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Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,07:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:36) Kevin,
When I “attack” preexistence or even other topics, it is not the bible I am attacking (if I am attacking at all). It is there idea of what the bible is saying – their personal interpretation. That is a bit different than saying, “The bible is completely wacked.”. See the diffference?
Only slightly. Their beliefs are still their beliefs. Therefore, if you believe the bible is infallible, it is just another belief. Are only some beliefs fair game?
I believe this is called, nit-picking but I could be wrong.Geesh, bro.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:42) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,07:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:36) Kevin,
When I “attack” preexistence or even other topics, it is not the bible I am attacking (if I am attacking at all). It is there idea of what the bible is saying – their personal interpretation. That is a bit different than saying, “The bible is completely wacked.”. See the diffference?
Only slightly. Their beliefs are still their beliefs. Therefore, if you believe the bible is infallible, it is just another belief. Are only some beliefs fair game?
I believe this is called, nit-picking but I could be wrong.Geesh, bro.
No it is not. A belief is a belief, is it not? Believing the bible is infallible is no different than believing God is triune with Jesus as one of the persons. Neither has any proof and is only based on belief.So Many times the word of God becomes the family break down, where the bible failed to teach us to search our own thoughts and way, and be drawn in that likeness, vowing our lives into one trust, even in each other, as oneness of mind is the true uniting factor, that will stand, all else is accomplished by any agreeing couple, children suffer as the divisions appears Latter.
Do not lean on your own understanding?
Lean on your understanding after searching the heart, without our own understanding we shall never move out in faith.
If our understanding is Shifting faith to another’s written understanding, that is leaning on perceptions?
charityHi Not3
Quote Stu – you hope there is a God or you wouldn't be here. You said so yourself in the beginning that you were here to see if anyone had any new argument that could convince you. I suppose that could lead one to believe that you want to be convinced?
I have already come to a conclusion, however it will always be a provisional one liable to change in the light of new evidence, or any evidence. Christians want to tell me how to live my life. They do that based on claims of truth, but those claims have no basis in evidence. They want to run my life based on what appears to me to be their own intuitive prejudices, for which they claim some celestial authority. If the claims are true, then I want to see evidence. It is only fair that I give people the chance to show me their facts. At the same time I don't think people should be allowed to misrepresent science and I hope to combat such lies that are told in its name. As always, we find that objective evidence for christian truth claims (some of the most absurd in all mythology), the kinds of things that anyone could agree with, is entirely missing. Where does that leave the christian's desire to rule over everyone? Their mandate appears to be worse than hot air. And they can stop knocking on my door as well!Stuart
Stu,
Who's trying to “run your life”?
You say, “….in the name of Science…”, this almost sounds religious?
Well man, you have some good points. But it comes down to a choice to have faith or not. No man can make you receive it or believe it. There certainly is no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists OR that the Big Bang theory is 100% correct. Where does that leave us? Some choose faith while other's choose to follow science. Can't we all just get along and quit pointing finger's?
Hi Not3
Quote Who's trying to “run your life”?
Christians want me to pay extra taxes so they can default on theirs (‘charitable status’) in order to have more money to prostyletise (although they claim to be providing social services – just imagine us paying McDonalds to provide a meals on wheels service – would you like fries with that?); they want a blasphemy law in place that limits my freedom of speech yet usually can’t cope when told that by reading from a book that advocates the death of homosexuals and adulterers they are breaking another law; some even want a ‘world government’ based on christian values (theirs, I imagine) and look forward to the destruction of the world that I live in, hastening that with brinkmanship bravado in the Middle East; christians want to persecute my gay friend by passing laws that outlaw his sexuality. Shall I go on? Thank you for asking!Quote You say, “….in the name of Science…”, this almost sounds religious?
It does! That is exactly how the creationist argument is framed. Even when they think they are doing science, it always ends up sounding like religion. They can’t help it, the language exudes from them like bile from a leaky gall bladder!Quote Well man, you have some good points. But it comes down to a choice to have faith or not. No man can make you receive it or believe it.
No man has managed to do that for me. While I do not claim to be superior, I do think that my worldview has far more integrity and robustness than what you can head here.Quote There certainly is no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists OR that the Big Bang theory is 100% correct. Where does that leave us?
That leaves us not knowing for sure. Some suckle up to a dogmatic security blanket that fills in all the details, others accept that there are mysteries, and that mystery does not imply deity.Quote Some choose faith while other's choose to follow science. Can't we all just get along and quit pointing finger's?
I’ll stop pointing my fingers when christians stop making ridiculous demands of everyone without supporting evidence.Dare I ask when under what circumstances fundamentalists here would stop pointing fingers? I think we know that is an unlikely outcome!
