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23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”
So was Moses seeing the back of the Father?
Jehovah is the Source of even the stars, our sun being just a medium-sized star. Would you think of trying to have a close physical encounter with the sun?
Here's some scriptures that might relate:
“This [Moses] is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai.” (Ac 7:38)
ACTS 7:53
“YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.””GALATIANS 3:19
“Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”HEBREWS 2:2
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice;”JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”Quote Jehovah is the Source of even the stars, our sun being just a medium-sized star. Would you think of trying to have a close physical encounter with the sun? Hi David,
I don't think that analogy applies. The scripture I posted says Moses saw the back of God. I'm just wondering if it's the Father.
Hi,
Jesus told us no man has seen God. God is invisible spirit and we only have weak human eyes. God is often manifested in different ways, such as visions, among men but has never left heaven which is His throne. Earth is a tiny aspect of His creation and men are as dust on it so we must not let our minds think we can see Almighty God.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. AmenMoses saw the glory of God through an angel/messenger.
No one can see God. God is invisible. He is Spirit.Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Acts 7:35
“This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 09 2006,03:25) I believe it was the pre-incarnate Christ.
Hi ST,
Why would you believe that?
Do you mind me asking if you have any scriptural evidence?God loves His Son and it cost Him dearly to send him and God devotes much of scripture to the arrival of the awesome Son, the closest being to God, on a rescue mission for mankind, that I find it hard to grasp that he could have popped in for a preview a few times before. It just seems incongruous with the whole picture to me.
Exodus 14:19 The angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them
1 Corinthians 10:4 for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
I believe Jesus has always worked with the Father in relating to man.
I know you believe the Christ pre-existed his being born to Mary and that he emptied himself having been something more than a man prior. So why would it be so hard to believe?
also what about this verse. It says Yahew was walking in the garden.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 09 2006,04:50) Exodus 14:19 The angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them 1 Corinthians 10:4 for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
I know you believe the Christ pre-existed his being born to Mary and that he emptied himself having been something more than a man prior. So why would it be so hard to believe?
Hi ST,Do you then believe Jesus is an angel?
Where is that evidence?
Is every appearance of the Angel of the Lord actually Jesus?
Does scripture state this?1 Corinthians 10:4 for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
If you compare this verse with 1 Peter 1
“9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
Does it not suggest it is rather the prophetic Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, that was with the Israelites?
All of creation came through the Son of God but I believe it is moving beyond revelation to say Jesus walked the earth before his birth. That is the sort of thinking that begat the trinity doctrine is it not? How can we follow him if he had the huge advantage of getting a preview of our human lives at first hand?
Before I answer your question sscott I need to be clear on this; I do not embrace the traditional teaching of a trinity. The Son is subject to YHWH, who is the One without beginning or end, and while Jesus was not created He did have a beginning. Jesus is less then the Father but when we've seen Jesus we've seen the Father (at least all we can see of God) and the Father is His God. However while I do see the usage of “God” in the OT as a title which refers to the Almighty Father, I also believe it is a title to a “position” which includes his begotten Son. I've posted my reasons on other treads before but for your benefit;
I believe that God is greater then our reality alone or even the combination of ours and the spiritual (something that we cannot currently even comprehend). When God made our reality, Jesus was begotten as a “new manifestation” a separate being from the Father, but of the Father (not created, but as a result of having a new reality God's very nature became the pre-incarnate Christ), he was then the method of creation. I believe that Jesus is “fully God” in that he contains as much of the Father as beings in our reality can comprehend (but He is always subject to the Father). I know it sounds “new age-ish” or just plain weird but I believe this was a revelation that God gave me and that it is supported by scripture. However I cannot be dogmatic about it and welcome correction of any and all errors (from scripture).
I am not “teaching” this belief (at least not yet) I'm only explaining it so you and Nick will understand why I say what I said.
So with that said sscott (if you haven't wrote me off as hopeless), I believe it was the pre-incarnate Christ who walked in the garden.
