Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 25 2011,20:51)

For me the Old Testament is highly destructive. It produced a destructive religion that left mankind in darkness and sin(ignorance) needing someone to explain the truth of life. Most of the so called gods of the ot were murderers and theives if they truly did what was written. One God says thou shalt not kill. Another so called god sends armys to kill all and steal their spoils. I follow Jesus only. Jesus revealed the God most high as Love. Thats my choice. We get to choose what we want. Like a candy store. For whatever it might mean to anyone reading if you stay in the Gospels of Christ and learn what the master himself, Jesus says you will know the truth and the truth will make you free from all the other crap. IMO, TK

Doesn't it make you wonder why Christianity made the Old Testament the foundation for their belief system?

Without the original sin, there is no need for Jesus.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 25 2011,18:11)

Tim and TK I believe a recent count put the number of christian cults at more like 39,000. Stuart

Thanks Stu.
That is why I said “over 3,000”.
I can't keep up with the constantly escalating number
of denominations.

Aren't they all listening to the same Holy Ghost?
Why isn't the Holy Ghost telling each of them the same thing?

Tim

[Tim Kraft]

Tim: I don't see the foundation of Christianity in the Old Testament. The word Christian came from a nickname given to those who followed Christ after the New Testament. Neither Christ(Jesus) nor Christ (the annointing of God) was revealed in the Old Testament. The Law and the prophets and the psalms spoke of a day when the spirit would awaken. Yes, and that was/is Jesus. The light that would come to show the true way to God (not the ot false ways). Johns water Baptism, a picture of a brain washing away of the error/sin/darkness, turning mankind around(repentance) to head in another direction, unto the light/truth of God. This was right before Jesus, the annointed truth of God, would come to end the old religious world order. The end of the old world. The beginning of God's enlightenment. The truth was come to overcome the darkness and reunite man with God, IN HIS MIND, as it was in the very beginning. No more religion(man made docrtines). A new church built without hands(human being) a New Temple built on the foudation rock of ages, Jesus. The spirit was come. Jesus words are spirit and they are life. God is spirit and God is life.

I have found that most, if not every person I hear, teach their views about their truth of God, maybe even me in some cases, has built what they believe on a foundation of man made doctrines. When you look at all the rituals, rules, sacrifices, bendings, bowings, folding of hands, hymns, candles, feast days, sabbath days, fasting, tithing and many more, they have nothing to do with the God Jesus reveals as love dwelling within each person. An exercise in futility as a means to appease God or get his attention or blessing. If God is your father treat him as a son does to a father. Respect and love, certainly not fear as in afraid of what he might do to you. The whole spirit or Holy Spirit that you refer to as speaking to each of us can only get a message through to us that we are willing to accept. Jesus said his words cleansed us. John15:2. Do we accept that? Do we believe that? Or is there another “voice” that we hear that comes as a thief in the night that says, that can't be the whole truth, and so uproots the truth and we remain unclean. Clean means, sin free, pure before God, perfect in Gods eyes to me. Jesus said he chose us and ordained us for the work/ministry of God. John15:16. Do you believe he did? Then why does anyone go to seminary(nursery)school to be ordained by man? If they are blind they will lead the blind and all hit the pit.

The work today is to believe what Jesus said. John 6:29 Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were up to John the Baptist. Since then the gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached, yet evil men still try to force/work their way to God. Luke 16:16/ “All things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning Jesus…”Luke24:43!

You search the scriptures (ot) for in them you think you have eternal life yet they are they which testify of me(Jesus) that ye might have life. John5:39

The truth revealed from Jesus to mankind in the first four four gospels that established the New Testament, was pure Holy Spirit/God words speaking through Jesus, the expressed word of God!! As for what Jesus wanted mankind to know about God it was contained in those four books. The other books and writers are good but for me the foundation of the new church is Jesus/the four Gospels and maybe Acts (a continuation by the writer to Theophilus).

