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Moses.
In no one, however, does the most elaborate ritualism of the Atonement sacrifice appear so closely intertwined with the profoundest spiritual conception of God's atoning powers as in Moses the lawgiver himself. When the worship of the Golden Calf had provoked God's wrath to such a degree that He said to Moses, “Let me alone. . . . that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation” (Ex. xxxii. 10), the latter, desirous of making an Atonement for their transgression, asked the Lord to forgive the people's sin, or else to blot Moses' own name out of His book (the book of life); and he persisted in imploring God's pardon even after He had said, “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book,” until finally, in answer to Moses' entreaty, the full glory of God, His compassionate mercy, His long-suffering and forgiving love, were revealed and Moses' prayer for the people's pardon was granted (Ex. xxxiv. 1-9;Num. xiv. 17-20). There Moses' own self-abnegating love, which willingly offered up his life for his people, disclosed the very qualities of God as far as they touch both the mystery of sin and the divine forgiveness, and this became the key to the comprehension of the Biblical idea of Atonement. The existence of sin would be incompatible with a good and holy God, but for His long-suffering, which waits for the sinner's return, and His condoning love, which turns man's failings into endeavors toward a better life. Each atoning sacrifice, therefore, must be understood both as an appeal to God's forgiving mercy, and as a monition to the sinner to repentance. “Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isa. lv. 7).
Read more: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.js….ARTCG3k
Agreed
Problem is, That the kept on sinning, and kept on being the children of desobidence,
They kept on complaining, which is why that generation never made it to the promise land.So either way Gods judgement was given out.
Moses prayer wasnt enough to change their hearts.
God calls for a perfect heart as well.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for everThese people sought him not,
Very few sought God,Thats why he sent his Son to blot out all transgressions once and for all.
Not a repetitive prayer of salvation,
but a lifestyle of eternal life,
having a relationship with the living God, as Moses did.Not like the children of disobdience, who looked at God from afar, and sought him not.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2010,20:19) Agreed Problem is, That the kept on sinning, and kept on being the children of desobidence,
They kept on complaining, which is why that generation never made it to the promise land.So either way Gods judgement was given out.
Moses prayer wasnt enough to change their hearts.
God calls for a perfect heart as well.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for everThese people sought him not,
Very few sought God,Thats why he sent his Son to blot out all transgressions once and for all.
Not a repetitive prayer of salvation,
but a lifestyle of eternal life,
having a relationship with the living God, as Moses did.Not like the children of disobdience, who looked at God from afar, and sought him not.
Yes, but today is no different most people are still rebelious so what Moses could not do with one intercession Jesus also did not do whether he blood was spilled or not, hearts are still hard and love still runs cold.The point was Moses offered up his life and the people were pardoned and it was a bloodless atonement and wouldn't have made matters worse if God would have actually accepted the offer of Moses and killed Moses on their behalf?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2010,20:09) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2010,20:19) Agreed Problem is, That the kept on sinning, and kept on being the children of desobidence,
They kept on complaining, which is why that generation never made it to the promise land.So either way Gods judgement was given out.
Moses prayer wasnt enough to change their hearts.
God calls for a perfect heart as well.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for everThese people sought him not,
Very few sought God,Thats why he sent his Son to blot out all transgressions once and for all.
Not a repetitive prayer of salvation,
but a lifestyle of eternal life,
having a relationship with the living God, as Moses did.Not like the children of disobdience, who looked at God from afar, and sought him not.
Yes, but today is no different most people are still rebelious so what Moses could not do with one intercession Jesus also did not do whether he blood was spilled or not, hearts are still hard and love still runs cold.The point was Moses offered up his life and the people were pardoned and it was a bloodless atonement and wouldn't have made matters worse if God would have actually accepted the offer of Moses and killed Moses on their behalf?
Welll im not sure, what exactly your talking about.
After the hebrews made the golden Calfwasnt the ones worshipping the calf killed?
just asking
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 25 2010,02:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2010,20:09) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2010,20:19) Agreed Problem is, That the kept on sinning, and kept on being the children of desobidence,
They kept on complaining, which is why that generation never made it to the promise land.So either way Gods judgement was given out.
Moses prayer wasnt enough to change their hearts.
God calls for a perfect heart as well.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for everThese people sought him not,
Very few sought God,Thats why he sent his Son to blot out all transgressions once and for all.
Not a repetitive prayer of salvation,
but a lifestyle of eternal life,
having a relationship with the living God, as Moses did.Not like the children of disobdience, who looked at God from afar, and sought him not.
Yes, but today is no different most people are still rebelious so what Moses could not do with one intercession Jesus also did not do whether he blood was spilled or not, hearts are still hard and love still runs cold.The point was Moses offered up his life and the people were pardoned and it was a bloodless atonement and wouldn't have made matters worse if God would have actually accepted the offer of Moses and killed Moses on their behalf?
Welll im not sure, what exactly your talking about.