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 22 2008,07:14) Stu, Please tell me how you really feel.
Don't hold back this time!
Any chance I get…Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,08:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:42) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 21 2008,07:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:36) Kevin,
When I “attack” preexistence or even other topics, it is not the bible I am attacking (if I am attacking at all). It is there idea of what the bible is saying – their personal interpretation. That is a bit different than saying, “The bible is completely wacked.”. See the diffference?
Only slightly. Their beliefs are still their beliefs. Therefore, if you believe the bible is infallible, it is just another belief. Are only some beliefs fair game?
I believe this is called, nit-picking but I could be wrong.Geesh, bro.
No it is not. A belief is a belief, is it not? Believing the bible is infallible is no different than believing God is triune with Jesus as one of the persons. Neither has any proof and is only based on belief.
To believe that God didn't send prophets and his son to help us who have lost our way is also a belief with no proof. To ignore what God spoke through these people such as to love God with all your heart and love mankind as you love yourself, is to ignore the right thing.In the end we shall see which belief is profitable. We are free to choose and we have already chosen. But there is time to change the road your on. (Not a Led Zep fan BTW). But there will come a time when time will be no more and our lives will be reviewed. For now we have blank canvases to paint on. But not forever and as short as our lives are short.
Quoting t8:
Quote To believe that God didn't send prophets and his son to help us who have lost our way is also a belief with no proof.
You can’t prove a negative. This is logically rubbish.Quote To ignore what God spoke through these people such as to love God with all your heart and love mankind as you love yourself, is to ignore the right thing.
This is your subjective ethics. In my subjective view it is bullying.Quote In the end we shall see which belief is profitable.
If it is medievalist religious faith versus an empirical and rational approach, then I think modern medicine has already shown us the answer to that.Quote We are free to choose and we have already chosen.
You assume we are free to chose. No doubt you have scripture you can quote. Whether it is true is a question that cannot be entrusted to faith. No answer will come that way. Of course many christians would prefer to keep asserting things like free will without pesky people questioning whether it is a faulty premise.Quote But there is time to change the road your on. (Not a Led Zep fan BTW). But there will come a time when time will be no more and our lives will be reviewed. For now we have blank canvases to paint on. But not forever and as short as our lives are short.
If you are truly seeking truth, you would not ‘change your path’ unless there was evidence that showed you it was necessary. Even then you would want there to be good corroboration of facts. Notwithstanding the impossibility of knowing whether there is a god of the kind humans have manufactured, christianity presents no important, solidly verifiable facts on which to base its core tenets of virgin birth and resurrection.I guess if you had to persist with a god delusion, your choice could be between Not3in1’s exploratory model in which the ‘god-given’ conscience and mental faculty is trusted to work out the relevant properties of its creator, and Nick’s ‘better do what I think god wants, or you’re for it’ model.
Stuart
Sorry, that's t8's and Nick's model of the do what i think god wants… Wouldn't want to leave you out there t8!
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 22 2008,06:12) To believe that God didn't send prophets and his son to help us who have lost our way is also a belief with no proof. To ignore what God spoke through these people such as to love God with all your heart and love mankind as you love yourself, is to ignore the right thing. Do you need a book to tell you such things? Are we certain such sayings were not borrowed from an earlier Egyptian (much of the book of Genesis is).
But if you say that it is wrong to “ignore” prophets, you must then go the extra step and listen to what Mohammed had to say. You must also ignore what Bahá'u'lláh had to say as well. Both were said to be prophets. Perhaps you are even ignoring Joseph Smith.
Quote In the end we shall see which belief is profitable. We are free to choose and we have already chosen. But there is time to change the road your on. (Not a Led Zep fan BTW). But there will come a time when time will be no more and our lives will be reviewed. For now we have blank canvases to paint on. But not forever and as short as our lives are short.
In the end, we may just find that no belief was profitable. We aren't assured of an afterlife because no one in thousands of years has ever verified such. It is just a belief and nothing more, and not one that seemed to be shared by the early Israelites.Hey kejonn. You watched that video didn't you? Then you were talked out of your faith. If that is the case, that just shows how shallow your faith was to begin with.
I saw it too. There are quite a lot of errors in it and it also doesn't negate experience with God. But maybe you didn't have a deep relationship? If you did, I am sure you wouldn't be bad mouthing YHWH and his prophets.
These things KJ are designed to shake the tree so that those who base their faith on tradition and not relationship, will fall away. There is much more to come too.
I believe in God and his messiah. It is not so much the bible that is most important because most of what I do in faith starts as a conviction from within and scripture is one way to guide me as far as doctrine goes. but it doesn't guide me day by day.
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