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Quote (kenrch @ June 27 2006,20:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2006,20:09) Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 27 2006,17:20) Num 13:33 And there we saw the GIANTS, the sons of Anak, [which come] of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. This verse makes it sound like giants really meant GIANTS – not just tall people.
I may be the only one but I think I'm reading Genesis 6:4 a little differently. To me it says there where giants/Nephilim in those days when/after/because the Sons of God came down……The following sentence could be an example. Job was a wealthy man in those days when the Lord blessed him with great riches for his righteousness. Now we can add the phrase “and after that”. If we rearrange the sentence to say – When the Nephilim were on the earth, the Sons of God came down…. that makes sense. When the Nephilim were on the earth, and after that, the Sons of God came down…. doesn't sound right.
To me it says. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (pre-flood), and after that (post-flood), (at the point) when the Sons of God came down….
Let me know if I'm crazy
and just not seeing this verse right. Thanks for hearing me out.God Bless
Hi J and cubes,
I agree.
What happened after the flood?
Were the wicked angels put into chains in Tartaroo immediately then?
If so then they could not continue to produce offspring with women.
If not they could then they might continue and produce other races of giants.
Hey all that is fine. And I can certainly see how everyone would read the scripture to say That those who were on the earth;in those days.(skip and also after that) when the sons of God came into the daughters of men and …..The children of the fallen angels were on earth: and also after that? When the sons of God came into the daughters of men.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
There were giants in the earth in those days; And also after that, After the giants were on the earth, the sons of God came into the daughters of God and made Giants also but these giants were the hybirds. Half angel and half men.
The first “Natural” Giants were all human. And Noah must of had a gene to pass it along on the ark. Because no hybirds survivedte flood. If a hybird survived then God failed to accomplish His goal of destroying and rid the earth of those beast.
Of course this is why Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was TOTALLY human.Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Those fallen angels are in prison:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, “wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water”.None of the fallen angels off spring survived.
Hi Kenrc,
The prison spoken of in 1Peter cannot be Tartaroo wherein are angels.That place does not seem to have an earthly location but is in the heavenlies surely?Those waiting in prison had the gospel preached to them, they still had hope of salvation in Jesus.
Angels do not have such hope, their condemnation is eternal. Only men have mercy and forgiveness granted from God because we are of dust.
I believe the giants are from the angelic connections only and not two breeds of giants with only Noah with pure genes. I believe the “after that” refers to the persistence of these giants after the flood, but I may be wrong.
Kenrch,
I agree with you that there is no way a genetic remnant could have gone onto the ark – even through Noah's wife. I think the scripture points to the purity and righteousness of Noah's generations which would include those before AND after him.I also agree that those angels are in prison as the verses from 1 Peter indicate. Nice searching by the way
I still think that the “when the Sons of God…” part is giving the cause or reason for Giants being “in the earth in those days” but I do like the points you have made. I think the giants could have repopulated the earth after the flood because other angels came down as those before.
However, if you are right there would be giants already on earth. Or at least large people. I have heard theories on how the water above the firmament spoken of in Genesis could have altered the living conditions on earth to the extent that not only could people live to 800+ years old but that they could grow to 10 feet or more. Skeptics wonder how Noah and his couple of family members could have built a huge ark. Well, maybe they were gigantic. I guess this stuff is better suited for a different thread somewhere. Maybe one already exists – I haven't been on this forum for long. Very interesting stuff. Much more involved and solid theory than what I've laid out here.
God Bless
Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 27 2006,21:46) Kenrch,
I agree with you that there is no way a genetic remnant could have gone onto the ark – even through Noah's wife. I think the scripture points to the purity and righteousness of Noah's generations which would include those before AND after him.I also agree that those angels are in prison as the verses from 1 Peter indicate. Nice searching by the way
I still think that the “when the Sons of God…” part is giving the cause or reason for Giants being “in the earth in those days” but I do like the points you have made. I think the giants could have repopulated the earth after the flood because other angels came down as those before.
