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Hi guys,
I thought that it would be interesting and useful to start up this discussion. It is about scriptures that can be interpreted in more than one way. The idea is to quote a scripture and show possible different meanings. This may help us understand or even fit scriptures together where a conflict may seem to occur.
E.g. Luke 23:42-43
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”The above scripture can mean that Jesus said to the thief that he would be in Paradise that day, or that he will be in Paradise with reference to the promise being made that day. I tend to think that it was the first option myself, but such possibilities are worth considering and even may change our theology.
Another example follows:
Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.Most or the vast majority of explanations I have heard regarding the the Spirit decending on Christ is that it took the shape of a dove. You see this especially in movies depicting this event. But it can also mean that the Spirit decended like a dove with the word 'decended' being the focus. So that the Spirit gracefully came down on Christ in the same way that a dove descends.
If this is the case, then how did the witnesses know that the Spirit descended at all if it didn't have a shape (like a dove)? The next verse could be the clue.
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”It could be that the Spirit took the shape of a body (human) and decended onto Christ but came down in a manner similar to a dove descending in flight.
I tend to take this view myself and I remind all who read this that I am not trying to start a pointless argument about this, but I offer my view only. I think that as believers we can differ on opinions with such things and remain in unity.
I take the 2nd view because I find it difficult to believe that the Spirit took on the shape of an animal. It seems that a bodily shape seems more likely given that the Spirit descended onto Christ who has a body. So to me a bodily shape just seems more apparent.
Now this may not actually mean anything in the end, but I thought that if others contributed scriptures that on the outset have 2 or more possible meanings, then we may be able to understand possible conflicts with scripture if we are offered another viable view that may compliment rather than contradict.
Hi T8.
Of course “in bodily form like a dove” can still mean like the body of a dove. Clearly the descending flight of a dove is important coming down, as it were from heaven.
It shows the importance of scriptural witnesses and the event is described 4 times, one in each gospel. Two say {NASB}
“descending as a dove”
John adds “out of heaven”
And Mark says “like a dove”
while Luke says” in bodily form like a dove”Spirit does not have a visible form. Clearly there was a bodily form visible and yet the watchers knew it was the Holy Spirit.[How?]
And the dove ,of course, is a symbol of gentleness and peace.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2005,13:50) in bodily form like a dove” can still mean like the body of a dove
Of course it can mean that too and that is the excepted view today. This is the point of this discussion. Scriptures that can mean something else. In other words showing an equal rendition of the text that is not the traditional view.I am not sure that the symbol of a dove had that meaning back in those days. It was a dove that Noah sent out of the ark I think. Perhaps the dove as an international symbol of peace came from that. Not sure though. I do know that the peace that Christ gives us is not the same as the worldly one.
Anyway, if the Holy Spirit took on the bodily form of a dove, then it seems to be the first and only time that God used an animal of some kind to depict his Spirit. (Are there others?) That doesn't seem like the pattern that we see in scripture and the reason that I think it was bodily in form as the Spirit remained upon him. So if it were a dove, then did it sit on his shoulder? I think that the Spirit lighted his own body up and was in him and around him. Like a glow around his own body when it remained upon him as opposed to a dove shape sitting on him.
I personally do not see any scripture denying that view. So all I am saying is that we should at least be open as opposed to believing the traditional view just because that is the view that is popular and the one that has been handed down.
Hi t8,
In reply to your question God did once speak through a donkey and Jesus once said “these stones would cry out”.But did the Holy Spirit take on the form of a donkey? No. God spoke through that animal to the prophet.
I think the difference is that God can speak through anyone or anything. But the scripture in question is read by many to say that the Spirit came down in the form of a dove. A dove is an animal. So did the Spirit take on a form of a created animal and then land upon Christ? I can't think of anywhere else that the Spirit of God took on the form of an animal/bird. That just seems like something that God wouldn't do and why I have the other view which I see also as an equal rendition of the text. I choose that view because of context and pattern that is displayed in scripture regarding the Spirit of God.
In the end though it is rather a useless exercise to argue about it, as I previously mentioned. I just shared something that I believe. That is all. It's not as if we all have to believe your or my point of view on these matters. Just sharing that is all.
Romans 8:26 (and/or the scripture where Elijah sat in a certain posture waiting for the rain clouds). Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession *for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.The traditional explanation I have heard and observed at times in prayer meetings are people that prayed in a certain loud and disruptive way to either emulate or indicate that the holy spirit is groaning through their prayers. I am not talking about crying out aloud to the Lord but just a carrying on is more like it.I believe that all that is to be said regarding groanings is explained in vs 22-23. The Spirit groans as we groan, as the creation itself groans — on a daily basis. Often times, we groan without a sound, and that whether or not we want to. During bad storms, I hear the trees groan as they sway and creak. It is an involuntary action and it is usually characterized by pain, heartbreak and suffering. When I exercise, I sometimes groan and I can't do push ups to save my life. There are definitely groanings.
When the wicked have their way, we groan and I believe the spirit groans too. It is not necessarily something that is confined to times of prayer per se. When calamity happens, e.g. 2004 Tsunami, personal woes, we groan. When Tornadoes, flood, eathquakes etc hit, the animals and vegetation groan. Thus, we don't need to “groan” when we pray as an indication of the Spirit's groan through us because all groan anyway.And that goes for contorting and doing certain things as I have seen done to indicate “travail.”
The bible also says we wrestle etc, but I am yet to see that one carried out in a prayer meeting where someone is on the floor literally wrestling (Olympic Style or any other style) unseen demons! And yet, we do wrestle in prayer if we've ever prayed fervently to God, especially earnestly, faithfully and persistently. So that's my understanding of Romans 8:26. Thus I pray the Lord keeps us in perfect peace and ease whatever may be causing us and those around us to groan at this time. And well, the Spirit is going on about its/his business unseen.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2005,16:49) Hi cubes,
Are you blessed with the gift of tongues?
No, I don't yet speak in tongues, Nick, though I don't doubt that others do.Of course t8,
We are not just given the Word but the Spirit as well and it impossible to do without either.Hi t8
To me the Holy Spirit descending like a Dove on the Lamb is symbolic of the complementary natures of the two creatures, one a heavenly being the other an earthly, yet both meek and gentle.
Paradise, being on a place on earth, it would be impossible to enter into paradise on the day of the crucifixion.
Today, I say unto you……
Or in our language, I say this now…..
Lk 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’”
Lk 23:43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”when we will be resurrected ,it will be like the following day as if we would have been woken up for a new day ,and good morning ,
Yes, indeed.
Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom.
That event is in the future, as in the book of Revelation, not in the gospels.
It is certainly described in the gospels, but does not take place until the future events given in the book of Revelation
A few years ago, I was on my way into theatre for an operation. I remember them asking me to answer some simple questions. All I remember is that I was so nervous, as it was my first operation ever. The next thing I knew, a nurse said to me, “during the operation we had to do this and that” etc. I said, “no way, I havn’t even gone in for the operation yet as I’m just about to go in, …. you got me mixed up with someone else”. The nurse laughed. “The operation finished a while ago, you are now in recovery”
That’s how I picture death. Waking up and remembering our last thoughts thinking it is still that same day, same minute even.
“Today you will be with me in paradise”. When that thief is woken up again, it will seem like that “same day”, which will be “Today” for him, and Christ’s words to him would be true, even though over 2000 years have passed.
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