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Paladin said:
Quote My response does not comprise the “whole story of Jesus.” It was a simple question, requiring a simple response. It does not require me to supply all that I know about Jesus to answer the question. As for your view telling the whole story of Jesus, it tells far more than the “whole story of Jesus,” because you tell of a pre-existance of Jesus that I do not find in scripture.
I do appreciate the change in demeanor of your post, and will try to calm down myself.
Paladin,
You dodged my point which is this: In His exalted condition Christ EQUALLY owns ALL truth with the Father. He said,Quote I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth…..He will bring glory to me taking of WHAT IS MINE and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father IS MINE. This is why I said that he will take of what IS MINE and make it known to you. (John 16:12-15) This means that you CANNOT invoke statements inwhich Jesus said “my doctrine is not mine” and prove that He is less than God NOW. For He made those kinds of statements BEFORE His exaltation. And why would it matter if Jesus was pre-existent or not. He is NOW exalted. His exaltation means that He in the least enjoys functional equality with God. So pre-existent or not He is NOW is Lord and therefore sovereign!
You are in error about His pre-existence. He said that the Son of Man “came down from heaven.” This is an example of many clear assertions of His pre-existence. So when you say that you don't see it I think it is because you are blinded by your own paradigm.
You find fault with my demeanor. Yet you slander those who disagree with you. btw, please note that Jesus said that the Spirit would bring glory to Jesus,
Quote HE WILL BRING GLORY TO ME TAKING OF WHAT IS MINE and making it known to you. Jesus receiving glory has got to be a tough pill for you to swallow.
THINKER
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2009,15:55) Hi BD,
Jesus called himself THE son of man.
The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.
The son of man is not some title it means mankindNumbers 23:19 (King James Version)
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Job 25:5-6 (King James Version)
6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psalm 8:4 (King James Version)
4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Isaiah 51:12 (King James Version)
12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
I have shown you throughout the scriptures that The son of Man means mankind and nothing more.
Therefore the Sabbath was made for mankind and is the lord of it also.
bodhitharta said to Nick:
Quote I have shown you throughout the scriptures that The son of Man means mankind and nothing more. Therefore the Sabbath was made for mankind and is the lord of it also.
bd,
Man is not Lord of the sabbath just because it was made for him. All that it means is that it was made for man's benefit. If man was Lord of the sabbath then why did the law require a man be put to death for breaking it? The sabbath law was ABOVE man because law is above man. The term “Son of man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title.Quote No man has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven” (John 3:13) You can't derive your definitions from the old testement. According to the new testament the Son of Man is God. In Matthew 26 Jesus was charged with blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of Man. If Jesus simply meant I am “mankind” they would not have charged Him with blasphemy. You need to get out of the old testament and get into the new testament where you belong.
thinker
Hi TT,
Really?The Son of man is the Son of God, not God.
God was in him reconciling the world to himself.[2cor5]Quote (thethinker @ June 09 2009,08:20) bodhitharta said to Nick: Quote I have shown you throughout the scriptures that The son of Man means mankind and nothing more. Therefore the Sabbath was made for mankind and is the lord of it also.
bd,
Man is not Lord of the sabbath just because it was made for him. All that it means is that it was made for man's benefit. If man was Lord of the sabbath then why did the law require a man be put to death for breaking it? The sabbath law was ABOVE man because law is above man. The term “Son of man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title.Quote No man has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven” (John 3:13) You can't derive your definitions from the old testement. According to the new testament the Son of Man is God. In Matthew 26 Jesus was charged with blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of Man. If Jesus simply meant I am “mankind” they would not have charged Him with blasphemy. You need to get out of the old testament and get into the new testament where you belong.
thinker
Elijah ascended up to heaven alive just like Jesus and so did Enoch.If the sabbath was made for man then Man is the lord of it.
The Law was made for Man too but the scripture says that the Law was made for Law breakers.
Quote (thethinker @ June 09 2009,08:20) bodhitharta said to Nick: Quote I have shown you throughout the scriptures that The son of Man means mankind and nothing more. Therefore the Sabbath was made for mankind and is the lord of it also.
bd,
Man is not Lord of the sabbath just because it was made for him. All that it means is that it was made for man's benefit. If man was Lord of the sabbath then why did the law require a man be put to death for breaking it? The sabbath law was ABOVE man because law is above man. The term “Son of man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title.Quote No man has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven” (John 3:13) You can't derive your definitions from the old testement. According to the new testament the Son of Man is God. In Matthew 26 Jesus was charged with blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of Man. If Jesus simply meant I am “mankind” they would not have charged Him with blasphemy. You need to get out of the old testament and get into the new testament where you belong.
thinker
BTW, Jesus did not get charged for blasphemy for saying he was the son of man. Let me make this clear: You are completely incorrect this is what Jesus Said:John 10:35-36 (King James Version)
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I have shown you through the scriptures, God bless you.