Just sharing 32years of study got lots of ideas most end up as true for me. IMO, God Bless, TK

[Stu]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 25 2011,21:03)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 25 2011,18:11) Tim and TK I believe a recent count put the number of christian cults at more like 39,000. Stuart Thanks Stu. That is why I said “over 3,000”. I can't keep up with the constantly escalating number of denominations. Aren't they all listening to the same Holy Ghost? Why isn't the Holy Ghost telling each of them the same thing? Tim

Any number above 3,000 is telling!

For me it shows up the success of both democracy and science, whatever each may have as shortcomings. Citizens of a democratic country may not all agree on the wording of the law but they can at least overwhelmingly agree to follow one lawbook.

Science may have arguments and diametrically opposing views regarding the theories central to particular fields, but generally they all relate to situations where there is insufficient evidence to arbitrate between different models. Evidence is respected in the end.

With any splintered religion like christianity or islam there is no agreed means of arbitration and the holy books are so allegorical and open to reinterpretation there is just going to be endless splintering of views.

You'd think it would make christians wonder if there is any omnipotent overlord at work here that can communicate its “will” effectively, or it's just chaotic divergence of opinion about ancient human fantasy stories.

Stuart

[Stu]

TK

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My count would be several billion cults.

Well indeed! The figure of 39,000 is the estimate of an evangelical christian living in the US and of course counts the number of identifiably distinct denominations which are separate for dogmatic reasons, but of course there is a different god inside each believer’s head!

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Every human being has a pathway to truth. Even if their pathway to truth is a pathway to not believing there is a truth. Its what they choose to believe. Just as there are no two snowflakes alike there is not a duplicate path to truth. The way you see your God or no God is the truth to you. What a man believes in his heart, so it is to him.

Yes. I think some confuse “truth” with “what is true”. The former is the personal construct of which you write, and the latter is the body of facts on which we should all reasonably be able to agree. It is always interesting to observe the situations where those two disagree.

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Justice for me cannot be holding a child responsible for doing something that he does not no better not to do. His ignorance is his salvation. Likewise, an adult in this life can flow through life picking and choosing what information to accept and believe or reject as non-truth for him. This for me is the creation of mankind. Each individual choosing his beliefs from a pure clean mental beginning to each point of life. Information comes from thoughts in the mind, actual experience, TV, News, Papers, Books, Mass Media of all kinds, gossip from friends, heresay and conjecture to name some. Most of the information we access is second hand at best and much of what we accept as our own truth would not be accepted in a Court of Law. Heresay, conjecture and repetitions of information believed to be true without any foundation, are the basis of probably 95% of what we think we know.

So then is it reasonable to say that your best chance is to form a worldview based around making your “truth” fit “that which is true” as closely as you can?

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Here is the problem. IMO, mankind was created as a creator of his own destiny. What a man chooses to believe, think on, ponder, pay attention to in his mind will draw into his universe of life the very things he believes. If he believes fear based thoughts or information like “if you go outside in the rain, barefooted, you will catch a cold” and expresses it as truth to others, he will experience that very belief. There are thousands of thoughts flowing through the mind 24/7. Jesus said guard your heart(mind) with all diligence for from it flow the issues of life. Jesus said it is not what goes into a man that defiles(makes him unclean,makes him sick). It is what comes out of the man that defiles him. For from a man come adulteries, fornications, lies, deceptions etc.! These are thoughts before they are actions. Jesus said, whatsoever a man sayeth, believing in his heart that he will receive it, he shall have whatsoever thing. Jesus was not teaching us a new religion. Jesus was teaching us the way to pure life/God. You will reap what you sow from your mind/heart. If you sow goodness, you will reap a life of the same. Jesus said if you should say to the mountain(or a situation at hand) be thou plucked up and move away it should obey you. It obeyed him. He controled the wind and rain, sickness and disease, life and death, transformation and levitation and more. Then said to his disciples, the things I do you can do also and greater things. This peaked my interest. Jesus the God/Man who paid his taxes with a fish. Walked to the boat on the lake. Fed 5k MEN (I sure there were more with women and kids) with a small amount of food.

