Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2011,20:51)

Adam,

I read Ezekiel 40:48 and Jeremiah 31:31-32 and do not see the Torah mentioned anywhere. What I do believe is that the word of God will be strictly adhered to and that is done by living by the Spirit. It is a Jewish teaching that the command love your neighbor as yourself is the sum of the Law and Jesus and his students also teach that. The Spirit gives a believer the ability to love as God loves.

Ezekiel was a contemporary of Jeremiah and thus prophesized previous to the building of the Second Temple. Why is it taught that Ezekiel speaks of the Third Temple and not the Second Temple?

The Samaritan Jews still sacrifice animals as their beliefs are different that the Pharisees and Sadducees on this matter. All three traditions are heretics. So, what matters what heretics do?

Hi brother Kerwin,
In fact I appreciate the pain you take to explain me about the New covenant especially in the earlier post of yours. But I am not convinced by the logics of writer of Hebrews who used his own words in addition to Jer 31:31,32 in Heb 8 and 7. Sealing of New covenant by the blood of Jesus or the death of Will giver are not supported by Hebrew Bible. God never intended Human blood for sin atonement if so he could have allowed it in Hebrew scriptures. Hebrews' writer also claimed that animal blood could atone sin at all which makes God a liar who ordained it.

If you say Ezekiel's prophecies are for second Temple so are Jeremiah's prophecies. But you are ignoring the context of both prophecies for their fulfillment it is nothing but for Messianic reign in the end days. You also agree with me that Messianic physical kingdom has not yet taken place and all Israel and Judah could not be gathered to Nation of Israel even today forget about the time of Jesus. Instead of establishing kingdom and peace to the world he was taken out of the scene and Jews were sent out of their country which is negative picture for the fulfillment of New covenant and construction of Third Temple.

I can't digest the Pagan ritual of eating flesh and drinking blood of Jesus let even in a figurative sense which is dead against Hebrew scriptures which forbid eating of even animal blood.

You asked about Torah in Jer 31:31 & Ezekiel I think you are ignoring the scriptures which clearly talk about writing of God Law(Torah) on the hearts of people as well as Ezekiel's meticulous sacrifices being resumed as per the Torah of God in the Messianic era. You say God's word in general terms but scriptures talk about Law.

These are some of my confusions in understanding Christian New Covenant.

Thanks and peace ot you
Adam

January 23, 2011 at 5:13 am#236506

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 22 2011,02:29)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2011,21:25)

Hi Adam,

The only part of “The Law” that was done away with was the statutes contained in ordinances,
such as animal sacrifices and the sprinkling of their blood; as Jesus was the final sacrifice!

Were the 10 commandments done away with? Of course NOT! (1John 2:3-4)

Deut.6:1-2 Now these are the “commandments”, the “statutes”, and the “judgments”,
which the LORD(YHVH) your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them
in the land whither ye go to possess it: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God,
to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and
thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

The mount of transfiguration illustrates these three.
Moses: The Commandments; “10” Old & “2” New.
Elijah: The Judgments; rewards & punishments.
Jesus: The Statues; Jesus fulfilled the statues
(contained in ordinances), doing away with.

Eph.2:15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
So we can see there is difference between “The Law” and ordinances!
10↔2 Has a fractal counterpart: 10 Northern tribes and 2 Southern tribes.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

But Hebrew Bible says all the Torah will be observed strictly in the Messianic kingdom as per Ezek 40-48. Even the animal sacrifices including for sin offerings will be resumed in the Messianic era as per Ezek 44:1-14;44:15-3;45:1-8;45:9-25.

It is only the invention of NT writers that Jesus' death some how nullified these animal sacrifices but they ignored prophecies of Hebrew Bible for the third Temple in the Messianic kingdom.

Jesus' death could not even stop animal sacrifices in the second Temple till 70 CE. It shows his death was nothing to do with Jewish Temple. It is purely Christian idea of Vicarious atonement of Original sin and nothing else.

Please see the difference.

Peace to you
Adam

Adam

What you read in Ezekiel is the rebuilding of the temple after the Jews were allowed to return home, after their 70 year captivity.
Does it not talk about the Leviticus priesthood?
Does it not talk about animal sacrifices?

Eze 44:10 ¶ And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

Eze 44:11 “””Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary,””” having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: “””they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice””” for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

Now look at these scriptures.

Hbr 7:12 For the “””priesthood being changed,””” there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hbr 10:9 Then said he (Jesus), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first (covenant), that he may establish the second.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered “””one sacrifice for sins for ever,””” sat down on the right hand of God;

So, you see, there are no more priests to minister, or to do the sacrificing.
Now, concerning the “Temple”.