Quote All of creation came through the Son of God but I believe it is moving beyond revelation to say Jesus walked the earth before his birth. That is the sort of thinking that begat the trinity doctrine is it not? How can we follow him if he had the huge advantage of getting a preview of our human lives at first hand? I do not believe that He retained any memories, but made His own choices just as we do, but He chose to do only what He saw the Father doing through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Nick,
I don't blame you for questioning my posts, I question them and I wrote them. But until I'm shown, from scripture, how they are wrong I have no choice since as I stated earlier I believe God gave me this revelation. I was reluctant to bring it up (knowing I would get blasted) but felt I should, so either confirm or correct. As I've always said I'm open to correction. I want truth it's more important than my opinions, but to find truth I need to be able to set aside previous concepts (and I'm struggling with this one).Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 09 2006,06:07) Quote All of creation came through the Son of God but I believe it is moving beyond revelation to say Jesus walked the earth before his birth. That is the sort of thinking that begat the trinity doctrine is it not? How can we follow him if he had the huge advantage of getting a preview of our human lives at first hand? I do not believe that He retained any memories, but made His own choices just as we do, but He chose to do only what He saw the Father doing through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Hi ST,
I think Yahshua did seem very aware of His previous existence:John 8:23
And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.John 8:56-58
56″Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”John 17:14
“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.John 17:16
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.And did appear to remember specifics:
John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Your thoughts?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov.,06:00) Before I answer your question sscott I need to be clear on this; I do not embrace the traditional teaching of a trinity. The Son is subject to YHWH, who is the One without beginning or end, and while Jesus was not created He did have a beginning. Jesus is less then the Father but when we've seen Jesus we've seen the Father (at least all we can see of God) and the Father is His God. However while I do see the usage of “God” in the OT as a title which refers to the Almighty Father, I also believe it is a title to a “position” which includes his begotten Son. I've posted my reasons on other treads before but for your benefit; I believe that God is greater then our reality alone or even the combination of ours and the spiritual (something that we cannot currently even comprehend). When God made our reality, Jesus was begotten as a “new manifestation” a separate being from the Father, but of the Father (not created, but as a result of having a new reality God's very nature became the pre-incarnate Christ), he was then the method of creation. I believe that Jesus is “fully God” in that he contains as much of the Father as beings in our reality can comprehend (but He is always subject to the Father). I know it sounds “new age-ish” or just plain weird but I believe this was a revelation that God gave me and that it is supported by scripture. However I cannot be dogmatic about it and welcome correction of any and all errors (from scripture).
I am not “teaching” this belief (at least not yet) I'm only explaining it so you and Nick will understand why I say what I said.
So with that said sscott (if you haven't wrote me off as hopeless), I believe it was the pre-incarnate Christ who walked in the garden.
Hi Seekingtruth
I can relate to what your saying, maybe it's because it's the way you put it, anyway what I want to ask you is, when you say the pr-incarnate Christ, are you saying that Jesus the man pre-existed or Christ? I ask you this because my understanding of Christ is the Mind of God, and Jesus became Christ when He was baptized.
I also want correction if my understanding is wrong.Hi ST,
We either stand on scripture or we choose not to but my preference is to build on established truth. That is the safe path as it is too easy to wander far from the path without even realising we are astray. I have been too far from that path in the past to ever want to put myself at such risk again.Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 10 2006,01:33) Nick,
I don't blame you for questioning my posts, I question them and I wrote them. But until I'm shown, from scripture, how they are wrong I have no choice since as I stated earlier I believe God gave me this revelation. I was reluctant to bring it up (knowing I would get blasted) but felt I should, so either confirm or correct. As I've always said I'm open to correction. I want truth it's more important than my opinions, but to find truth I need to be able to set aside previous concepts (and I'm struggling with this one).
And fair enough to seekingtruth. You are allowed opinions and you are open to learn so please do not feel guilty for that. I also believe as you do, but as Nick points out, there are no scriptures that specifically state that it is Christ pre-incarnate. However there are no scriptures that say it was Michael, or Gabriel, or another identified angel either.We also know that the word 'angel' can also be used as 'messenger' and in at least one instance that word is used of Christ and John the Baptist.
It seems in the OT that there was an angel/messenger who is very special. He has God's name in him, he speaks on behalf of God and servants treat his visitation as if they saw God himself. Among visitations by groups of angels there seems to be one that stands out.
I personally think it is Christ too, but I do not teach it as a fact unless there is scripture to specifically state that it is. But as I said this angel/messenger is not identified and his characteristics are similar to Christ in many ways.
Certainly no one here should get upset about opinions. We are allowed them. To say that this messenger isn't Christ (pre-incarnate) is also an opinion.
So it seems that no matter which side of the fence we sit on with this one, it is no more than an opinion.
My first guess is that it is Christ and my second guess is that it is his (or God's) angel. See Revelation 1:1.
Of course I am open to correction too. In fact we should learn to love correction. It is one way that we progress and allow the perfect work of Christ to perfect us.
Thank you T8,
I agree the scriptures I've studied so far do not prove it, but they haven't disproved it either (and I don't believe He was Michael or any named angel).Debra – Your right in pointing out Christ is not a proper term for Him preincarnate as that was a position he achieved while here, I only use it as a term of reference.
Is 1:18 – I agree He was aware, but I'm sure as He grew up hearing all that was said about Him from His mother, as He sought God for what this meant, I believe God gave Him (the man), revelations of who he was (we know He studied scriptures and by 12 was teaching them). I believe He was just like us (human) except without sin.
Nick – What can I say, I agree with what you say but I believe this is building on truth. I received this revelation while I still believed in the trinity and knew of no reason not to. I questioned it deeply as it collided with everything I believed. But as I searched out scriptures I found it brought harmony.
As I said I am not trying to promote this I only offer it as “my opinion”.
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