However, if you are right there would be giants already on earth. Or at least large people. I have heard theories on how the water above the firmament spoken of in Genesis could have altered the living conditions on earth to the extent that not only could people live to 800+ years old but that they could grow to 10 feet or more. Skeptics wonder how Noah and his couple of family members could have built a huge ark. Well, maybe they were gigantic. I guess this stuff is better suited for a different thread somewhere. Maybe one already exists – I haven't been on this forum for long. Very interesting stuff. Much more involved and solid theory than what I've laid out here.
God Bless
Thanks for responding Jefe,How tall was a man before he could be known as a giant in the days of Noah. What was the avg. height of a man.
Although it is hard to believe especialy since we all still have influnces of our religious background. I believe it is right and there would be of course for me to believe otherwise one would have to definitly prove with scripture that it is wrong.
As I said I believe that is the only way their were giants after the flood. To believe otherwise IS saying that God did not complete His goal. Which would make God inferior to what HE IS all Mighty God.
Scripture often conflicts with scripture. When there is no obivious scriptual answer I always leave it in God's hands. It is after all His Spirit that wrote the scriptures. I believe God has shown me why the confusion. Just as Luke 23:43 just a move of a comma and the scripture makes sense to me. And again those words “and also after that, when” became 3D and flashing on the screen with the witness of the Holy Spirit.
So there is my testimony that I believe it is true. The burden is on anyone to with scripture prove it wrong. I don't believe there is scripture that says the Nephilims crossed over by use of the Ark. That in itself Is against Scripture.
I offer the only scriptual answer you will find using only the true Word of God.
Whenever a situation like this arises I put it on the back burner on low awaiting an answer but also forgetting it for the moment.
I always know My Father will let me have the answer when He is ready and not I. It may not be until God is all in all! It's whatever purpose of the Father. There IS A REASON WHY and all the research and study of words is not going to change the Father's mind. I believe He has answered, to straighten out the confusion.
Just as nothing will change the Father's mind so goes His children. They should only believe The Father through the Holy Spirit. Amen!
I remembered in bed while in My prayer closet. The Lord showed me this but as a young babe in Christ I believed the Sunday teacher and the traditional belief instead. After all I was just a babe they said.
We serve an awsome God! He planted that seed when I was young. He knew what the religious would be and He knew I would be on this forum. JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE!
Keep your humble spirit,
Kenrch
Kenrch,
Quote How tall was a man before he could be known as a giant in the days of Noah. What was the avg. height of a man. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if the average man was much larger than modern man. “Science” tells us to think man from long ago was primitive. I doubt it. If men were given physical blessings to live 800+ years then it may follow that they could have other physical gifts (great size & strength) not to mention the intelligence of all those years accumulating knowledge. Still, I don't know how to explain how some could be “giants” and others not during this time frame.
Nick made a good point in an earlier post about – why would a woman need to cover her head if the threat of an angel coming down was not an ongoing threat? That said – do you think it is possible that angels could have come down after the flood and created the likes of Goliath or do you think Goliath was just an exceptionally large man?
Lots of questions. You are definitely right in saying the best course of action is to seek the Lord's truth but ultimately let Him reveal the answers to you. We humans can be quite impatient. I know I am
Quote I remembered in bed while in My prayer closet. The Lord showed me this but as a young babe in Christ I believed the Sunday teacher and the traditional belief instead. After all I was just a babe they said.
I can definitely relate. There is a different dynamic for people who never experienced a “defining moment” to their belief. I cannot remember when I became “born again”. It feels like I always have been and it took a long time for me to break free of the linear thought process that often follows one who has grown up that way. It is a wonderful feeling when you sense God's spirit working inside you. Even when He is shifting the foundations of your faith which is never comfortable, it is reassuring to know He is there and shifting that foundation from sand to the rock of Christ.God Bless
Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 28 2006,01:47) Cubes,
Yeah, I agree that the giants/Nephilim are the hybrids themselves
Do you think they could be the source of mythological creatures like titans and cyclops?God Bless
Hi Jefe:To tell you the truth, I have not given much thought to mythology … I guess I chucked them into the “false” bin and was satisfied with it. Now I'll pay more attention when reading scripture.