Hi BD,
So the commands given to the Jews regarding the sabbath were a joke?
Jesus fulfilled all the OT commands and was the firstborn from the dead.He was given all authority .
And not a jot or tittle will vanish from the Law.
Those who denigrate it do not find favour with our Lord.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,14:43) Hi BD,
So the commands given to the Jews regarding the sabbath were a joke?
Jesus fulfilled all the OT commands and was the firstborn from the dead.He was given all authority .
And not a jot or tittle will vanish from the Law.
Those who denigrate it do not find favour with our Lord.
Jesus did not violate the sabbath they were incorrect about observing the sabbath. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, The woman was made for man too that she might be a helpmate that doesn't mean you should commit adultery because you are her lord does it?God almighty even chastized those he called gods for being unjust, therefore God giving commands does not hinder someone from being the lord over what God has ordained them to be lord over.
God told mankind to be LORD over the whole earth.
Many were raised from the dead before Jesus and at least Elijah and Enoch went to heaven without even dying. You should know these things.
Am I not showing you directly through the scriptures:
2 Kings 2
1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.Hi BD,
The Jews were not lords of their Law.
The law was their schoolmaster.Man and wife are one.
Man's missing flesh rejoined.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,15:14) Hi BD,
The Jews were not lords of their Law.
The law was their schoolmaster.Man and wife are one.
Man's missing flesh rejoined.
Mans missing flesh rejoined is correct and so is reconciliation to God.God does not give us laws or commands for naught. When we follow the will of God we are Lords of those commands and likewise we are judged for failure as lords
Bodhitharta siad:
Quote Elijah ascended up to heaven alive just like Jesus and so did Enoch. If the sabbath was made for man then Man is the lord of it.
The Law was made for Man too but the scripture says that the Law was made for Law breakers.
The Bible no where says that Elijah and Enoch ascended into heaven. Jesus said that no man had ascended into heaven, if men could go to heaven before the cross then Jesus did not need to die. Nothing is said about Elijah. It says that Enoch went up to the SKY and disintegrated. Hebrews 11 says that Enoch died. The Bible no where says that man is Lord of the sabbath. This is an unfounded inference on your part. When the sabbath was in effect man was under it and God/Jesus was Lord over it. The sabbath has been abolished in the new covenant so it doesn't matter now.
thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote BTW, Jesus did not get charged for blasphemy for saying he was the son of man. Let me make this clear: You are completely incorrect…. bd,
You are only partially correct. Jesus was charged with blasphemy for making Himself the Son of God and ALSO for making Himsef the Son of Man. When He claimed to be the Son of Man Caiaphas the high priest tore off his clothes which was a sign to all that Jesus had blasphemed (Matt.26).Both terms “Son of God” and “Son of Man” were divine titles. This is why Jesus was charged with blasphemy for claiming both titles for Himself.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,04:16) Bodhitharta siad: Quote Elijah ascended up to heaven alive just like Jesus and so did Enoch. If the sabbath was made for man then Man is the lord of it.
The Law was made for Man too but the scripture says that the Law was made for Law breakers.
The Bible no where says that Elijah and Enoch ascended into heaven. Jesus said that no man had ascended into heaven, if men could go to heaven before the cross then Jesus did not need to die. Nothing is said about Elijah. It says that Enoch went up to the SKY and disintegrated. Hebrews 11 says that Enoch died. The Bible no where says that man is Lord of the sabbath. This is an unfounded inference on your part. When the sabbath was in effect man was under it and God/Jesus was Lord over it. The sabbath has been abolished in the new covenant so it doesn't matter now.
thinker
2 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version)11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.Does this scripture not say that God took Elijah “into” heaven?
Please don't say that heaven in this case really only means sky because if you say that then Jesus is only saying Sky too but the above scriptures say that The Lord took Elijah “into” heaven so that's where he went.
