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Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,19:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 08 2009,13:53) Hi BD,
What does scripture say?
It seems to draw distinctions between two places.
The rich man went to Hades but the poor man was carried by angels to 'Abraham's bosom' where Abraham spoke to the rich man from.
That's exactly what I have been saying. Abraham was already in the presence of God.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. . . These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son], Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. . . Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-19, 35, 39-40Abraham is dead.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:39) Hi BD,
And God now dwells in those alive in His Spirit on earth.[Eph2]
We too are seated in Christ at the right hand of God[Col2]
God is in heaven where Jesus said to pray to Him.[Mt6]
So where is Elijah?
Elijah is dead.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,18:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,12:35) Hi BD,
The rich man was in Hades.
How many of them do you know of?
Was Abraham in Hades or not?
Abraham is in the grave.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 08 2009,18:04) Hi BD,
Does scripture say that?
God is a God of the living, is their a place where the living in God lives that is separate from God?
Yahweh is the 'Elohim of the resurrection.Hi CON,
Is Samuel dead?
The witch of Endor conversed with him.
No those who are alive in the Spirit of God can sleep but are yet alive.[1Thess 4]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:42) Hi BD,
He is with Moses as both met with Jesus on the mountain.
Where are they now?Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,04:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:39) Hi BD,
And God now dwells in those alive in His Spirit on earth.[Eph2]
We too are seated in Christ at the right hand of God[Col2]
God is in heaven where Jesus said to pray to Him.[Mt6]
So where is Elijah?
Elijah is dead.
How is Elijah dead when he never died according to the scriptures and according to the scriptures he went to heaven?How was this “dead” Elijah with Jesus on the Mountain?
And why is it that Jesus says that Elijah, Abraham, Moses…etc is not dead for God is the God of the living?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28Is Jesus wrong?
Hi BD,
No you lack comprehension as you cannot receive the Spirit from Muhummad, only Jesus.
Those who have been blessed with the Spirit of God ever live by the Spirit even though they die.
So Jesus even said some who were standing with him would never die, and in that sense he was correctQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,13:07) Hi BD,
No you lack comprehension as you cannot receive the Spirit from Muhummad, only Jesus.
Those who have been blessed with the Spirit of God ever live by the Spirit even though they die.
So Jesus even said some who were standing with him would never die, and in that sense he was correct
Jesus said God sends the Spirit, was he wrong?Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 14 2009,03:13) The word was with God, was God, and was Made flesh. The glory was with God, was God, and was made flesh.
Jesus is The Glory of God
——————————————————-
There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are one.
There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, his Glory, and his Wisdom…and these three are one.
Trinitarian when you understand it from a human perspective…but understanding that The Glory is not God himself, and the wisdom is not God himself…should help you understand Jesus and The Holy Spirit's position. That these two are PART of God but do not MAKE UP GOD.
Yes Jesus pre-existed, this isn't a trinitarian view…this is a christian view…and it is established in The Bible.
Creation was made through and by Jesus' Hand which as authored and issued by The Father…They both are and should be credited with creation.
Anti-trinitarians you should esteem Jesus and The Holy Spirit as you do The Father, for they are one in in purpose and being.
Trinitarians you should not take trinitarianism as a stance that Jesus is God himself in a human identity…Jesus is God's glory. And is a part of God.
So when Jesus died on the cross, it was not God himself who died…but his glory…which the world was fashioned from.
So it is equally as important and devastating that his Glory died on The Cross for the worlds were made from this Glory.
Amen.
Hi RM + Everybody else,What I see here is a lack of understanding, RokkaMan is truly on to something.
And what I see is: people here on this post merely picking apart his faulty analogy.His analogy is similar to use a mirror to explain a person. Because a mirror is NOT a person,
this where your debating all begins. You must NOT overlook (the essence) of his scenario.
The same way when you look into a mirror you see a person;
(((You see a person in the mirror)))! This is the essence of his point,
and it is a Good analogy!He does have some critical information missing, and also some of his words are out of place, though.
But my point is NOT about anything faulty an anybody; my point is to help us all to better understand “GOD”,
WHO'S NAME ALONE is: in English “YHVH” [[[ YÄ-hä-vā ]]]! (Psalm 83:13, 148:13)I have written a free internet e-book called “HolyCityBibleCode”, documenting The very proof of God’s existence.
In Chapters 7, 8, 10, 11 and 12, I explain what I see everybody debating about.
If “ANYBODY” takes the time to read those (relatively small) chapters;
I will “then” illustrate the faultiness of “ANY” opposing view.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,17:52) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,04:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:39) Hi BD,
And God now dwells in those alive in His Spirit on earth.[Eph2]
We too are seated in Christ at the right hand of God[Col2]
God is in heaven where Jesus said to pray to Him.[Mt6]
So where is Elijah?
Elijah is dead.
How is Elijah dead when he never died according to the scriptures and according to the scriptures he went to heaven?How was this “dead” Elijah with Jesus on the Mountain?
And why is it that Jesus says that Elijah, Abraham, Moses…etc is not dead for God is the God of the living?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28Is Jesus wrong?