One thing I know, God is able to create the Living Creatures having what, four faces and six wings and whatnots, so he can create fearsome creatures that do not have to be related to the rebellious ones.
Blessings.
I missed a lot.
Quote Ok Nick tell me how did the Nephilim survive? Somehow they (Nephilims) must have snuck aboard the ark and for forty days Noah “AND GOD” didn't realize they were in the ark. When the ark landed they snuck off then repopulated the earth with their off spring. That's how Goliath got to be a philistine.
Either that or they tread water for forty days and nights.This is an excellent strong point. The world grew violent, and in large part that was because the angels that sinned and forsook their proper dwelling place went to the earth, materialized human bodies and had sex with women creating a very large hybrid offspring who were violent bullies.
Now, God purposed to put that world to an end, sparing the lives of 8 souls, those whom God chose.
I assure you that none of the Nephilim of those days survived. Yes, when the spies where sent out to jericho, they came back and gave the report that the men there were Nephilim. Of course, this only meant they were very large. These were the scared spies who didn't want to go, we remember.
And 1 Chron 20:6 speaks of Goliath, born to the Rephaim or giants (Lit., “to the Rapha.” Heb., leha·Ra·pha´´. The father’s name here is taken to stand for the entire race of giants.)Goliath certainly was large. Today, we see tribes of small people, tribes of larger people. There are oddities. But if God brought an end to that wicked world, then I assure you that the only survivors where those whom he chose. There is no way around God's judgement.
david.
Hi ,
You may be right so since none of us have access to further proof where to from here?
David, have you read enoch?I think we can all agree now that scripture does not allow for the propagation of the Nephilim seed by way of the ark or surviving the flood. It is clear that only the 8 souls, pure in their generations, survived. Though Noah and his kin were thought by God to be the most righteous of people on the earth, they were still sinners, and not long after the flood sin and depravity repopulated the earth. Perhaps, sin and depravity also spawned again in the wills of certain angels who came down and defiled themselves with human women just as those in the pre-flood days. This action would be the “and after that” in Genesis 6:4 and allow for giants such as Goliath.
The Book of Enoch notes that the original Sons of God received such stern punishment that the angels Michael and Raphael trembled at its severity. You would think this would be incentive for no other angels to commit such acts. However, how many in God's creation have hardened their heart despite the powerful signs of righteous anger and wrath.
So, do you all think we have reached some common ground? What do you think of the post-flood possibility of angels coming back down?
God Bless
Nick,
I'm not sure. Enoch gives more extensive coverage on this subject but it depends on if it is to be considered of divine inspiration. Enoch says that the Sons of God who came down pre-flood were responsible for much more than just having sexual relations with women. They gave the secrets of heaven to mankind spreading violence and chaos across the world while giving man knowlege (which he used to sin) that God had not originally intended for him to have. For these things they are punished in the process you mentioned.If other angels were to come down post-flood to have relations with women (producing giants) I would think they would be undoubtedly punished. Or perhaps allowed to join their cohorts in hell to be punished at judgement time. Either way Enoch would suggest that the original pre-flood wicked angels were unique in their sins and the magnitude there of and logic would follow that they would receive a unique punishment.
Just more guesswork on my part
God Bless
Fallen angels of Noah's time. (the Nephilim)
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. Just as Satan will be in the abyss for 1000 years.
WHICH sometime were disobedient, when once God was longsuffering of God WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was being prepared.