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,04:23) bodhitharta said: Quote BTW, Jesus did not get charged for blasphemy for saying he was the son of man. Let me make this clear: You are completely incorrect…. bd,
You are only partially correct. Jesus was charged with blasphemy for making Himself the Son of God and ALSO for making Himsef the Son of Man. When He claimed to be the Son of Man Caiaphas the high priest tore off his clothes which was a sign to all that Jesus had blasphemed (Matt.26).Both terms “Son of God” and “Son of Man” were divine titles. This is why Jesus was charged with blasphemy for claiming both titles for Himself.
thinker
Matthew 26
64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.They were not saying he blaphemed because he called himself the Son of Man but because he was claiming the right hand of Power
Son of Man simply means mankind, children of Adam. I have already given numerous examples of this but for the sake of argument I will give a few here again:
Job 25: (King James Version)
6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm
Psalm 146:2-4 (King James Version)
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Also keep in mind that in Hebrew all the letters are the same so capitalization is what we place importance on but the original writings had no such capitalization so god, God or GOD is all the same in Hebrew. We like to capitalize Son of God when it comes to Jesus but other places that say son of God we don't capitalize the s but it is not written that way in the original scripture.
Bodhitharta wrote:
Quote 2 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version) 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.Does this scripture not say that God took Elijah “into” heaven?
Please don't say that heaven in this case really only means sky because if you say that then Jesus is only saying Sky too but the above scriptures say that The Lord took Elijah “into” heaven so that's where he went.
Hebrews 11 says that they ALL died in faith having not received the promise (vs. 13). Hebrews also says that without us they SHOULD NOT be made perfect. Jesus said that NO man had ascended into heaven. Elijah was caught up to the sky and we don't know what happened to him after that. He could have went to paradise which was not heaven.
MEN COULD NOT GO TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE CROSS. IF THEY COULD THEN THE CROSS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
Jesus said that NO MAN has ascended into heaven except he which came down from heaven which is the Son of Man (John 3:13). Well, looks like Jesus was kind of confused.
Heaven in 2 Kings and in John 3 are NOT the same place. Your view makes the cross unnecessary. If one man can go to heaven without his sins being paid for then Jesus need not have died.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,05:18) Bodhitharta wrote: Quote 2 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version) 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.Does this scripture not say that God took Elijah “into” heaven?
Please don't say that heaven in this case really only means sky because if you say that then Jesus is only saying Sky too but the above scriptures say that The Lord took Elijah “into” heaven so that's where he went.
Hebrews 11 says that they ALL died in faith having not received the promise (vs. 13). Hebrews also says that without us they SHOULD NOT be made perfect. Jesus said that NO man had ascended into heaven. Elijah was caught up to the sky and we don't know what happened to him after that. He could have went to paradise which was not heaven.
MEN COULD NOT GO TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE CROSS. IF THEY COULD THEN THE CROSS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
Jesus said that NO MAN has ascended into heaven except he which came down from heaven which is the Son of Man (John 3:13). Well, looks like Jesus was kind of confused.
Heaven in 2 Kings and in John 3 are NOT the same place. Your view makes the cross unnecessary. If one man can go to heaven without his sins being paid for then Jesus need not have died.
thinker
Jesus ascended to heaven physically, they touched him. Remember Thomas touching his hands and sides? He was not a ghost, he was alive.Jesus was finish his mission before the cross:
John 17:3-5 (King James Version)
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
I am showing you the scriptures, the work was finished before the cross.
Quote (thethinker @ June 10 2009,05:18) Bodhitharta wrote: Quote 2 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version) 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.Does this scripture not say that God took Elijah “into” heaven?
Please don't say that heaven in this case really only means sky because if you say that then Jesus is only saying Sky too but the above scriptures say that The Lord took Elijah “into” heaven so that's where he went.
Hebrews 11 says that they ALL died in faith having not received the promise (vs. 13). Hebrews also says that without us they SHOULD NOT be made perfect. Jesus said that NO man had ascended into heaven. Elijah was caught up to the sky and we don't know what happened to him after that. He could have went to paradise which was not heaven.
MEN COULD NOT GO TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE CROSS. IF THEY COULD THEN THE CROSS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
Jesus said that NO MAN has ascended into heaven except he which came down from heaven which is the Son of Man (John 3:13). Well, looks like Jesus was kind of confused.
Heaven in 2 Kings and in John 3 are NOT the same place. Your view makes the cross unnecessary. If one man can go to heaven without his sins being paid for then Jesus need not have died.
thinker
Psalm 89:5-7 (Darby Translation)5And the heavens shall celebrate thy wonders, O Jehovah, and thy faithfulness in the congregation of the saints.
6For who in the heaven can be compared to Jehovah? [who] among the sons of the mighty shall be likened to Jehovah?
Why does it say “who” in the heaven? If there are no residents?
Also Why do you assume that Elijah was a sinner? I suppose you will say because the scripture says “All have sinned” but you don't include Jesus in “All” so All have not sinned, right?
Jesus said:
Matthew 9:12-14 (King James Version)
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
So who is righteous?
Malachi 3:17-18 (King James Version)
17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Wait a minute, did God just say I will spare them like a man spareth his own son that serveth Him?
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