Here is a good source:Are Enoch, Eliyah and Moses in Heaven?
The Bible says, “Eliyah went up in whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kgs.2:11); Enoch was translated by Yahweh (Heb.11:5); and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Yahshua (Mt.17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven while Messiah was alive on Earth? No!
Jn.3:13 – “And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of Man.” These words were spoken by Yahshua himself in regards to being “born again” or resurrected from the dead (vss 3-12). These words cannot be denied or misunderstood.
We also have the Apostle Paul's witness; Col.1:18 – “that in all things he might have the preeminence.” Yahshua had to be the firstborn from the dead; the first to be resurrected unto eternal life; the first to ascend into heaven and stand before Yahweh. If anyone preceeded him then he wasn't the firstborn from the dead. Since some people believe Enoch and Eliyah did not die, but that Moses did die, then that would mean Moses had the preeminence over Messiah.
In light of these two powerful verses, Jn.3:13 and Col.1:18, how can we explain what happened to Enoch, Eliyah and Moses? Let's begin with Moses;
Duet.34:5,6 – There cannot be any doubt that Moses died and was buried. Therefore, for him to be in heaven, he had to be resurrected from the dead. According to I Cor.15:52 that will not occur until the last trumpet sounds.
What about Michael and Satan disputing about Moses' body? Jude 9 does not say Michael won the dispute and then took Moses to heaven. Since there is no mention of heaven here we should not assume he was taken there.
Mt.17:1-9 – Notice verse 9 says, “Tell the vision to no man.” a vision is not reality. The same Greek word for “vision” was used of Peter's vision of the abominations on the cloth in Acts 10:17. They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the distant future.
Mt.16:28 – This was quoted by Yahshua six days before the transfiguration. He was speaking to the disciples, but what did he mean? Surely he didn't mean they would live for almost 2,000 years until his coming at the last trumpet. Those that would not “taste of death” were Peter, James and John who saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision.
Heb.11:23-28 – These verses talk about Moses living by faith. Verses 39,40 – Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection.
What about Eliyah? We have already seen that the transfiguration was a prophetic vision which does not prove that he was in heaven.Heb.11:32 – Here we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promise. Eliyah was surely one of those prophets. But to be certain let's look at what happened to him in 2 Kgs.2:1,11 .
If Yahshua the Messiah said “no man has ascended to heaven,” then what heaven are these scriptures talking about? The Bible mentions three heavens. The first heaven is Earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Gen.1:20); The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Gen.1:16,17); The third heaven is what the Apostle Paul calls “paradise” in II Cor.12:2-4. It is where Yahweh and the heavenly sanctuary exist.
Eliyah was caught up to the first heaven where birds fly and was transported to another location on Earth. Notice vss. 15 & 16; the sons of the prophets, who knew Eliyah would be taken away (vss. 3,5), believed that Eliyah was taken to another location. They didn't think he went to the third heaven.
A similar incident to Eliyah's took place in Acts 8:39,40 – Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Eliyah was, and was transported to another location approximately 3o miles away. Eliyah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (vs. 17).
Proof that Eliyah did not die, but was transported, is found in II Chr.21:12-15 . From the wording of this letter it is clear that Eliyah wrote it after the events occurred for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as a future event.
This letter was written by Eliyah more than four years after his being taken up to the first heaven (see attached chronology). The Bible does not reveal how much longer Eliyah lived after writing the letter but it does say in Heb.9:27 that it is appointed unto men to die once.
Heb.9:27 would also include Enoch among the dead. Based on that verse and Yahshua's statement in Jn.3:13, “no man has ascended to heaven”, how are we to understand the account of Enoch?
Gen.5:21-24 – These verses do not tell us much except that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth as Eliyah was?
Consider Ps.37:35,36 and Ps.39:12,13;
“I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.”
“Hear my prayer, O Yahweh, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.”
The Hebrew for the phrases in bold is the same Hebrew as Gen.5:24; “And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him.” As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person “passed away” or would eventually die. Consider also Gen.42:13 and Gen.44:20;
“And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.” This was spoken of Joseph by his brothers. What did they mean by “is not”?
“And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.” Here the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharoah. When they first said,
“and one is not,” they meant Joseph “is dead.” Finally, consider Mt.2:18;“In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.” Where are Rachel's children? Dead.
Heb.11:5 – Does the phrase “should not see death” mean Enoch never died? Let's read the first three words of Heb 11:4,5,7,8,11 and 13 . Everyone mentioned in the previous verses died including Enoch. But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (vs. 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise? The fact is, Enoch is not in heaven but is dead in the grave awaiting his resurrection along with every other saint.
Ps.89:47,48 – Why would the Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked the question.
So what does the phrase “should not see death” mean? In Lu. 2:25-29 we see that phrase to mean that Simeon would not die a physical death or what is known as “the first death.” Without any further Bible study we would be led to believe Enoch never died and is still alive in heaven. But let's look at Jn.8:51 . Here the phrase “shall never see death” must mean “the second death” since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yahshua's sayings and yet died the first death.
