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Hi,
If anyone wants to browse the book of mormon here is a link.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/m/mormon/browse.htmlI hadn't thought of it that way, Nick. But that sounds more like Tritheism to me than Trinitarianism. I guess the question I would have is what the term “fully divine” means. Would an angel or holy messenger be thought of as fully divine or just partially? As far as I know, I never met a person who worshiped Christ as anything more than the Son of God, and never the Holy Ghost in any manner. The three are definitely put on a similar level though.
That info on baptism for the dead sounds pretty spot on. That's something that's seemed kind of trivial to me, but so has baptism period for that matter.
Hi kyle,
They teach an unnatural separation between God and His Spirit.
The Spirit is a manifestation of God, the finger of God, in His Son and the sons of God and in His creation.Lk 11
” 20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. “Quote Found this
“The Doctrinal Exclusion: Trinity and the Nature of God
“If by 'the doctrine of the Trinity' one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is as simple as that. The Latter-day Saints' first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842, states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost……However, if by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils–that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence–then Latter-day Saints do not believe it. They do not believe it, because it is not biblical. Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity –words like coequal, consubstantial, and circumincession, or the word trinity itself, for that matter–are not found in scripture. ” Are Mormons Christian? ”
Interesting, but Is 1:18 who is the largest fighter of the trinity belief on here doesn't believe in “the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils” either. Yet, no one would argue that he doesn't believe God is a trinity. So what does this mean?True that.
People believe in all kinds of trinities. Is one better than another if the bible doesn't teach it?
I guess it is important to look at what a Mormon does for salvation and compare that to scripture.
Kyle in your understanding, do you have salvation? If so, what is it that you have done or accepted that leads you to believe this?
I think that would be wise place to start.
Good idea, t8. I think it's important for me to point out right now that members of the LDS faith generally aren't as “works dependant” as some seem to think. The fourth article of faith states, “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance…” This means that faith in Christ is always number one. They believe in the full and necessary saving power of Christ's atonement just as any Christian would. But they also find good works to be important, and that's where repentance comes in for them. It's a continual process of bettering one's self bit by bit. You wouldn't have to catch every single sin or try to lead a perfect life, because that would obviously be impossible and cause massive amounts of guilt. All you would need to do would be to try to recognize sin when you see it, and then hopfully try to do better next time. You could also pray for forgivness if you felt prompted to do so. LDS don't believe in works over faith in Christ, but a healthy combination. The thought is that the atonement isn't an excuse to just not follow God's commandments. We should still try our best to be good people. Then we can let the blood of Christ wash away everything else. I don't think most would disagree with this take on things.
But do I have salvation in my mind? That's a good question. While I'm not certain, I guess I would like to think that I do. I like to think that whatever is in a person's heart matters the most. Even if someone doesn't know everything he needs to know or isn't doing everything he needs to do, I'd still like to think he's alright in God's eyes if he's honestly doing his best. At this point I don't think it matters so much where exactly a person is, but what directions he's pointing.
Hi kyle,
So would you be able to align your view of salvation with how Peter spoke at Pentecost? Repentance there seemed to relate to something different to how you describe it. Were you baptised an an infant or by an adult decision after repentance?I was baptized when I was about 9. I was pretty young and quite a different person then, but it was my decision. The baptism was by full immersion and I recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost right afterwards.
Hi kyle,
No worries. God's Spirit comes with gifts to empower the body of Christ and make it one so maybe you should seek those gifts to be useful for God?1Cor 12
“31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”Hi,
Mormons claim to have prophets.
From their siteProphetsMany different words were translated as prophet in the Bible. “A prophet may be a minister, a singer, a priest, or some other person. In short, a prophet is anyone who presents the Word of God to his fellowmen, or who praises the works of God.” (Young’s Analytical Concordance To The Bible) Webster’s Dictionary gives three primary definitions for the word prophet: (1) a person who speaks for God, (2) a religious teacher or leader regarded as, or claiming to be, divinely inspired, and (3) a person who predicts future events in any way. James fulfilled all three definitions of the term prophet.
The Spirit of Truth received when a person is born of the Spirit includes a gift of prophesy. “13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16) One of the gifts of the Holy Ghost is the gift of prophesy. The Apostle Paul placed great value on this gift. “1 Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.” (1 Cor. 14)
Generally, the higher a person progresses in the priesthood, the greater this gift is manifested; until a person is ordained to the Prophetic Office and enjoys a fullness of this gift. Prophets often see various times like rows of hills at different distances. Seeing both the near times and the far times, they often speak of different times in the same verse.
High Priests are often referred to as prophets in the Bible. James wrote, “They who are faithful in the calling, have the gift of prophecy. Hence High Priests are frequently spoken of under the name of Prophets.” (Book of the Law, p. 225)
There is also the Prophetic Office. This is the highest order of the Melchisedec Priesthood and presides as First President over the people of God. The superior office is that of first degree Apostle; and is a Lawgiver, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Translator. “This Degree is sole, and gives the word of God as from his own mouth.” (Book of the Law, p. 214) James fulfilled all of these duties. He stood as First President having communion with God; and offered many Revelations from God giving the people guidance on the will of God. Communication with God is limited only by the faithfulness and obedience of the people. When men turn from the will of God to the commandments of men and delights of the world, they lose communication with God. Eventually the Spirit is completely withdrawn. The command that the people should gather, have all things in common, and be as one, was broken both under Joseph and James.
James provided numerous revelations from God to the people. These are addressed in the chapter, James the Revelator. James also continually offered the people guidance on the will of God through various tracts; and through his teachings in the official church journals. He published four Pastoral Letters to the church that are included in this chapter. The prophecies which he gave (up to this generation) have been perfectly fulfilled. His prophecies of events yet future, agree with those in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants.