1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, “””ye are””” God's building (temple).

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, “””which temple ye are”””.

Peter sums it up.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a “””spiritual house”””, an “””holy priesthood”””, to offer up “””spiritual sacrifices”””, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus told the Jews of the destruction of their temple, even of the destruction of their nation (house).

Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 “””Behold, your house (nation) is left unto you desolate.”””

This did happen in AD 70.

NO INVENTIONS, “””FACTS”””, unless of course you reject scripture, in which case you shouldn't even be on this thread.

Georg

January 23, 2011 at 7:16 am#236507

Participant

Hi brother Georg,
The scriptures you quoted above from NT are nothing but Christian interpretation on Jesus' death as atonement for sins which is not supported again by the Hebrew Bible as I quote repeatedly here. Jesus' death could not stop at all any Temple sacrifices and there was no historical evidence since the Temple was only demolished after 40 years after his death and they will be resumed again in the Messianic era as per Ezekiel 40-48 including sin offerings by the reinstated Levitical priesthood. Jews are waiting for the reconstruction of the Third Temple in the near future as a fulfillment of God's prophecies in Ezekiel.

Peace to you
Adam

January 23, 2011 at 9:21 am#236508

Participant

Adam,

You claim that “Sealing of New covenant by the blood of Jesus or the death of Will giver are not supported by Hebrew Bible”. Scripture states:

Psalms 40((NIV)

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened—
burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”

So Jesus’ sacrifice is acceptable to God because it is an act of mercy in that Jesus sacrificed himself for others. The writer of Hebrews speaks of his self sacrifice as follows.

Hebrews 10(NIV)
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

A type from Scripture is the case of Samson who sacrificed himself to defeat the enemies of God. In the case of Samson the enemies of God were flesh and blood but in the case of Jesus they are spiritual even as it is written:

Ephesians 6:12(NIV)

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

And again

1 John 1:9(NIV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

So God does justify the shedding of human blood through self sacrifice to defeat his enemies or he would not have enabled Samson to do just that. So Jesus’ act of mercy accomplished much more than Samson’s act of righteousness.

I am tired and plan to address the rest of your points at a later if God so wills.

January 23, 2011 at 9:41 pm#236509

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2011,17:16)

Hi brother Georg,
The scriptures you quoted above from NT are nothing but Christian interpretation on Jesus' death as atonement for sins which is not supported again by the Hebrew Bible as I quote repeatedly here. Jesus' death could not stop at all any Temple sacrifices there was no historical evidence since the Temple was only demolished after 40 years after his death and they will be resumed again in the Messianic era as per Ezekiel 40-48 including sin offerings by the reinstated Levitical priesthood. Jews are waiting for the reconstruction of the Third Temple in the near future as a fulfillment of God's prophecies in Ezekiel.

Peace to you
Adam

You are not the only one on this forum that rejects scripture, what I wonder about is, why are you here?

Georg

January 24, 2011 at 1:25 am#236510

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2011,19:21)

Adam,

You claim that “Sealing of New covenant by the blood of Jesus or the death of Will giver are not supported by Hebrew Bible”. Scripture states:

Psalms 40((NIV)

So Jesus’ sacrifice is acceptable to God because it is an act of mercy in that Jesus sacrificed himself for others. The writer of Hebrews speaks of his self sacrifice as follows.

Ephesians 6:12(NIV)

And again

1 John 1:9(NIV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

I am tired and plan to address the rest of your points at a later if God so wills.

Hi brother Kerwin,
Psalm 40:6-12 you quoted from NIV is a right translation from MT than LXX. But the writer of Hebrews quotes from LXX in Heb 10:5 for supporting Jesus' incarnation by stating that “a body you have prepared for me” which also often quoted by Trinitarians as well as preexistence-believers here to support their preexistence.

In fact Ps 40 is not a Messianic prophecy but it is of David, a prayer before YHVH but the writer of Hebrews claims for Jesus' incarnation on this earth from his preexistence position.

The irony of the writer is one side he quotes from Ps 40:6 which states 'sacrifices and offerings you doesn't require' but the other side he interprets it for Jesus' vicarious atonement as per Heb 10:13-14. Do you see the difference here? How can you justify Jesus' human sacrifice when God doesn't require even an animal sacrifice?