Now we must decide whether the phrase “should not see death”, as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Heb.9:27 and Heb.11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Rom.5:12,14 says all men die because all have sinned. Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin or that the curse for sinning did not apply to him? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Messiah could enter heaven and dwell in Yahweh's presence?
Heb.11:5 – If Enoch did not die and was not taken to heaven then where was he translated to and what does “translation” mean? According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, “translate” means “to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer.” The same Greek word was used in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was “translated” or “carried over” to Sychem to be buried. Yahweh took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found just as he did with the body of Moses in Deut.34:6. Moses' body was never found and neither was Enoch's because Yahweh hid them for reasons known only to Him.
I Cor.15:20-23 – All die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly precede him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52. To be able to dwell in heaven we must be changed from a flesh and blood natural body to a spiritual heavenly body. That change does not take place until the last trumpet.
In conclusion, let's turn to Jn.3:13 . Are we going to believe Yahshua based on the evidence just presented or are we going to hold onto a false doctrine? The choice is yours.
Hi CON,
It was apparent that Moses and Elijah were not in heaven when they met with Jesus because they were seen on earth.Jesus was with them and was transformed and conversed with them.
Was he speaking with himself?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,17:52) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,04:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:39) Hi BD,
And God now dwells in those alive in His Spirit on earth.[Eph2]
We too are seated in Christ at the right hand of God[Col2]
God is in heaven where Jesus said to pray to Him.[Mt6]
So where is Elijah?
Elijah is dead.
How is Elijah dead when he never died according to the scriptures and according to the scriptures he went to heaven?How was this “dead” Elijah with Jesus on the Mountain?
And why is it that Jesus says that Elijah, Abraham, Moses…etc is not dead for God is the God of the living?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28Is Jesus wrong?
On Matt 22:23-32, Mark 12:19-27, and Luke 20:27-38.Jesus is asked by the Sadducees (who did not believe in a resurrection) a hypothetical case of a woman who has seven consecutive brothers as husbands:
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Mark 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mark 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
Mark 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mark 12:22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mark 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.Note that both the question of the Sadducees, and the answer Jesus gives, deal with after the resurrection?
If as Catholicism (and much of Christianity) teaches, people went immediately to heaven after death, then the focus of the conversation would have been on the recent dead, not those who are resurrected from death at some point in the future.
Note that Jesus rebukes the Sadducees for not knowing the teaching of scripture, or the power of God with respect to raising the dead.
Jesus is affirming to the Sadducees that there will indeed be a resurrection from death, that there is victory over the grave!
Verse 26, however, does not prove that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive in heaven, but rather, because of their faith, they will indeed be resurrected and then be rewarded with eternal life, something the Sadducees rejected (v. 18).
Note that Jesus begins verse 26 with – and as touching the dead, that they rise – Jesus then goes on to present Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as prime examples of those who will be raised from the dead, despite the false beliefs of the Sadducees.
The Sadducees rejected the resurrection from the dead, and Jesus in verse 27 is saying that God will not be the God of the dead and buried, but the God of the living, the resurrected, as he makes clear at the beginning of verse 26.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,16:39) Hi CON,
It was apparent that Moses and Elijah were not in heaven when they met with Jesus because they were seen on earth.Jesus was with them and was transformed and conversed with them.
Was he speaking with himself?
It was a vision.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,17:52) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,04:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 08 2009,09:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,04:39) Hi BD,
And God now dwells in those alive in His Spirit on earth.[Eph2]
We too are seated in Christ at the right hand of God[Col2]
God is in heaven where Jesus said to pray to Him.[Mt6]
So where is Elijah?
Elijah is dead.
How is Elijah dead when he never died according to the scriptures and according to the scriptures he went to heaven?How was this “dead” Elijah with Jesus on the Mountain?
And why is it that Jesus says that Elijah, Abraham, Moses…etc is not dead for God is the God of the living?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28Is Jesus wrong?
In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we have an account of a discussion Jesus had with a group of Sadducees, who scripture explains, did not believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matt 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27).They pose a question to Jesus about a widow who marries 7 brothers in sequence as each dies.
The Sadducees presume that they have posed an impossible question to Jesus, because they assume that after any alleged resurrection, the woman would be guilty of bigamy by having seven husbands.
Jesus answers as follows (emphasis is mine):
Mat 22:28 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Mark 12:23 (KJV) In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.Luke 20:34 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.Note that the topic at hand deals with the Sadducees denial of a resurrection (the power of God to raise the dead) and their lack of knowledge of scripture on the matter.
In each of the above passages, to prove the resurrection, God is quoted when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:6) and said “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” and then the comment is made that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Some Catholics will point to the phrase “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” as proof that people never really die, but rather their “soul” continues to live on after death.
However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected.
The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible.
Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.
1 Cor 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.The dead are in the grave, corrupt, decayed, dust, awaiting their resurrection at the last trumpet.
At their resurrection they will put on incorruption, immortality, but until then they rest in the grave.
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