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Hi WJ,
I struggle to find the word ONTOLOGICAL in scripture so perhaps it is a weak theology tool.You would separate the Spirit of God from God as another person but cannot separate your own from you?
You make the Son of God into part of God Himself but ignore his claims to be a Son of that God ?
Wake up.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 28 2009,05:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2009,13:33) Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 13 2009,11:02) Today a remarkable phenomenon has hit my understanding, which came through divine revelation. I asked God to show me and he did in a remarkable way.
Is Jesus God?
The answer is no, he is a reflection of God. Yet as the Sun shines in the sky, we experience it's rays.
So as if God is The Sun, Jesus is his Rays. (Please this is not a literal interpretation, it is a parable.)
And since Jesus is his rays, Jesus too can be worshipped in the same glory as The Father. For Jesus IS the glory of The Father like the Sun's Rays is the Glory of The Sun.
So is the trinity true? It would be foolish for man to understand God's being. God is beyond a trinity. He is everything…the only thing he is not, is sin….Because sin by definition is the opposite of God. But without God, sin could not exist…for it is his opposite.
The Holy Spirit is God's wisdom and intellect…it is a part of him. So when you worship through The Father, Son and Spirit…what you are praising in…is God, his glory, and his wisdom.
Jesus is God's literal Son, and has been made to be our our kin. So we are now related to God The Father because we share a common relation….Jesus. He is God to all things, but not the supreme God himself…Although he is a part of that supremecy, he is not entirely supreme himself…Only The Father is.
Amen.
Rokkaman,
So God showed you something in a “remarkable way?” Can you share with us how He showed you and exactly what He showed you?Much appreciated,
Kathi
Absolutely, do you ever go through school not understanding a certain concept, then one day your teach explains it a little different and then the light bulb clicks on?That was my remarkable way.
After the light bulb clicked on, I immediately felt that peace in the center of my gut, that I felt when I first got saved…I pulled out a bible and began reading a bunch of the “Jesus Identity” scriptures to see if they would read in a different light.
Every single piece of scripture made perfect sense.
I mean trinitarianism made perfect sense when I believed it, but kinda felt wrong in the sense that it painted God out to be 3 beings. If he was one being then trinitarianism wouldn't need to exist…we would simply just say…God came down as a man and now lives on in everyone of us. There would be no need for a trinity doctrine if the doctrine was true in itself (no it's not a paradox, it's a flat out contradiction.)
And for God to be sitting with himself at his own right hand, would be pure polytheism…If he is one being it's ok to seperate himself on earth, but in heaven it would not be necissary.
Also Jesus' subjegation to The Father also reveals an inequality…if they were equal they would have equal titles…One wouldn't be a son or father…
If Jesus willed himself to be less than The Father…then The Father would not be God…God can do all things except one…and that is make a being equal to himself…because if he could, then he would not be God…and that being could/would have the will and ability to battle God without God's control. It's not proof of God's weakness in nto being able to do so…it's proof of God's greatness…He's so great he can't create something equal.
And there's many more things I can point out, if you're curious, ask and I will answer.
I love this post because it is already written in the Quran(14) If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #22)(11) Say: If there had been (other) gods with Him, as they say,- behold, they would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #42)Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 28 2009,05:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,05:45) Thanks Rokkaman,
Interesting how I had a similar “lightbulb” moment. So, what was it that you read or someone taught you that brought that “light bulb moment?”We now have very similar understandings and that is remarkable. The only difference that I see is that you think Jesus was created and I say He was begotten-not created.
God bless,
Kathi
No I too believe he was begotten…better put…I believe he came forth. I believe God opened his mouth to speak, and out came the spirit of Jesus…in it the spirit of creation.
That post is brilliant!1) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 28 2009,07:59) Hi BD,
Adaptation of what is sacred to make teachings seem valid is deception but you were fooled?
Truth stands out from error.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2009,06:50) Hi RokkaMan Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 27 2009,13:20) If Jesus willed himself to be less than The Father…then The Father would not be God…
And there lies the fallacy of your theory.Jesus did will himself to be less than the Father
“Who, being in very nature God“, did not consider equality (he was equal) with God something to be grasped (held on to), “BUT MADE HIMSELF NOTHING“, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8
The very fact that Jesus made himself “nothing” and took on the likeness of sinful flesh is proof of his Deity!