I have already stated earlier in other thread that I can't agree with your logic of Samson's death as vicarious atonement for sins of people of Israel. So that can not be supported for Jesus' self sacrifice for vicarious atonement for sins of mankind. I don't think any other member in this forum even supports this logic of yours.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 25, 2011 at 11:39 am#236511

Participant

Adam,

You do not seem to understand the Jewish mine set that sees types in scripture and other places. If you did understand it you would not be confused when a Jew applies a type to an event that fits it. In the case of Psalms 40:6-8 the passage is obviously true when applied to Jesus as God does not desire sacrifices but rather desires that each of us love as he loves. It is also true that Jesus offered his body to God for God to live in. It is because of this self sacrifice to God that Jesus chose to die on the cross. This act of self sacrifice even though it involves the sacrifice of a human being is considered righteous by God as because it is an act of mercy. Below is where Rabbi Daniel Z. Feldman speaks of voluntary self sacrifice even as Hebrews 10:12-14 and Matthew 26:42 reveals Jesus’ choice to die for God is.

Voluntary Self-Sacrifice
Author: Rabbi Daniel Z. Feldman
Article Date: Friday June 24, 2005

In commenting on the story of Elisha Ba’al Knafayim, the Ran makes some notable assertions. He states that while the rule of yehareg v’al ya’avor is extended beyond the basic three prohibitions in times of persecution, this is only true of prohibitions; one is not obligated to give up his life in order to fulfill a positive commandment (see also Nimmukei Yosef, Sanhedrin 74a, and Rama, Y.D. 157:1). This is for two reasons: a) one is not required to sacrifice himself in a situation where he would not be actively violating the Torah; and b) the sacrifice will not accomplish anything, as the oppressors could imprison the individual and thus prevent the mitzvah’s performance in any event.

R. Natan Gestetner (Natan Piryo to Hil. Chanukah, p. 86) observes that according to the second reason, it would follow that if it would be possible to observe the relevant mitzvah for any length of time before the oppressors are able to interfere, one would be obligated to do so. He proceeds to explain along these lines the ruling of the Shulchan Arukh (O.C. 671:5) that during times of danger, one suffices with placing Chanukah candles on the [inside] table, rather than simply dismissing the mitzvah altogether.

The Ran continues his comment to assert that even when one is not obligated to sacrifice himself, he is permitted to volunteer to do so. This opinion is shared by Tosafot (Avodah Zarah, 27b, s.v. Yakhol). The Rambam, however, in his Mishneh Torah, (Hilkhot Yesodei HaTorah 5:1) explicitly excludes such an option. The Nimmukei Yosef to Sanhedrin takes a middle position, allowing voluntary martyrdom only for leaders of a generation who feel the circumstances are appropriate. (See Kessef Mishnah, Hilkhot Yesodei HaTorah 5:4. See also R. Yitzchak Ohlboim, Sh’eilat Yitzchak 3:106, and R. Ephraim Oshry, Responsa Mima’amakim 5:14.)

The Ramban, in the Milchamot Hashem to Sanhedrin, rules that it is forbidden for one to be stringent beyond the law in this matter, noting that no one ever suggested that if one takes ill on Shabbat, it is admirable piety not to violate Shabbat to save him. R. Shmuel Rozovsky (Zikhron Shmuel, 65) notes that the focus of the Ramban’s ruling is the obligation of “pikuach nefesh”. It may follow that in a situation in which there is no obligation of pikuach nefesh, but no obligatory martyrdom either, martyrdom may be volunteered. He thus suggests that this may be the position of the Ran in relation to positive commandments: martyrdom is not obligated, because of both of the reasons he lists; but there is no obligation of “pikuach nefesh, and thus one may still choose self-sacrifice.

Here is the source.

Hebrews 10(NIV)

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Matthew 26:42(NIV)

He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

January 25, 2011 at 5:27 pm#236512

Participant

Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks again for your pains to explain to me on Jesus' death as vicarious atonement. But I am sorry that I am not convinced by those strange ideas of those Jews whom you quoted for your support. In fact I may agree that Jesus' death was a martyr death than vicarious atonement as claimed by the writers of Hebrew and Matthew. But I can not agree it as an atonement for sins even if you take the example of Samson which I believe to be another Martyr death for his people than an atonement for their sins.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 26, 2011 at 11:33 am#236513

Participant

Adam,

I was not intentionally explaining Jesus’ death as atonement as though he does pay the wages of our sins and that is why it is foretold that “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities”, Isaiah 53:5. In addition it is self evident that by choosing to suffer death he did close the abyss that separates non believers from God. That is atonement he chose to perform for the people of God as an act of mercy which pleases God; for with that act he is defeating the real enemies of God. Mosses also offered to make atonement for his people even requesting that his name be removed from the book of life that the children of Israel names would remain, Exodus 32:30-34. God refused him but not Jesus who offered a better atonement than did Mosses who was unable to offer the same as he, himself has sinned.