After the hebrews made the golden Calfwasnt the ones worshipping the calf killed?
just asking
Moses seperated the ones who listened to him and the ones who were unwilling to repent and had those who repented kill the nonrepentantQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 25 2010,04:38) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 25 2010,02:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2010,20:09) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2010,20:19) Agreed Problem is, That the kept on sinning, and kept on being the children of desobidence,
They kept on complaining, which is why that generation never made it to the promise land.So either way Gods judgement was given out.
Moses prayer wasnt enough to change their hearts.
God calls for a perfect heart as well.
1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for everThese people sought him not,
Very few sought God,Thats why he sent his Son to blot out all transgressions once and for all.
Not a repetitive prayer of salvation,
but a lifestyle of eternal life,
having a relationship with the living God, as Moses did.Not like the children of disobdience, who looked at God from afar, and sought him not.
Yes, but today is no different most people are still rebelious so what Moses could not do with one intercession Jesus also did not do whether he blood was spilled or not, hearts are still hard and love still runs cold.The point was Moses offered up his life and the people were pardoned and it was a bloodless atonement and wouldn't have made matters worse if God would have actually accepted the offer of Moses and killed Moses on their behalf?
Welll im not sure, what exactly your talking about.
After the hebrews made the golden Calfwasnt the ones worshipping the calf killed?
just asking
Moses seperated the ones who listened to him and the ones who were unwilling to repent and had those who repented kill the nonrepentant
Ok but even the repented suffered for they continued to disobey God.Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2010,15:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?
As in that they have no desire to repentQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 03 2010,08:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2010,15:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?
As in that they have no desire to repent
I agree 100% because many are so deeply invested in their sins that their desire of sin is greater that their desire to please God.The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #212)When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #43)Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: “No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you”: But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: “Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.”
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #48)Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2010,10:27) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 03 2010,08:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2010,15:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?
As in that they have no desire to repent
I agree 100% because many are so deeply invested in their sins that their desire of sin is greater that their desire to please God.The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #212)When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #43)Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: “No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you”: But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: “Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.”
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #48)
I enjoy the sin of wearing two different textiles at once and doing a bit of work on the sabbath over consideration for anyone's Imaginary Friend. If you think that says anything about my worth in any way then perhaps you should replace the word “righteous” with “self-righteous”.Stuart
Stu,
You are in disbelief so you are not under any covenant. disbelief and rejection of God is the sin itself
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 03 2010,10:34) I enjoy the sin of wearing two different textiles at once and doing a bit of work on the sabbath over consideration for anyone's Imaginary Friend. If you think that says anything about my worth in any way then perhaps you should replace the word “righteous” with “self-righteous”. Stuart
Stu,
When you say such things, i giggle and feel amused honestly,
you tickle my heart,
Dont worry you and I are the sameQuote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2010,04:27) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 03 2010,08:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2010,15:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?
As in that they have no desire to repent
I agree 100% because many are so deeply invested in their sins that their desire of sin is greater that their desire to please God.The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #212)When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #43)Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: “No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you”: But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: “Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.”
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #48)
Than it goes back to the logic,
that since Mankind has no desire to repent,
than there is a need for atonement that will settle things once and for all, since the desire is once and for all.Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2010,16:42) Stu, You are in disbelief so you are not under any covenant. disbelief and rejection of God is the sin itself
I am very happy not to be suffering under delusions of covenant. That sounds like a dodgy contract to have signed.As the word sin does not apply to non-Abrahamists, your statement must be faulty.
Stuart
Stu pot,
The word 'Sin' applies to the whole of humanity.
Denying such dos not absolve one of responsibility.
Ignorance is not a defence…for the Scriptures will be preached throughout the entire earth…and then the end will come…that none may be in ignorance and say, 'Lord, I did not know you'.
And for this reason, Jesus went in Spirit, by the Holy Spirit, to speak to the lost ones from the days of Noah, so they, even they may have the chance of salvation in the last day.
Here is a call for Scientific Wisdom. Come close and check this…
How did Jesus 'go back' to those in the days of Noah and preach to them if they were/are already dead.
Hint, the spirit of God in one knows no dimensional boundaries, whether Space, nor Time. Hard to understand? Not to JustAskin, yet, …yet, Science is seeking to achieve such while denying the one whom it is already an inate feature.
Science wants to sayn, 'it invented it'.Stu, there is nothing that man createsm discovers, invents, designs or conceive that God has not already done and is not within God's control that he has limited man to be able to achieve.
Think, (don't think, believe), you are a parent, a clever, intelligent, wise, loving parent (Ok, try and think of someone who is that).
Is there anything that you would allow your child to dabble with that you did not already know the outcome of?
It would be a foolhardy and irresponsible parent who did (Talking idealistically)
So then, what of God. God will not allow mankind to destroy the earth. He will allow us t discover small and large things and manufacture them to our liking…this is freedom, freedom that the animals do not have and angels cannot receive.So what has science discovered that the ancients did not already know? In fact, just the refinements, disease, the cause of, the effect of, the higher atmostphere, …a few things that could not be fathomed by the 'childlike minds' of the people of the day. Yet, they could calculate better than even the SuperComputers of 21st Century man. How so, have we retrograded..perhaps, as we give more and more of our 'spirit', the authority and power of man, to the one made of the sands of the sea who was crippled and yet still lives, the great silicon machine.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 04 2010,17:48) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2010,04:27) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 03 2010,08:09) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2010,15:35) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 29 2010,17:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2010,05:32) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,10:29) Even Moses Sister and brother were about to betry Moses.