Couple that together with 1 Cor 15 where Jesus IS NOT at this time “subject” to the Father and the fact that the Holy Spirit is subject to him and bingo, you have Jesus as God as the Apostles and the Father himself claim him to be!
When he has done this, “THEN THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, “SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL”. 1 Cor 15:28
At this time Jesus is “all in all”! Not to mention that by him and through him all things were created and without him was not “anything” made that was made! John 1:1-3
“What God was the Word was”, is the litteral translation of John 1:1c.
Then ask yourself how any being can be all that the Father is by having all things and all authority and power and in fact like the Father is “all in all”, and yet not be “God”?
The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are “One”, not only in will and purpose, but also “ontologically” they are of the same essence, (Heb 1:3)!
God and his nature is far beyond our human understanding, this is why men and women who have tried to look at him after “our likeness” cannot see the “plurality of oneness” that God is!
In so doing they have reduced Jesus who is the “image of the invisible God” or “God who has made himself visible” into something less than God, therefore in my opinion have created a “false image of God himself”! He has revealed to us who he is by Jesus and men have rejected him as God and made him into the image of a mere man who simply has his Spirit!
Jesus is that “Rock” (YHWH) that followed them in the wilderness, and he is the Great God and Saviour of the New Testament in whom we look to appear! Tit 2:13
For more on Jesus being YHWH in the OT click here and here.
Blessings WJ
Amen Keith!
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 28 2009,07:42) Hi WJ,
I struggle to find the word ONTOLOGICAL in scripture so perhaps it is a weak theology tool.You would separate the Spirit of God from God as another person but cannot separate your own from you?
You make the Son of God into part of God Himself but ignore his claims to be a Son of that God ?
Wake up.
Yakety yak.The word “being” and “nature” is in scripture. The word “ontology” has to do with being and nature.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,09:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2009,06:50) Hi RokkaMan Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 27 2009,13:20) If Jesus willed himself to be less than The Father…then The Father would not be God…
And there lies the fallacy of your theory.Jesus did will himself to be less than the Father
“Who, being in very nature God“, did not consider equality (he was equal) with God something to be grasped (held on to), “BUT MADE HIMSELF NOTHING“, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8
The very fact that Jesus made himself “nothing” and took on the likeness of sinful flesh is proof of his Deity!
Couple that together with 1 Cor 15 where Jesus IS NOT at this time “subject” to the Father and the fact that the Holy Spirit is subject to him and bingo, you have Jesus as God as the Apostles and the Father himself claim him to be!
When he has done this, “THEN THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, “SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL”. 1 Cor 15:28
At this time Jesus is “all in all”! Not to mention that by him and through him all things were created and without him was not “anything” made that was made! John 1:1-3
“What God was the Word was”, is the litteral translation of John 1:1c.
Then ask yourself how any being can be all that the Father is by having all things and all authority and power and in fact like the Father is “all in all”, and yet not be “God”?
The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are “One”, not only in will and purpose, but also “ontologically” they are of the same essence, (Heb 1:3)!
God and his nature is far beyond our human understanding, this is why men and women who have tried to look at him after “our likeness” cannot see the “plurality of oneness” that God is!
In so doing they have reduced Jesus who is the “image of the invisible God” or “God who has made himself visible” into something less than God, therefore in my opinion have created a “false image of God himself”! He has revealed to us who he is by Jesus and men have rejected him as God and made him into the image of a mere man who simply has his Spirit!
Jesus is that “Rock” (YHWH) that followed them in the wilderness, and he is the Great God and Saviour of the New Testament in whom we look to appear! Tit 2:13
For more on Jesus being YHWH in the OT click here and here.
Blessings WJ
Amen Keith! thinker
“Who, being in very nature God”, did not consider equality (he was equal) with God something to be grasped (held on to), “BUT MADE HIMSELF NOTHING”, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a crossI do not deny Jesus' deity to be something in the light of YHWH…You can't say he's equal to the father, yet cannot say he's not equal to the father…because it's an idea that is meant to be grasped….
Compared to us, it's as if he is as powerful as the father seeing as how the fullness of the deity dwells within him…Yet we cannot truly grasp that Idea because The Father made it so.