What I was doing is explaining why the accusation of human sacrifice is false. That being that self sacrifice is not considered human sacrifice. I was in addition pointing out that his death accomplished much more than just atoning for the sins of believers for even animals who are sacrificed by others accomplished that much. Jesus sealed the new covenant by his death and thus God came to dwell through Jesus in those that believe as he could no longer do so directly since they had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is through living by the spirit a believer obeys all the commands God makes.

I agree that Samson’s death was not atonement for the sins of his people but it was rather a defeat for the flesh and blood enemies of God. Was merely using as it as a type to explain why Jesus’ act of self sacrifice pleased God. His act of self sacrifice sealed the new covenant and through the new covenant the spiritual enemies of God are currently being defeated.

References:

Quote

Isaiah 53:5(NIV)

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Exodus 32(NV)

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

January 27, 2011 at 4:20 pm#236514

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2011,21:33)

Adam,

References:

Quote

Isaiah 53:5(NIV)

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Exodus 32(NV)

Hi brother Kerwin,
Good arguments but not so convincing on vicarious atonement but I may agree with you on Jesus' death as martyr death similar to that of Samson. Spiritual enemies and war with devils and Satan is still Christian invention IMO. Sealing of New Covenant by the death of Jesus is still a myth which is not supported by Hebrew Bible. Isa 53 is about Nation Israel or God's servant but not Messiah who will be a warrior and ever victorious Jewish King and not a suffering servant as given in Isa 53. Crucified Messiah is a shame to Judaism as quoted by Paul himself in 1 Cori 1:18.

I may believe Jesus as Jewish Messiah when he really accomplishes all Messianic prophecies in future if he is really the one.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 28, 2011 at 10:26 am#236515

Participant

Adam,

I hope that you come to understand that one individual can make atonement for another under the law as it is written that the priest make atonement for the people by burning an offering on the altar, Leviticus 4:31. Now the Messiah is not a priest of the order of the Levites since he is not of that tribe but rather he is a priest of the order of Melchizedek, even as foretold through the prophet David in Psalms 110:4. In fact we are told by God speaking through the same prophet as well as the prophet Hosea that God does not desire sacrifice and offering, Psalm 40:6 and Hosea 6:6 even though those things were commanded under the Law of Mosses but instead he opened the ears and prepared a body for his Messiah, and for that matter any other human being. Now Jesus used the body God gave him to serve God by martyring himself in God’s war against the Yetzer Hara, aka sinful nature, flesh, of each and every human being. Now Jesus was uniquely qualified for performing this act of martyrdom as he lived a life without sinning even though tempted as every other human being is; and so did not earn the wages of death, Proverbs 10:16. for himself and so had his bodily death yet to offer God as atonement. It was his offer that sealed the new covenant as it condemned the world as evil for unjustly putting him to death while the life he lived demonstrated that a human being that through faith lived by the Spirit of God would not sin for the spirit is contrary to the Yetzer Hara. It is through entering and adhering to the new covenant that the Spirit of God is received.

God speaks of his spiritual war against the Yetzer Hara of the people of Israel and Judah through the prophet Hosea with these words:

Hosea 6(NIV)

Quote

4 “What can I do with you, Ephraim?
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.

You say that you will not believe Jesus is the Anointed until he has finished accomplishment all that he strives for and yet scripture states:

Hebrews 11:1(NIV)

Quote

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Have faith for God does as he says.

References:

Quote

Leviticus 4:31(NIV)

They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.

Psalm 110:4(NIV)

The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

Psalm 40:6(NIV)

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Hosea 6(NIV)

1 “Come, let us return to the LORD.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
3 Let us acknowledge the LORD;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 “What can I do with you, Ephraim?
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.[a]
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 10:16(NIV)

The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

January 28, 2011 at 11:09 am#236516

Tim Kraft

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 26 2011,03:27)

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

gollumadui: That is the truth as I see it. Jesus made it clear that his life was his to pick up or lay down, NOBODY TAKES IT AWAY FROM HIM! He laid down his life/martyr for the greater masses of the time to vicariously see him as the final sacrifice and establish the new covenant in blood.