You provide the material for an example of what I mean. Can people respect the “truth” you have constructed if, regardless of the agreement we might have about the ethical thinking of it, it is not “true” that we can know what Jesus actually said, let alone the magic he is claimed to have performed?

I disagree on the question of adultery and fornication, by the way. If each of those activities was erased from history then it is very likely that neither you nor I would have been born. It is not the acts themselves that are the problem, it is the deception of those in a relationship of trust with the person committing them. I think religions that differ to a holy book get stuck in an infantile state of ethical thinking, and that appears to have been demonstrated well by the work of Kohlberg especially in regard to biblical literalists. They focus on acts not principles and get stuck with the ethical thinking of a 4 year old for life.

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For me the Old Testament is highly destructive. It produced a destructive religion that left mankind in darkness and sin(ignorance) needing someone to explain the truth of life. Most of the so called gods of the ot were murderers and theives if they truly did what was written. One God says thou shalt not kill. Another so called god sends armys to kill all and steal their spoils. I follow Jesus only. Jesus revealed the God most high as Love. Thats my choice. We get to choose what we want. Like a candy store. For whatever it might mean to anyone reading if you stay in the Gospels of Christ and learn what the master himself, Jesus says you will know the truth and the truth will make you free from all the other crap.

As Christopher Hitchens has pointed out, there were a few opportunities in the first few centuries CE for christians to cast off the Jewish bible, for example at Nicaea which is the most politically significant one. What did they do with that opportunity? They saddled up their religion with the creeds of a Jewish god incompatible with their own. What were they thinking?

That still leaves the question of vicarious punishment though. The god of the Torah might be an unspeakable monster that is entirely ill-matched with the man-god meek and mild, baby Jesus, but how is it right that a christian can be exonerated from his responsibilities through the judicial manslaughter of an early Iron Age preacher?

Stuart

[Tim Kraft]

Stu: Greetings and good morning. Thank you for the response. Would it suprise you if we weren't eye to eye so to speak in our beliefs?

I believe this physical world is created in duality of opposing forces, that make up all movement of life, ebb & flow, yin and yang, up & down, hot & cold etc.! In this world of relativity there may not be “a truth” or “the truth”. All life is a relative perception to many various elevations & viewpoints. The viewpoints of one's personal truth, are built on previous beliefs he has accepted and stored within the mind, which alter new perceptions of the same truth. Everything we see today as truth, may be, or could be and probably should be altered tomorrow. All new knowledge is subject to perceptions garnered from various viewpoints previously. This changes the perception of truth constantly. Evolution in the Earth includes all things even earth truth. One, new scientific discovery today, can alter or completely change what we thought we knew yesterday. Quantum physics is blowing the lid off of science as we knew it. Einstein hated quantum for the fact that it couldn't be scientifically measured and substantiated. It is so small that all that exist's is entangled into ONE. Even the mind of an observer could change its structure.

It may be hard to accept but whatever we choose to accept as truth for ourselves, and believe it in our hearts and it becomes truth to us!
So back to billions of people with billions of truth's created by each person of the truth he sees, understands and expects in life. Thereby he creates his own existence. Your mind is your life, as far as you are concerned. What you think is what you experience. If your mind is filled with thoughts and beliefs established over time of positive, agressive, no fear, I can do anything, you will create that particular life. Any force of energy contemplated and believed with whole heart, collects and creates an “aura” of that particular electromagnetic energy around each person. Their spirit body. Jesus spirit body was so strong he glowed at times, hence the pictures with a halo. Thoughts and words are spirit, so high vibration, positive spirit energy surrounds that individual and draws like energy to it like a magnet. You experience the feeling of the energy you have created around you. Positive energy vibrates faster unto the feeling of bliss and non-positive energy vibtates slower unto darkness & depression.
Then the snowball effect of powerful positive energy drawing more and more positive energy until it begins to manifest in the physical world as your perceived life. This is what I see Jesus telling mankind. He was not trying to establish another type of church service. He disliked the entire ot chruch structure. His teaching was of the end of the previous world order and the effecting of the New World order with the Kingdom of God witin each person completely tore down the old testament church. The new way was the original way, God/man together. God made his home, abode, temple, church inside each human being. Everything was completed by Jesus, all incorrect