So what that verse states…is that
Even tho Jesus, being in the reflection of his father, possesses abilities on such a large scale to where it would make him a God unto all things….he made himself out to be nothing and humbled himself as of a serveant.
If you read the chapter from beginning to end, it was written to the clergymen…instructing them that, even tho you are holy men in the church, do not be prideful in it and humble yourself, as Jesus did even though his deity was above creation.
That does NOT mean he is YHWH.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,09:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 28 2009,07:42) Hi WJ,
I struggle to find the word ONTOLOGICAL in scripture so perhaps it is a weak theology tool.You would separate the Spirit of God from God as another person but cannot separate your own from you?
You make the Son of God into part of God Himself but ignore his claims to be a Son of that God ?
Wake up.
Yakety yak.The word “being” and “nature” is in scripture. The word “ontology” has to do with being and nature.
thinker
Hi TT,
If you need weak human theology to support your arguments then you are on shaky ground.Scripture explains itself and backs itself up and you should not add what is of man to scriptural truth.
There is no trinity in scripture but men strangely offer this catholic dogma as their foundation. Why?
Plus WJ and TT I strongly defended that very verse to prove the trinity.
Who, being in very nature God”, did not consider equality (he was equal) with God something to be grasped (held on to), “BUT MADE HIMSELF NOTHING”, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8
But if you read the verse…it is stating the very Opposite of what you are trying to do?
It says, Jesus thought it to be a concept not to be grasped…yet you try to grasp it and say it suggests that he is equal?
When you can't understand such a concept because if Jesus is the reflected image of the invisible God and the fullness of God dwells within him, we know Jesus has all the abilities of God. Or at least will inheret. Yet we also know Jesus only does what he sees the Father doing, and everything was “given” to him…it didn't already originate with him. We also know when all is complete…The Son will put everything under The Father so that God may be all in all. But it also said that everything is under christ except YHWH.
So if everything but YHWH is under christ, then why would YHWH need to actively put it under him if Christ is God? Everything would already be under God…
Christ is not YHWH but christ certainly is God…he's not God before YHWH but compared to creation and what he can do he is a God (title) above all things.
And their equality…isn't something to be understood…especially when Christ CAME from The Father…that means you can't say he is equal when he takes instruction and is given everything (and didn't originate) yet you cannot see he is not equal when he has all the same capabilities. And you also can't say they are a trinity because I'm sure The father could exist without the son (although we'd be living in a very different world) but the son could not exist without the father. Also you cannot conform a being in whom you do not understrand and is beyond your existence into a 3 dimensional triangle.
Rokka Man! I have been reading all of your post, and they are good. What comes to my mind, when W.J. and thethinker want to make a trinity out of all. This is that Scripture
1 Corinth. 11:3 the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.Some times we give those that believe in the trinity, a verse that could go their way of understanding. We have to give them other Scriptures that have no doubt that there is no trinity.
What else I found is, that we can't make them understand. God has to open their eyes, otherwise we can talk to them until we're blue in the face. I tried that with our Son who belongs to the Baptist Church.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Oct. 27 2009,18:25) Rokka Man! I have been reading all of your post, and they are good. What comes to my mind, when W.J. and thethinker want to make a trinity out of all. This is that Scripture
1 Corinth. 11:3 the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.Some times we give those that believe in the trinity, a verse that could go their way of understanding. We have to give them other Scriptures that have no doubt that there is no trinity.
What else I found is, that we can't make them understand. God has to open their eyes, otherwise we can talk to them until we're blue in the face. I tried that with our Son who belongs to the Baptist Church.
Peace and Love Irene
HiYea right! To say that scritpure disproves the Trinity is a joke.
Tell me, is the woman less human than a man?
That scripture has nothing to do with the nature of things but simply the order of things!
Try again!
WJ
Hi WJ,
So your fallback is greek logic when you find no scriptural foundation for your catholic teachings?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2009,10:33) Quote (georg @ Oct. 27 2009,18:25) Rokka Man! I have been reading all of your post, and they are good. What comes to my mind, when W.J. and thethinker want to make a trinity out of all. This is that Scripture
1 Corinth. 11:3 the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.Some times we give those that believe in the trinity, a verse that could go their way of understanding. We have to give them other Scriptures that have no doubt that there is no trinity.
