Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 15 2011,21:47)

Georg,

I believe that death and aging are at least part of what Romans 8:19-21 is speaking of. You should also consider that the spirit of the Lord can overcome even the effects of that curse if man turns from his wicked ways. It was in these struggles between him and the effects of sin that God grew angry with man and declared their lives would be a hundred and twenty years, Genesis 6:3.

Reference:

Genesis 6:3(NIV) reads:

Quote

Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Georg

January 15, 2011 at 2:37 pm#236426

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 15 2011,17:54)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 15 2011,03:04)

kerwin

My question, I believe, was; “what does it mean, as in Adam all die”?

What it means is, none of us die for our sins now; that does not mean, we don't deserve death.
God cursed all mankind to die for Adams sin, that is why baby's, and little children die, even before they have committed a sin. Would they die for their sins, would they not then be allowed to live until they sin?
But this is how God has worked it out to save all of us with “ONE” sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
By dying for Adam, ransoming him from the grave, meaning, trading places with him; he opened the doors to all of our graves, meaning, we will all be resurrected. That will happen during the millennium.
It is then, that “ALL” will be taught the truth, and nothing but the truth.
It is then, if you “will not” hear, obey the truth, you will then die for “YOUR” sins, second death.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul (person), which “”will not”” hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Georg

Hi brother Georg,
There is no concept of second death in Judaism or in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of N.T writers. The punishment for sins in Hebrew Bible was physical in this life alone. Therefore there is no requirement for so called vicarious atonement for Adamic sin (Original sin). Man is not sinner by birth as alleged by Christianity rather he is born innocent but he is having limited will to choose good and evil. This was there even before the so called fall of man. Human sacrifice for sin atonement is some thing new to Judaism.

Peace to you
Adam

Like I told kerwin, you too can believe what ever you want, you're not hurting my feelings.
The ONLY responsibility I have is, to tell the truth.
Did Jesus try to SAVE the world?
Did he tell his apostles to SAVE the world?
NO, he told them to go and preach the gospel for a WITNESS.
So, when IS Jesus going to SAVE the world?

Georg

January 16, 2011 at 4:14 pm#236427

Tim Kraft

Participant

All: Jesus came to a dark world that was lost in sin (wrong thinking) The light or truth of God was lacking. Sin is believing in separation from God. Religion or the religious world of that time was lost in ritualistic religion and wrong thinking of how to please or pacify God who was not angry in the first place. Adam had a choice of beliefs just the same as we have today. To believe in the tree of life or believe in good AND EVIL, which is life and death. Adam was told by God that his land was cursed because of him/Adam! Adam was cursed! Not the whole world. I am not held responsible for what others believe. We are each individually responsible unto God. Adam received the evil/death and destruction that he accepted or believed for. The rest of mankind was not cursed. They were mislead. Adam passed his death beliefs down the line from generation to generation. The more that believed in evil the more power it had as a deception of truth. These is the devils we war against. Deception of the truth or lies of the truth are the demons of untruth passed from one man to another. These are the sins of the fathers visited on the children. Untruth about God are the lies that create darkness of the mind.

The light of God is the truth and darkness comes from lies and deceptions about God. I believe we were made perfect by a perfect God to live in a perfect world. Lies and deception believed by the first man, Adam, passed untruth or darkness and destruction down from generation to generation. Man was lost and could not find his way back to God. In his mind! God hadn't really gone anywhere. He's everywhere. Wherewould he go? Even along the way there were still some men who believed they were still in union with God. Like Abraham who believed he was still one with God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Righteousness by faith was throughout time
for men that would believe no matter what.

This situation was what caused the need for salvation of mankind. Man needed to be saved from his error/sin thinking. As long as man believed he was in sin his union with God was split, and unwhole. Who could save mankind from this depth of sin/darkness? Jesus came as light to show the true way for man back to God. Then the truth had come in Jesus and anyone who believes in Jesus was washed clean from all sin and made whole once again with God in perfection as at the beginning. This is my opinion, will it stand the test of truth? TK

January 17, 2011 at 4:36 am#236428

Participant

Hi brother Tim,
I appreciate your contribution on this thread. I can also agree with you on the myth of Original sin (Adamic sin). Yes you are absolutely right in saying that Adam alone was cursed for his sin and not the whole Adamic generations. But I may differ with you on the definition of sin. I believe sin is the transgression of God's commandments. Of course thinking involves in this process but not as you debate on human thinking alone. I can argue if Adamic sin was not passed on to his generations as Original sin where is the question of this so called vicarious atonement for such non-existing sin? I agree with you on saying that human beings are responsible for their own sins for which repentance is necessary before God. In fact there was no blood sacrifice involved in the beginning. If at all God permitted blood sacrifice to atone sin it was through animal blood but not any human blood as Christianity claim. Lev 17:11 no where mentions human blood. In fact God did atone sin through non-blood offerings like prayer with confession and obedience, vegetable flour, silver, Gold, money etc. But I am not convinced of vicarious atonement of Jesus for the sins of all mankind right from Adam and beyond Jesus. Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers for political reasons. In fact crucifixion was a curse than sacrifice forget about vicarious atonement.