thinking/darkness had been replaced with the truth. Sin or wrong thinking that there even was sin, had been taken away by the truth of Jesus. The words of God through Jesus cleansed us and made us whole(non-divided in mind) washed us with the baptism of truth from God the father.

Everyone, now is God/man whether they accept it or don't. Whether they know it or they don't. Whether they experience it or not is up to them. It was a free gift with no cost. In my findings I don't believe Jesus had to die to complete Gods plan. Jesus said his life was his to pick up or lay down, NOBODY TAKES IT AWAY FROM ME! I think he meant it. Yet in his great love for the misguided religious masses of the time he layed down his own life so that, right or wrong, people could call it the final sacrifice of God that cleansed mankind for all time. Its sad to hear his followers today say they still sin or are in sin. I guess that sacrifice wasn't enough for them. Enough ramble, All IMO, TK

[Stu]

TK

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I believe this physical world is created in duality of opposing forces, that make up all movement of life, ebb & flow, yin and yang, up & down, hot & cold etc.!

That sounds like a platitude to me, although refreshingly a new age one, not necessarily a religious one!

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In this world of relativity there may not be “a truth” or “the truth”. All life is a relative perception to many various elevations & viewpoints. The viewpoints of one's personal truth, are built on previous beliefs he has accepted and stored within the mind, which alter new perceptions of the same truth. Everything we see today as truth, may be, or could be and probably should be altered tomorrow. All new knowledge is subject to perceptions garnered from various viewpoints previously. This changes the perception of truth constantly. Evolution in the Earth includes all things even earth truth. One, new scientific discovery today, can alter or completely change what we thought we knew yesterday. Quantum physics is blowing the lid off of science as we knew it. Einstein hated quantum for the fact that it couldn't be scientifically measured and substantiated. It is so small that all that exist's is entangled into ONE. Even the mind of an observer could change its structure.

I disagree. No breakthrough in the past 300 years has changed the fact that engineers would still use Newton’s Laws of motion. Einstein’s modifications of them are very specialist cases that have allowed us to develop new technology but Einstein has only modified Newton’s work, he hasn’t disproved it as a working approximation of motion relationships. And thus it goes with other concepts too. Quantum science is not “blowing the lid off” anything really. The Rutherford-Bohr atomic model still works for most chemistry. Darwin is still right. It may be that people say that discoveries of the quantum world has turned physics on its head, but it has not significantly changed the physics that was already being used. If you want to design a rollercoaster then quantum mechanics makes no difference to your calculations.

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It may be hard to accept but whatever we choose to accept as truth for ourselves, and believe it in our hearts and it becomes truth to us! So back to billions of people with billions of truth's created by each person of the truth he sees, understands and expects in life. Thereby he creates his own existence. Your mind is your life, as far as you are concerned. What you think is what you experience. If your mind is filled with thoughts and beliefs established over time of positive, agressive, no fear, I can do anything, you will create that particular life.

I think we agree on this point, but believing something doesn’t make it a fact on which everyone should reasonably agree.

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Any force of energy contemplated and believed with whole heart, collects and creates an “aura” of that particular electromagnetic energy around each person.

Pseudoscience. Your truth would appear to be at odds with what should reasonably be believed as a fact.