What else I found is, that we can't make them understand. God has to open their eyes, otherwise we can talk to them until we're blue in the face. I tried that with our Son who belongs to the Baptist Church.
Peace and Love Irene
HiYea right! To say that scritpure disproves the Trinity is a joke.
Tell me, is the woman less human than a man?
That scripture has nothing to do with the nature of things but simply the order of things!
Try again!
WJ
Yes but the order here is God is the head of ChristWhat's so important about that statement is that it is clearly stating that Christ is not God.
If it said The Father is the head of the son you could argue that they are both part of being God but this statement would allow according to your belief for Christ i.e. Son to be the head of Christ or himself.
God here is used as a term separate from Christ so in this order we see clearly One “being” over anouther “being”
The “being” God is Higher in authority than the “being” Christ so in having two beings presented in order we can know that the being Christ is not in the being of God otherwise order would not be necessary.
Irene said:
Quote What comes to my mind, when W.J. and thethinker want to make a trinity out of all. This is that Scripture
1 Corinth. 11:3 the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Irene,
How come you don't quote all of what Paul said? He did not mean that the woman was less than the man or that Christ was less than God. Here is the WHOLE statement Irene:”
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (New King James Version):3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
There it is Irene! Paul said that the man is nothing without the woman and the woman is nothing without the man. The headship thing was old covenant anyway. Are women still required to wear head coverings today? Of course not. It was Moses who required that just as he required the sabbath. Yet you say that the sabbath is not for us today.
The headship thing was old testament and no longer applies in reference to women before men and Christ before God. The exaltation of Christ is CLEARLY taught in scripture and according to Paul Christ will not be subject UNTIL He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Paul said that Christ “WILL BE” subject. This makes no sense if He is subject now. None of you anti-trinitarians have cared to comment on this. You all just ignore it like Paul never said it.
You had it right the first time. You once believed and should have continued with it.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,19:57) Irene said: Quote What comes to my mind, when W.J. and thethinker want to make a trinity out of all. This is that Scripture
1 Corinth. 11:3 the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Irene,
How come you don't quote all of what Paul said? He did not mean that the woman was less than the man or that Christ was less than God. Here is the WHOLE statement Irene:”
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (New King James Version):3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
There it is Irene! Paul said that the man is nothing without the woman and the woman is nothing without the man. The headship thing was old covenant anyway. Are women still required to wear head coverings today? Of course not. It was Moses who required that just as he required the sabbath. Yet you say that the sabbath is not for us today.
The headship thing was old testament and no longer applies in reference to women before men and Christ before God. The exaltation of Christ is CLEARLY taught in scripture and according to Paul Christ will not be subject UNTIL He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Paul said that Christ “WILL BE” subject. This makes no sense if He is subject now. None of you anti-trinitarians have cared to comment on this. You all just ignore it like Paul never said it.
You had it right the first time. You once believed and should have continued with it.
thinker
You know it still is that the head of man is God. You can't get away from that. No matter what else it says.
And as far as the covering go's, well when we first came from Germany, the woman that I worked for, as a live-in-Maid, when we went to the Catholic Church, she aways wore something on Her head, ad made me wear something too. It is in later days that the Church did away with that. But that is not the only Scripture that I gave concerning the trinity. And there is more Scriptures too. Like
1Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all,and in us all.
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.”Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel:” The LORD our God he is one LORD.”
notice that LORD is in capital letters, that is always the Father.
Peace and Love IreneHow about this,
Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 30 2009,12:09) How about this, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
RRemember you are speaking after Jesus incarnation.
Remember Phil 2, he made himself nothing.
He was in very nature God, so he already had every thing, but he left it all!
Now the Father had given all things back to him including the Glory he shared before the world was. John 17:5
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes “he became poor“, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cor 8:9
When was Jesus rich?
John 1:1, Phil 2:6.
When did he become poor?
John 1:14, 18 and Phil 2:6-8
The Father is greater than Jesus because “Jesus chose” the role of being the servant and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh! John 1:1, 14
You need to reconsider, read the following link on John 1:1 and about Jesus being YHWH…Click here and Here
WJ
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