What other spirits were there? According to the WORD of God, these spirits were in the time of Noah. WHILE THE ARK was being made. What other spirits could they be but the fallen angels. If they were any other angels they would have been good angels. Why would good angles be in prison? The word says it that these angles in prison were the angels While the ark was being built. The only way for these scriptures to “NOT” be clear would be to “ADD” to them and cause confusion! This is what the Word says! This is what I believe.Second fall of angels?
If more angels came into the daughters of men AFTER the flood, then there would have been another flood. God is no respecter of persons The second batch would have been destroyed just as the first OR you find yourself going against scripture AGAIN!
Col 3:25 For he that doeth wrong shall”RECEIVE AGAIN” for the wrong that he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. (also: Rom.2:11; Acts 10:34; Eph 6:9; James 2:9)
Other Books:
The book of Enoch is just an insterting book. If The Father wanted the book of Enoch in His Letter to His children it would be there. The book of Enoch is speculation COMPARED to the WORD of GOD. Yes Enock is mentioned in Jude 14. But there are other books mentioned in the bible as well:
– Book of the Covenant: (Exodus 24:7)
– Book of the Wars of the Lord: (Numbers 21:14)
– Book of Jasher: (Joshua 10:13)
– Book of the Acts of Solomon: (1st Kings 11:41)
– Book of Nathan, AND Book of Gad:
(1st Chronicles 29:29)
– Prophecy of Ahijah AND Visions of Iddo:
(2nd Chronicles 9:29)
– Book of Shemaiah: (2nd Chronicles 12:15)
– Book of Jehu: (2nd Chronicles 20:34)
– Acts of Uzziah, (Written by Isaiah):
(2nd Chronicles 26:22)
– Sayings of the Seers: (2nd Chronicles 33:19)
– An Earlier Epistle of Paul, To The Corinthians:
(1st Corinthians 5:9)
– An Earlier Epistle of Paul, To The Ephesians:
(Ephesians 3:3-5)
– The Epistle of Paul, From Laodicea, To The
Colossians: (Colossians 4:16)
– A Former Epistle of Jude: (Jude 3)
-** Enoch's Ancient Prophecies of the Coming of
Christ: (Jude 14)
For me their is no other book but the WORD. There is no other truth but the Word. If one wishes to add a book then one should be a Morman.Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 28 2006,22:21) I think we can all agree now that scripture does not allow for the propagation of the Nephilim seed by way of the ark or surviving the flood. It is clear that only the 8 souls, pure in their generations, survived. Though Noah and his kin were thought by God to be the most righteous of people on the earth, they were still sinners, and not long after the flood sin and depravity repopulated the earth. Perhaps, sin and depravity also spawned again in the wills of certain angels who came down and defiled themselves with human women just as those in the pre-flood days. This action would be the “and after that” in Genesis 6:4 and allow for giants such as Goliath. The Book of Enoch notes that the original Sons of God received such stern punishment that the angels Michael and Raphael trembled at its severity. You would think this would be incentive for no other angels to commit such acts. However, how many in God's creation have hardened their heart despite the powerful signs of righteous anger and wrath.
So, do you all think we have reached some common ground? What do you think of the post-flood possibility of angels coming back down?
God Bless
Hi Jefe and allI agree that those on board the Ark had to be human and righteous for our sake in prep for the work of reconciling humanity to God.
It seemed to me that the ark was Eden II, in that only what God wanted was on board, but it didn't have the perfection of Eden. And yet, the serpent was in Eden. He gained access because God did not bar him from entry to begin with. And he didn't say in Genesis 3 that he would bar him from further human contact, did he? And Satan persists and there are still demonic interference with humans, are there not?
I have not yet read Enoch so can't speak from that POV. However, barring scripture to the contrary, I don't believe that angels went on rebelling. I believe the rebels were from the original rebellion and defection when a third of the angels decided to follow Satan.
I doubt they die in the way mortals do so what is to prevent the same rebel-angels from recycling and doing roundtrips to earth? They can't all be locked up because they still are very much at work 'to kill, steal and destroy.' They were thriving in the form of “Legion” when Jesus walked the earth and empowering that poor man with incredible strength so that chains could not hold him.