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Their spirit body. Jesus spirit body was so strong he glowed at times, hence the pictures with a halo. Thoughts and words are spirit, so high vibration, positive spirit energy surrounds that individual and draws like energy to it like a magnet. You experience the feeling of the energy you have created around you. Positive energy vibrates faster unto the feeling of bliss and non-positive energy vibtates slower unto darkness & depression. Then the snowball effect of powerful positive energy drawing more and more positive energy until it begins to manifest in the physical world as your perceived life. This is what I see Jesus telling mankind. He was not trying to establish another type of church service. He disliked the entire ot chruch structure. His teaching was of the end of the previous world order and the effecting of the New World order with the Kingdom of God witin each person completely tore down the old testament church. The new way was the original way, God/man together. God made his home, abode, temple, church inside each human being. Everything was completed by Jesus, all incorrect thinking/darkness had been replaced with the truth. Sin or wrong thinking that there even was sin, had been taken away by the truth of Jesus. The words of God through Jesus cleansed us and made us whole(non-divided in mind) washed us with the baptism of truth from God the father.

Two unsupported claim of paranormal activity, ten religious platitudes and six more examples of pseudoscience.

No partridges in any pear trees, I notice.
What does any of it mean?

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Everyone, now is God/man whether they accept it or don't. Whether they know it or they don't.

Religious platitude.

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Whether they experience it or not is up to them. It was a free gift with no cost.

Religious platitude.

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In my findings I don't believe Jesus had to die to complete Gods plan. Jesus said his life was his to pick up or lay down, NOBODY TAKES IT AWAY FROM ME! I think he meant it. Yet in his great love for the misguided religious masses of the time he layed down his own life so that, right or wrong, people could call it the final sacrifice of God that cleansed mankind for all time. Its sad to hear his followers today say they still sin or are in sin. I guess that sacrifice wasn't enough for them.

You are affirming for yourself what I think is an immoral position to take: you think that abandonment of responsibility for wrongdoing can be achieved by a man dying. I have some vague memory that this is related to the name of the thread also!

Should I just carry on thinking you to be immoral, or is vicarious punishment arguable in ethical terms?

Stuart

[Tim Kraft]

Stu: Think what you choose to think, it matters not what I say. Whmm? Immoral? If I am immoral there must needs be a law of morality. If there is no God per your belief, then what law of morality and who established it? Morality is God. Morality is a part of God built in the human being. Morality, built in, desires fair play. Morality desires justice. Morality is what pushes a man to do what he feels is right and just.

Morality is the escence of a mans being. Morality is built into a human in order to have a built in sense right and wrong to others. Immorality usurps morality by greed and cunning and desire to accuire more and better that our brothers and sisters. Immorality would be to me the opposite of morality. Everything morality requires is from the heart not from a law or rule. God said in the NT that he would write his laws on the hearts of men, that to me is morality. Laws and rules on the outside, comand a man what to do, say, eat, drink,

believe etc.! No human on earth likes to be told what to do. Thats the God in them. Ask of me and I will give you my all, demand from me and we go to war! If there is an outside written law of morality, there is judgment to see if a law was broken, and if broken a sin/wrong committed to be judged and a punishment for the sin! A law on the outside of man, telling him what to do or not do, is more likely to be broken than a built in morality of love and caring for another, from within, that influences ones decision. I felt like I raised the bar of morality by following the love I have for others with a built in desire for fair play and integrity. Now I am deemed immoral. Maybe I should stop writing.

Back to the thread title. If one believes that an original sin is a myth (I tend to agree but its not fully assessed yet) then there was no need for atonement or redemption of mankind. Yet because man split God in two, in his mind by believing evil along with good his recompense for the choice was what God had told him before. Paraphrased: God told Adam, if you eat/partake of the knowledge of evil/death and destruction, not only will you die but those after you, who accept your belief in evil, will eventually die, individually and as a complete speicies. Evil is destruction of life.