Who is sinless? They had to repent again and again and again and again.
IT was never ending,
And not only that, how many times does one really sin?
can you really remember all the sins to repent for?
A continued atonement for sin all the time?
That is why we must rely on the Mercy of God remembering that God knows:Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So we rely on The Merciful, The Compassionate
God is SLOW to Anger, but doesnt mean he will not EVENTUALLY react.Just like Niniveh, God pardoned them through jonah, and than finally sent Nahum (or by a letter) and in the end they were destroyed off the face of the earth.
So point being, just because God gave a pardon at one point, doesnt mean that he will eventually finsih off what we started.
Thats my point how can a sinful person, who continues to react in sin, or in other words in disobediance, who has a lying tongue, who heart is deceitfully wicked,
in other words HATES God, not through words, but through there actions and desires of the flesh, really repent by themselves?
what do you mean repent by themselves?
As in that they have no desire to repent
I agree 100% because many are so deeply invested in their sins that their desire of sin is greater that their desire to please God.The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #212)When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #43)Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: “No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you”: But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: “Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.”
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #48)
Than it goes back to the logic,
that since Mankind has no desire to repent,
than there is a need for atonement that will settle things once and for all, since the desire is once and for all.
I didn't think I was coming across that way, sorry about that. Many desire closeness to God and there has always been those that love the guidance of God that is why Jesus said he didn't come for those who have that natural inclination(Righteous) but those who are sinners. The fact is everyone is not a “sinner” if they were Jesus would not have made the distinction himself.You know I find it funny that many people will take some things Jesus says and actually add feelings to what was written like as if he meant something he said sarcastically or he meant to be sneaky when he said something.
For instance when Jesus asks why did somone call him good and then say none is good but God, some people will say “Jesus was implying that calling him good was calling him “God” but the fact is Jesus was simply being humble and giving all glory to God not even calling himself good.
When Jesus say he didn't come for the righteous some people will claim that Jesus was insinuating that people were being self-righteous and that's simply not what the scripture says many people in the scriptures are called righteous and God refers to “righteous” people all the time.
The fact is everyone can sin but not everybody does sin it's really not that eas to sin in the first place unless a person is an Atheist i.e. not loving God with all their heart, soul and mind.
Other than that how hard is it to not bear false witness, abstain from blood, fornicate, commit adultery, steal or any other obviously improper thing. Sometimes we even go too far even making up sins in some churches. Seriously, with no scriptural soundness some churches will condemn all sorts of activities and call them sins worthy of hell when they are not “Sins” at all.
The fact is you are not going to hell because you watch TV I don't care what program it is, listening to the radio, dancing, smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, hanging out all night wih friends, having crazy sweaty sex with your wife in all sorts of positions, eating gormet food on the beach with an ice cold brew watching the sunrise. Your life was not meant to sit in a pew with a sad face lacking all joy in the fear that any false move and hell is your end.
Now of course someone should exercise self-control in their life but we should not call what is not a sin a sin. In some Islamic countries where women where the burka that's not something that's in the Quran it simply like the Bible says that a women should be moderate in dress(a man also) but the reason is not because it's a sin to wear beautiful adornments the fact is others who do sin might be tempted to molest them. Remember our temptations in life are nothing more than over reactions to all the things God created for us.
You see a woman and automatically it catches your attention and mankind has a strong imagination so just showing the stomach and a little leg and the hearts get racing it's strang because even where there are nun
s or burkas a man will still need to restrain his glances because even that may excite someone but if a man can free up all that sexual tension by having guilt free love with his own wife he can easily exhaust much of that.Why tell a priest not to have a wife it is not a commandment and the reason for it was political anyway because you don't want priest having babies and grow up political in a church that's very dangerous for those in power so it happens that creating celibate priests is creating homosexual tendecies and it's not how people think that some homosexuals are simply signing up, these in most cases were perfectly good men told to ignore their natural God given sexual urges and you cannot defeat nature at all so you will wind up with all sorts of problems isn't it true that where you find noncelibate priests you don't find a molestation problem.
Bod, seems like you been hooked up with the wrong sort of Christian and now tainting all with the same brush.
The Catholics, the offspring of the Abomination, now them you can go to town on. But don't believe that all Christian are as such like them.
Here in this forum, there are many with many beliefs. You need to be more pointed at whom you are claiming against…and you may be right in some instances but hurtful in another towards the truth of that other.
By not thinking pointedly you can never see the truth because you will always be able to say, 'well, he does wrong', and, 'he said falsely', and, 'she proclaims unrighteously', yet all are lumped together and the next you say, 'he is right concerning this and that but because the …others… were wrong, then he must also be wrong some time, too. So i'm not going to be convinced'
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