah's time to erase the Nephillum from the earth?  Now that's an awful lot of water to waste if the job didn't get done.  Kenrch as you noted, Scripture teaches only eight souls survived and none of THEM had Nephillum ancestory (look at Noah's genelogy in Genesis).

No, we need to define what group of people Goliath came from.  One clue is Og, the King of Bashan.
Another were the giants who inhabited Cannan when Joshua and Caleb sought to take possession of it under Moses.

One last clue I can readily think of is that Goliath and his relatives had one peculiar genetic trait.  They had SIX fingers on each hand and SIX toes on each foot.  Obviously his group was a genetic mutation and NOT something that could be handed down by Nephillum as they are niether men nor angels but a grotesque hybrid.  Also there is no record of Nephillum having extra fingers of toes anyway.  Something like that is sort of hard to miss wouldn't you think? Even so I believe I read that David eventually overtook and eradicated all of them during his kingship.

Just my 2 cents.  Oh well, back to the books.  

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I may be coming from left field but what does”the face of the earth ” mean?
We know in common parlance it means the whole surFACE of the earth but what does it mean scripturally?
If it does mean that why does “the face of the WHOLE earth” appear three times in Genesis 11?

Is there a difference?

Could the “face of the earth” refer to a locality just as a face only takes up a proportion of a head?

Also does not Ps 104 defining the limits of the waters mean the flood was only local as some have suggested?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
God wanted to destroy man. Are Nephilim men?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,20:23)

Hi, God wanted to destroy man. Are Nephilim men?

Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

No because this scripture says “all Flesh”. If no one knows then no one knows and I'll just put it on the back burner. I hope it stays on the back burner

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2006,22:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,20:23) Hi, God wanted to destroy man. Are Nephilim men? Gen 6:12  And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. No because this scripture says “all Flesh”.  If no one knows then no one knows and I'll just put it on the back burner.  I hope it stays on the back burner

You know what Nick may be that's the answer the Nephilim were men and not half spirit beings as David says.
Whatya think?

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
They were flesh.
They may have been men in God's sight .
Who knows?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,22:56)

Hi kenrch, They were flesh. They may have been men in God's sight . Who knows?

Then the sons of men were just humans? This is another complete direction.
There ia another theory out there. That the sons of God were the decendents of Seth who started calling on the Name of Jehovah.

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh. Then began men to call upon the name of Jehovah.

And that the Daughters of men were decendents of Cain.

Whatya think?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
There is no suggestion in that verse that Seth began the calling of the name of the Lord as Adam was still alive and he had other sons and daughters.
Cain was sent away so it is more likely that they intermarried among the relations who were with them. This was not evil in God's sight, after all Adam had relations with his own rib.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,23:35)

Hi, There is no suggestion in that verse that Seth began the calling of the name of the Lord as Adam was still alive and he had other sons and daughters. Cain was sent away so it is more likely that they intermarried among the relations who were with them. This was not evil in God's sight, after all Adam had relations with his own rib.

I'm glad it wasn't my idea

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