So life and death passed down through mankind in their thinking, which caused division, judgment, sin and punishment for sin. Sin actually was an error of thinking. Sin was an error of belief in the heart of man being passed from one to another like a plague. The original sin may have been believing there was an original sin. Sin is believing there is sin (against God). Sin is a mistake. Sin is error of thought. There was no sin, so man believed a lie that there was sin. SIN MAY HAVE BEEN A LIE FROM THE BEGINNING!

The lie of sin against God became the religion of mankind. Always believing he was doing wrong or God was angry. Always trying to bow down, fold hands, light candles, offer money, offerings of appeasement, sabbath days, rituals, feasts, fasts and on and on. Sacrifices of animals, that as near as I can tell the most high God of Jesus, never required.

At the switching of the covenants, the end of the ot and the start of the NT everything changed. The ot physical temple and worship was change to Nt spirit words of God through Jesus as to the truth. Believing the words of Jesus created all those previous things, the temple, the church, the body of Christ all within the human being that would accept and believe.

The masses still believed in the temple sacrifice. So to turn the minds of the ot people to the new truth, of all by faith, Jesus presented himself, his body, his life as the final sacrifice forever! That sacrifice was intended to convince the peoples minds of their purification unto God forever. That sacrifice was the sacrifice of Jesus, himself. He said, my life is mine…I lay it down that I may also pick it up again. God did not command it. Love does not kill(or command). Jesus gave up his own life to save the world from the sin error of thinking that there was or is a sin that separates man from God. This act was intended to take away sin forever for those who believe. Not many believe!!

Vicarious: Something shared in by imagined participation! For all who believe that the death of Jesus took away sin forever, it did!! TK

[princess]

Stuart,

just for clarification, what science?
there are as many denominations as there are science fields.

perhaps with this knowledge of your science denomination would help one better to understand what you are presenting.

this is due to reading your prior posts, i cannot follow since you are all over the place with what science has to offer.

i mean is there such a thing as 'universal science'

take care Stuart.

[Stu]

TK

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Immoral? If I am immoral there must needs be a law of morality.

Why a “law”? Why not just morality?

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If there is no God per your belief, then what law of morality and who established it?

Natural selection and cultural discourse established it.

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Morality is God. Morality is a part of God built in the human being. Morality, built in, desires fair play. Morality desires justice. Morality is what pushes a man to do what he feels is right and just.

What principle of morality was demonstrated by your god’s killing of Uzzah when he was just trying to help? What principle of justice leads to your god blinding some non-believers so they cannot see “him”?

Intelligent Design creationists see much in humans that they claim was designed by god. I see a lot in this described god that was designed by humans.

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Morality is the escence of a mans being. Morality is built into a human in order to have a built in sense right and wrong to others. Immorality usurps morality by greed and cunning and desire to accuire more and better that our brothers and sisters. Immorality would be to me the opposite of morality. Everything morality requires is from the heart not from a law or rule. God said in the NT that he would write his laws on the hearts of men, that to me is morality. Laws and rules on the outside, comand a man what to do, say, eat, drink, believe etc.! No human on earth likes to be told what to do. Thats the God in them. Ask of me and I will give you my all, demand from me and we go to war! If there is an outside written law of morality, there is judgment to see if a law was broken, and if broken a sin/wrong committed to be judged and a punishment for the sin!

And more about the punishment of sins below!

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A law on the outside of man, telling him what to do or not do, is more likely to be broken than a built in morality of love and caring for another, from within, that influences ones decision. I felt like I raised the bar of morality by following the love I have for others with a built in desire for fair play and integrity. Now I am deemed immoral. Maybe I should stop writing.

That is not the reason I think your belief system is immoral. By the way, I don’t really think you are immoral because since gods only exist in believers’ heads, then actually there is no such thing as vicarious punishment really. You still believe in it though.

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Back to the thread title. If one believes that an original sin is a myth (I tend to agree but its not fully assessed yet)

What, you are expecting more evidence to come to light? Maybe we should wait until a better investigation has been done before we finally reject ancient Roman polytheism!