God/Love could not sentence a son to die. Love does not force anything. Love gives of itself. Jesus gave of himself for the betterment of the masses of that time. It was the greatest love that could be given.

Here is a thought that I am following!

Sin never was! It was a choice in the Garden not a sin. Sin was mans created idea that he could do something that would separate him from God. Sin is an error of thinking passed down through generations. Men were even told they were born in Sin and they believed that. Sin is an error of belief. Sin is a lie, a deception, an untruth, not from God or in God. Man told man how to live, but God did not tell man how to live. Not if the revelation of Jesus is true, that God is LOVE!

Could you respond? IMO, TK

January 28, 2011 at 12:29 pm#236517

Participant

Adam! You don't believe that Jesus is the perfect Scarifies for our sins? He is the ransom Scriptires say

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You and I and whosoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life……Without Jesus we would stay dead….

Peace Irene

January 29, 2011 at 2:19 pm#236518

Participant

Hi brother Kerwin, Tim and Georg,
I appreciate your wonderful responses on this thread. In fact as a Christian I can understand all your logics on Vicarious atonement of Jesus. But I am not fully convinced on these arguments with reference to Jewish views on Original sin and Sin atonement. I liked the views of brothers Kerwin and Tim on Jesus' sacrifice resembles that of a martyr. But I still wonder how Jesus can seal the New covenant by his death.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 29, 2011 at 3:01 pm#236519

Ed J

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2011,00:19)

Hi brother Kerwin, Tim and Georg,
I appreciate your wonderful responses on this thread. In fact as a Christian I can understand all your logics on Vicarious atonement of Jesus. But I am not fully convinced on these arguments with reference to Jewish views on Original sin and Sin atonement. I liked the views of brothers Kerwin and Tim on Jesus' sacrifice resembles that of a martyr. But I still wonder how Jesus can seal the New covenant by his death.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam,

Jesus Christ = The Testator

Hebrews 9:16-22 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every
precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and
scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of
the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle,
and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and
without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins). “Jesus Christ”(151) was “The Testator”(151)!

Matt.26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Rom.3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his
righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Heb.10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
PS> See God's Signature… (Click Here)

February 1, 2011 at 12:25 am#236520

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 30 2011,01:01)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2011,00:19)

Hi brother Kerwin, Tim and Georg,
I appreciate your wonderful responses on this thread. In fact as a Christian I can understand all your logics on Vicarious atonement of Jesus. But I am not fully convinced on these arguments with reference to Jewish views on Original sin and Sin atonement. I liked the views of brothers Kerwin and Tim on Jesus' sacrifice resembles that of a martyr. But I still wonder how Jesus can seal the New covenant by his death.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam,

Jesus Christ = The Testator

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
PS> See God's Signature… (Click Here)

Next time you see God, ask for an autograph for me, will you?

Georg

February 6, 2011 at 1:51 am#236521

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 30 2011,01:01)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2011,00:19)

Hi brother Kerwin, Tim and Georg,
I appreciate your wonderful responses on this thread. In fact as a Christian I can understand all your logics on Vicarious atonement of Jesus. But I am not fully convinced on these arguments with reference to Jewish views on Original sin and Sin atonement. I liked the views of brothers Kerwin and Tim on Jesus' sacrifice resembles that of a martyr. But I still wonder how Jesus can seal the New covenant by his death.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam,

Jesus Christ = The Testator

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
PS> See God's Signature… (Click Here)

Hi brother Ed,
The Covenant maker or Testator(what you call) was none but God Himself. As for the interpretation of the writer of Hebrews the Covenant maker that is God Himself has to die to seal the covenant which is impossible since God is immortal. Also Covenant maker's blood is required for sealing the covenant is not supported by the Hebrew Bible. Since God is pure Spirit he doesn't have flesh and blood as we humans have. So this analogy is false.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

February 6, 2011 at 2:01 am#236522

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 28 2011,21:09)

Could you respond? IMO, TK

Hi Tim,

Excellent! That is “The Truth”!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 6, 2011 at 2:30 am#236523

Ed J

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2011,00:19)

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam,

God's Signature
The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)

יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)

Jesus Christ(151) is “The Testator”(151)

Hebrews 9:1618 For where a testament is, there must also
of necessity be the death of the testator. For a (Diatheke=63)
“Testament”=117 is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is
of no strength at all while “The Testator” liveth. (1Timothy 2:4-6)

“HolySpirit”(151) is the “God Spirit”(117)

John 16:7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send
him unto you. John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74)
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much “fruit”(74).

“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)

February 7, 2011 at 5:39 am#236524