I know brothers like Kerwin and Georg curse me for my arguments here. But I am not listening to any Sadducee who does not believe in resurrection at all.

Peace to you and all
Adam

January 17, 2011 at 7:24 am#236429

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,08:54)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,14:33)

Thanks for all your thought provoking responses on this New thread. In fact I too believe what you all posted above but I am not convinced of what the N.T states especially the Epistles on Original sin and Vicarious atonement.

Thanks and peace to you all
Adam

Hi Adam,

Are you willing to progress in our discussion or are you going to continue
with your 'faulty wording'… 'original sin & vicarious atonement'?
Original sin was the rebellion of Lucifer; not Adam's sin!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Adam

January 17, 2011 at 7:50 am#236430

Participant

Instead you explain us what you believe on this Original sin brother Ed.

January 17, 2011 at 9:08 am#236431

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,17:50)

Instead you explain us what you believe on this Original sin brother Ed.

Hi Adam,

Original sin: The rebellion of Lucifer, the anointed cherub that covereth, cast out of the mountain of God!
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev.18:5)

Ezekiel 28:13-17 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,
and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee
in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise(Rev.18:12) they have filled the midst of thee with violence,
and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty(Isaiah 14:13-14),
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground(Isaiah 14:15-16), I will
lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Nahum 1:14 And “The LORD” hath given a commandment concerning thee,
that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off
the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 10:50 am#236432

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,19:08)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,17:50)

Instead you explain us what you believe on this Original sin brother Ed.

Hi Adam,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi brother Ed,
It was a prophecy about king of Tyre but no fallen angel called Lucifer as imagined by Christianity. Again the word 'satan' an adversary is a general title which could be given to an angel, God or man as per Hebrew Bible. There is no original sin involved in this prophecy as you claim. This is nothing to do with Adamic original sin.

I am sorry
Adam

January 17, 2011 at 11:37 am#236433

Tim Kraft

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,14:36)

I know brothers like Kerwin and Georg curse me for my arguments here. But I am not listening to any Sadducee who does not believe in resurrection at all.

Peace to you and all
Adam

Adam: We are close on a monumental subject.

I have always believed in a loving God as revealed by Jesus. I intend to only serve that loving God that Jesus taught about.
Love has many characteristics of which one is that it draws unto itself aspects of itself which causes it to remain whole. Love does not assert itself. Assertion of power, in its self, would be agressive and dominant. Love expands through creation of more love. Love accepts! Love does not rule by force or command. Love allows! Following a commandment must be a punishment for disobeying the command. Love does not punish. Each time in the NT Bible the word “command” is used I believe it is a mis-translation. This is my command, that you love one another. Thats a contradiction. Even the ten commandmenst if they were from God (Jesus called them the law of Moses) I believe should be “suggestions” or “rules for better life” or “good ideas” etc.! Love does not command by force or punishment.

All this means I don't think Adam disobeyed God. He was given a choice to believe any or all the information but the information of good and evil or mixing life & death will not work. Life/love will lay low and death will deceive mans power to dominate.

Let me rephrase what I intended to mean about sin. I tend to believe that sin is any belief or feeling in the heart of man that holds against a person or thing as wrong, bad, evil etc. The act of holding something against will block the free flow of love energy within and without that will eventually lead to pains, sicknesses and diseases. We are individually free creations. In and of ourselves, totally free. Yet we are subject to reaping whatever we sow. Sow good for a good life, sow destruction for a sickly, low, unhappy, diseases life.

I also believe that God/love did not send Jesus to die for an atonement for sin. Jesus made it clear that day in the prateorium that his life was his to pick up and live or lay down to die. Jesus in his great love for mankind laid down his life to save even those following the law that might believe that his death was the final sacrifice. That was the choice of Jesus with great love.

Lastly, we might have trouble here but, I don't believe there were any political reasons to kill Jesus.Jesus was very non-political, Pilot tried to set him free. It was clearly the Jewish Hierarchy of the temple in Jerusalem that demanded the blood of an innocent man to further their religious dominance.

Bless all, TK

January 17, 2011 at 12:03 pm#236434

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,20:50)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,19:08)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,17:50)

Instead you explain us what you believe on this Original sin brother Ed.

Hi Adam,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I am sorry
Adam

Hi Adam,

Adam's sin was not the 'original sin'; but it does still need atonement! (Romans 5:11-12)
Romans 5:11-12 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man(Adam) sin entered
into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

January 17, 2011 at 12:11 pm#236435

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 17 2011,21:37)

Adam: We are close on a monumental subject.

I don't think Adam disobeyed God.

Bless all, TK

Hi Tim,

It would seem: you are not representing “The Facts” correctly!

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest
freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:11-12 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

January 17, 2011 at 2:45 pm#236436

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,08:54)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,14:33)

Thanks and peace to you all
Adam

Hi Adam,

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Then why did God not punish Lucifer, and his devils with death?