Another question is, were Nephilim destroyed because they sinned or were they destroyed because they were hybrids?
It is also interesting to note that none of the giants seem associated with righteousness. If they were just good old giants, shouldn't we have a portrait of at least one of them doing something godly and worthy of emulation?
And how come large/big/tall people of today don't have abilities as the Anakims and their cohorts, if the Anakims were just big people?
Quote (kenrch @ June 28 2006,23:24) Fallen angels of Noah's time. (the Nephilim) 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. Just as Satan will be in the abyss for 1000 years.
WHICH sometime were disobedient, when once God was longsuffering of God WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was being prepared.
What other spirits were there? According to the WORD of God, these spirits were in the time of Noah. WHILE THE ARK was being made. What other spirits could they be but the fallen angels. If they were any other angels they would have been good angels. Why would good angles be in prison? The word says it that these angles in prison were the angels While the ark was being built. The only way for these scriptures to “NOT” be clear would be to “ADD” to them and cause confusion! This is what the Word says! This is what I believe.
Hi,
Interesting kenrch.
Do others agree that kenrch is right and these are angels who were preached to in prison?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,04:41) Quote (kenrch @ June 28 2006,23:24) Fallen angels of Noah's time. (the Nephilim) 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. Just as Satan will be in the abyss for 1000 years.
WHICH sometime were disobedient, when once God was longsuffering of God WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was being prepared.
What other spirits were there? According to the WORD of God, these spirits were in the time of Noah. WHILE THE ARK was being made. What other spirits could they be but the fallen angels. If they were any other angels they would have been good angels. Why would good angles be in prison? The word says it that these angles in prison were the angels While the ark was being built. The only way for these scriptures to “NOT” be clear would be to “ADD” to them and cause confusion! This is what the Word says! This is what I believe.
Hi,
Interesting kenrch.
Do others agree that kenrch is right and these are angels who were preached to in prison?
Hi Nick and Ken:I have never considered the scriptures from this pov (point of view) before so it bears considering and testing it. Hope to get back to you on it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2006,23:41) Quote (kenrch @ June 28 2006,23:24) Fallen angels of Noah's time. (the Nephilim) 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. Just as Satan will be in the abyss for 1000 years.
WHICH sometime were disobedient, when once God was longsuffering of God WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was being prepared.
What other spirits were there? According to the WORD of God, these spirits were in the time of Noah. WHILE THE ARK was being made. What other spirits could they be but the fallen angels. If they were any other angels they would have been good angels. Why would good angles be in prison? The word says it that these angles in prison were the angels While the ark was being built. The only way for these scriptures to “NOT” be clear would be to “ADD” to them and cause confusion! This is what the Word says! This is what I believe.
Hi,
Interesting kenrch.
Do others agree that kenrch is right and these are angels who were preached to in prison?
What difference does that make? It makes no difference to me I rather please God than man.Hi kenrch,
Surely you seek confirmation of your spiritual path from those others walking with you whom you respect-which excludes ones you hate like me of course?Hi cubes,
We know Satan has already been judged from the words of Jesus. Scripture does not seem to offer forgiveness to angels but only frail men so what would be the point of Jesus going to preach to condemned angels?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,00:12) Hi kenrch,
Surely you seek confirmation of your spiritual path from those others walking with you whom you respect-which excludes ones you hate like me of course?
Nick I don't hate you! I just can't agree with you. You don't want me to agree with you.Anyway No Nick the prophets didn't care who believed them. They just kept on keeping on. The Apostles didn't change because of men. And I will never choose man over God. I don't seek mans approval. I tell it like it is . I don't even care about your scholars if your scholars don't agree with the word then guess what.
Based on scripture given are not these spirits during the buliding of the ark. Weren't these angles disobedient.
What spirits do you “think” they are?
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