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then there was no need for atonement or redemption of mankind. Yet because man split God in two, in his mind by believing evil along with good his recompense for the choice was what God had told him before. Paraphrased: God told Adam, if you eat/partake of the knowledge of evil/death and destruction, not only will you die but those after you, who accept your belief in evil, will eventually die, individually and as a complete speicies. Evil is destruction of life. So life and death passed down through mankind in their thinking, which caused division, judgment, sin and punishment for sin. Sin actually was an error of thinking. Sin was an error of belief in the heart of man being passed from one to another like a plague. The original sin may have been believing there was an original sin. Sin is believing there is sin (against God). Sin is a mistake. Sin is error of thought. There was no sin, so man believed a lie that there was sin. SIN MAY HAVE BEEN A LIE FROM THE BEGINNING!

This is all incredibly boring. Do you spend a lot of your time thinking about all this? Even for a believer in Imaginary Friends, is this what life is for, do you think?

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The lie of sin against God became the religion of mankind. Always believing he was doing wrong or God was angry. Always trying to bow down, fold hands, light candles, offer money, offerings of appeasement, sabbath days, rituals, feasts, fasts and on and on. Sacrifices of animals, that as near as I can tell the most high God of Jesus, never required. At the switching of the covenants, the end of the ot and the start of the NT everything changed. The ot physical temple and worship was change to Nt spirit words of God through Jesus as to the truth. Believing the words of Jesus created all those previous things, the temple, the church, the body of Christ all within the human being that would accept and believe.

This is an off-the-shelf truth that one does not have to construct for oneself? In what way does it match things that are true?

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The masses still believed in the temple sacrifice. So to turn the minds of the ot people to the new truth, of all by faith, Jesus presented himself, his body, his life as the final sacrifice forever! That sacrifice was intended to convince the peoples minds of their purification unto God forever. That sacrifice was the sacrifice of Jesus, himself. He said, my life is mine…I lay it down that I may also pick it up again. God did not command it. Love does not kill(or command). Jesus gave up his own life to save the world from the sin error of thinking that there was or is a sin that separates man from God. This act was intended to take away sin forever for those who believe. Not many believe!! Vicarious: Something shared in by imagined participation! For all who believe that the death of Jesus took away sin forever, it did!!

I think you are playing with words. I have no idea what you mean, actually. Jesus died so you would stop believing that there is such a thing as a sin that separates you from god??

Perhaps you disagree with some or all of:

Matthew 20:28
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 2:24
1 Peter 3:18
1 John 3:8
Romans 3:25
Romans 8:3
1 Corinthians 5:7
Ephesians 5:2
Hebrews 10:12
1 John 2:2
1 John 4:10

I think you are dodging the question of vicarious punishment, of abandoning responsibility to a human sacrifice, and
all I can ask is that you not do me the monstrous disservice of claiming this abomination in my name.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (princess @ Feb. 28 2011,01:25)

Stuart, just for clarification, what science? there are as many denominations as there are science fields. perhaps with this knowledge of your science denomination would help one better to understand what you are presenting. this is due to reading your prior posts, i cannot follow since you are all over the place with what science has to offer. i mean is there such a thing as 'universal science' take care Stuart.

There are not 39,000 different interpretations of science. Scientific models of the same idea tend to resolve to one model over time. The opposite happens with religious beliefs.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2011,16:08)

TK What principle of morality was demonstrated by your god’s killing of Uzzah when he was just trying to help?   Stuart

Hi Stuart,

That was not written by a “Prophet” of God!
The scribe of the King is as reliable to truth
as 'the press secretary' to the President is.
We have discussed this before, remember?

Nicole Tesla did surmise “The Ark”(63) acted
much like a giant capacitor; explaining why
“YHVH”(63) explained how to use wooden
staves to safely move The Ark in transport. (Exodus 25:13-15)

                        God's Signature
             The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)

יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
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[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 28 2011,16:47)

We have discussed this before, remember?

I do. I thought your answer was ridiculous.