Georg

January 17, 2011 at 2:54 pm#236437

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,08:54)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,14:33)

Thanks and peace to you all
Adam

Hi Adam,

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Then why did God not punish Lucifer, and his devils with death?

Georg

Hi Georg,

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 18, 2011 at 4:41 am#236438

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,22:03)

I am sorry
Adam[/quote]
Hi Adam,

Yes you are right Adamic sin is not Original neither Lucifer's sin as you claim. All individual sins should require repentance before God. Atonement was not demanded always. In fact there was no atonement done for Adamic sin either. Only in the Law of God given through Moses God intended atonement for sin through blood as well as non-blood sacrifices for unintentional sins. It is purely the Christian interpretation that Vicarious atonement of Jesus was required for sin atonement which is not supported by Hebrew Bible. Rom 5 is purely Paul's interpretation. Some Scholars still feel that there is no Original sin mentioned in Rom 5. Paul simply says sin entered the world through first man Adam but not that his sin caused all to sin. Man is born innocent even today just like first man and he has been given a freedom (but not Free Will) to choose good and evil similar to what Adam was given. God forgave sins of exiled Jews even without any sacrifice or offering even today He forgives His people who are without Temple and sacrifices. I don't agree with the logics of NT writers on Vicarious atonement of Jesus.

Peace to you
Adam

January 18, 2011 at 5:00 am#236439

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

Man is born with a spirit. Is that spirit the spirit of righteousness?

Have you studied these things in scripture or do you instead choose to take the opinions of others as true without testing them?

I have asked you to look up things in scripture and yet to receive evidence you have.

January 18, 2011 at 6:27 am#236440

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2011,15:00)

Adam,

Man is born with a spirit. Is that spirit the spirit of righteousness?

Have you studied these things in scripture or do you instead choose to take the opinions of others as true without testing them?

I have asked you to look up things in scripture and yet to receive evidence you have.

Hi brother Kerwin,
Yes you are right in saying that man is born with spirit and even animals are born with one as per Gen 1. I don't know why you quote 'spirit of righteousness' always here which is not supported by most of the scriptures. If you mean God's spirit as spirit of righteousness it only required for doing God's works in this world like prophesying, for doing mighty works like Samson, for having wisdom and knowledge etc. It doesn't require for obeying God's commandments as per Hebrew Bible. Even in the New Covenant God only promised to write His Laws on the hearts of the people but not that spirit of righteousness required for doing so. It is not supported by Hebrew Bible. It is purely our Christian interpretation that spirit is required for obeying God's commandments. I ask you whether Abraham received this so called spirit of righteousness to obey God? In Hebrew Bible God sent His spirit for a specific purpose of His own but not for common so called righteousness what you claim here. Please discuss on Original sin and Vicarious atonement which is the subject of this thread.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 18, 2011 at 6:43 am#236441

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 17 2011,21:37)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 17 2011,14:36)

I know brothers like Kerwin and Georg curse me for my arguments here. But I am not listening to any Sadducee who does not believe in resurrection at all.

Peace to you and all
Adam

Adam: We are close on a monumental subject.

Bless all, TK

Hi brother Tim,
Excellent post it is. I agree with much of it. I also believe that Jesus was a pious Jew who preached and practiced true monotheism of the Bible. Yes you may right in saying that Jesus death was martyr death for his people. 'Political' I mean he was killed because of the politics of Jewish authorities as well as Roman who made him a Roman criminal so that he was crucified by Roman authorities. The accounts in Gospels are purely biased writings of Christians who took soft approach towards Roman authorities and harsh towards Jewish people. There is nothing we can imagine that Jewish priesthood intended Jesus death as innocent sacrifice for sin atonement. It is purely the imagination of the writer of Fourth Gospel to claim that High priest himself prophesied that way. It is ridiculous to claim that way.

You said God revealed through Jesus, yes you may be right God revealed through Moses, Prophets and saints in the O.T. Jesus is a special servant of God who called God Abba as if he is the only son of God. But he never reserved this title to himself but offered to everyone who could follow his foot steps. But worshiping Jesus as God is some thing blasphemous according to Jewish monotheism.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

January 18, 2011 at 10:39 am#236442

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

Spirit of righteousness is the driving force of the soul. Compare it to the spirit of arogance, or rebellion, etc. Since true righteousness comes from God the spirit of true righteousness also comes from God.

The last I knew Jews teach the same. I will check though.

The spirit of man is no longer righteous as he went in search of many schemes.

That last is a paraphrase of a scripture from the Old Testiment. Do you know which one?

January 18, 2011 at 11:05 am#236443

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2011,00:54)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 18 2011,00:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,08:54)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,14:33)

Thanks and peace to you all
Adam

Hi Adam,

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Then why did God not punish Lucifer, and his devils with death?

Georg

Hi Georg,

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

They are NOT Lucifer/Satan and his devils.

Georg

January 18, 2011 at 11:20 am#236444