I expect I will find TK's ridiculous too, if he answers at all.

None of this is a reflection on you personally, just a reflection on the silly ideas that have hijacked your brain.

Stuart

[princess]

Quote

Scientific models of the same idea tend to resolve to one model over time.

so science branches off to different areas, then comes back to one as it evolves.

strange, Stuart, the teachings have the same ring, just a different tone.

don't you think.

[Stu]

Quote (princess @ Feb. 28 2011,23:48)

Quote Scientific models of the same idea tend to resolve to one model over time. so science branches off to different areas, then comes back to one as it evolves. strange, Stuart, the teachings have the same ring, just a different tone. don't you think.

I don't think science involves “teachings” does it? Teachings implies dogmas to be swallowed, I always think.

You might want to learn what discoveries have been made by the scientific method, but you better also learn that theories stand and fall on evidence.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 01 2011,16:14)

Quote (princess @ Feb. 28 2011,23:48) Quote Scientific models of the same idea tend to resolve to one model over time. so science branches off to different areas, then comes back to one as it evolves. strange, Stuart, the teachings have the same ring, just a different tone. don't you think. I don't think science involves “teachings” does it?  Teachings implies dogmas to be swallowed, I always think. You might want to learn what discoveries have been made by the scientific method, but you better also learn that theories stand and fall on evidence. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Science teaches, and Science evolves; Science is your 'god'.
And since 'your god' evolves, you “FALSELY” believe we do too!

2Cor.4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[Stu]

I realise some christians hold science as a gold standard to be admired for its phenomenal success, while simultaneously trying to drag it down to the gutter level occupied by the business of believing in things without unambiguous evidence for them, but I'm afraid your strawman does not describe the science I know.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 02 2011,18:15)

I realise some christians hold science as a gold standard to be admired for its phenomenal success, while simultaneously trying to drag it down to the gutter level occupied by the business of believing in things without unambiguous evidence for them, but I'm afraid your strawman does not describe the science I know. Stuart

Hi Stuart,

What about 'evolution'? You call it science, but it is 'only' a belief!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

To all,

Scientists have the problem of group think when they come up with one model to answer a number of questions. As they come up with additional evidence they have to spin it so it fits in with their previously conceived notions.

That is why when their interpretation of scant evidence indicated hot gas giant's were sometimes located near suns they decided they jettted there from further out in the system. That hypothosis explained the aparent observation but was not actually testable except possible in computer modeling. I have no idea if such modeling ever occured.

There is actually a name for this but I cannot remember what it is.

Never the less that is not what this thread is about so perhaps the conversation about such things should be moved to another thread where it is more apropriate.

[kerwin]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 25 2011,15:59)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 25 2011,20:51) For me the Old Testament is highly destructive. It produced a destructive religion that left mankind in darkness and sin(ignorance) needing someone to explain the truth of life. Most of the so called gods of the ot were murderers and theives if they truly did what was written. One God says thou shalt not kill. Another so called god sends armys to kill all and steal their spoils. I follow Jesus only. Jesus revealed the God most high as Love. Thats my choice. We get to choose what we want. Like a candy store. For whatever it might mean to anyone reading if you stay in the Gospels of Christ and learn what the master himself, Jesus says you will know the truth and the truth will make you free from all the other crap. IMO, TK Doesn't it make you wonder why Christianity made the Old Testament the foundation for their belief system? Without the original sin, there is no need for Jesus. Tim

You are correct though I understand things differently than other of those who call themselves Christians.

I believe one result of the origional sin is that mankind became a slave to sin because the spirit of mankind was corrupted by the sins of both Adam and Eve.  Jesus was conceived, born, lived, taught, sacrificed himself, was resurected, and ascended to heaven in order that mankind could be freed from that slavery and become servants of righteousness.

Jesus was a Jew and taught the interpretaion of the Old Testiment that God spoke through him.  That is why the “Jewish religion” was chosen.

[Author]

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