As a translator he provided the Voree Record and The Book of the Law of the Lord. The latter remains the most valuable document given through James to the people of God. It was the most sacred of all the books of Scripture. It is noted by name over twenty times in the Bible; and as the law of God hundreds of times. The teachings of James bring a wealth of information on doctrinal subjects. They are included in the chapter, James the Teacher.
After the loss of the Melchisedec Priesthood in Israel , during the Egyptian captivity, Moses was called to the office of Apostle, Prophet, and Lawgiver; and received the Book of the Law of the Lord on tables of stone—written by the finger of God. Before the death of Moses, God commanded Moses to call Joshua to the second order of the Prophetic Office. “18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; 19 And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. 20 And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. 21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.” (Num. 27)
This office if that of second degree Apostle; and is Counselor, Prophet, Seer, and King. In the absence of a Lawgiver, this lower office can stand at the head of the people; when specifically given that commission; as was Joshua. James explained the possible succession in the office of second degree Apostle, “If there was an interregnum in the Priesthood of Lawgiver, the oldest Apostle of this Degree… would stand at the head till the place was filled.” (Book of the Law, p. 219)
Only those who have been properly called to the Prophetic Office have authority to stand at the head of the Church of Christ . After the death of Joseph, Sidney Rigdon, a second degree Apostle, attempted to stand at the head. His claim could have been valid if he had been specifically ordained as head the people. But, James had already been ordained as a first degree Apostle above him. The lesser is always blessed by the greater. The office of First President, and head of the people, requires a specific ordination by one holding greater authority. Moses stood above Joshua in the priesthood. Joseph and James stood above Sidney Rigdon.
Although Joshua stood at the head of the people, and held the keys of mysteries and revelation, his office was that of an interpreter and administrator (of existing laws)—he could not give new commandments to the people. After Joshua, Prophet Judges, and Prophets stood at the head of the people of God; and provided communication with God. The inferior Kings in Israel [e.g. David and Solomon] were subject to the Prophets; as they held the lower office of High Priest.
A distinguishing feature of Prophets of God is communication with God. God does not separate Himself from man. It is man who, through lack of faith and disobedience, separates himself from God. “1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Isa. 59) James was the only person who claimed to succeed Joseph; and who provided this essential communication with God.
Brigham Young claimed to stand at the head; as a third degree Apostle. This lower degree is that of Ambassador and not of Prophet; and holds no royal (presiding) authority in Zion . They can act with presiding authority only under the direction of the Presidency. Brigham Young was never ordained according to the law of God to the Prophetic Office (See the Kirtland Council Record Book, p. 72). He held the office of First President only by a popular vote of his followers—in rebellion to the authority established by God through James. Having no communication with God, Brigham never fulfilled the office of Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Translator. Only the last section in the Utah Doctrine and Covenants alludes to Brigham giving “The Word and Will of the Lord.” As Brigham was never ordained to the Prophetic Office, this section is a bold usurpation of the authority of God.
About four hundred years before Jesus , Judah had become so corrupted they became separated from God; and lost the guidance of a Prophet of God. Jesus restored the Melchisedec Priesthood and the office of Apo
stle, Prophet, and Lawgiver. After the death of Jesus, Peter, James, and John were successively called at the head of the people. Jesus told Peter, “17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.” (John 21)The first vacancy in the twelve third degree Apostles, left by Judas, was filled by Matthais (Acts 1:26 ). The calling of Peter to the Prophetic Office left a second vacancy in the Twelve. The vacancy left by Peter was filled by Paul. Peter addressed his epistles to the church; where Paul addressed his only to the churches within his jurisdiction.
John was the last Prophet of God in the former Gentile dispensation. The final book in the Bible is the book of Revelation by John. It begins with a strong warning to the Gentile churches. The gentiles had already begun to fall back into their pagan traditions and evil practices. Jesus gave them one final warning. “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.” (Rev. 2:5)
They would not. God called no more Prophets; and no longer spoke with them. Prophesy, ecclesiastical history, and church leaders agree that the Gentiles returned to paganism. Constantine completed the conversion of Christianity to paganism—changing only the names. Mosheim, the noted ecclesiastical historian, traced this apostasy during each century after Jesus. He wrote of the fourth century under Constantine , “The rites and institutions, by which the Greeks, Romans, and other nations, had formerly testified their religious veneration for fictitious deities, were now adopted, with some slight alterations by Christian bishops, and employed in the service of the true God.” (Mosheim, Ecclesiastical History, Century 4, Part 2, chap 4:1, 4)
John saw a beast (Mystery, Babylon the Great) that was to overcome the Church of Christ , the divine authority of God, and close the door to the kingdom of heaven for 1260 years. “5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months… 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev. 13)
“10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen [ Egypt , Assyria , Babylon , Persia , and Greece ], and one is [Pagan Rome], and the other is not yet come [Pagan Christian Rome]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [325 AD to 476AD]. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [Papal Rome], and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” (Rev. 17)
The final form of the beast—Papal Rome—was established in 570 AD. The kingdom of Satan now had complete control over the souls of man. There were many dissenters against the doctrines and rule of the Popes. Constantine had declared resistance to the doctrines of the Catholic Church heresy–a civil crime punishable by death. It has been estimated the Popes were responsible for the martyrdom of 50,000,000 people.
After the 1260 years, John prophesied that divine authority and the gospel of Christ would be restored to the earth; and Jesus taught the gospel would be preached one last time as a witness against the Gentiles before their destruction. “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” (Rev. 14:6) Jesus said, “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” (Matt. 24:14)
Exactly 1260 years later, on April 6, 1830 , Joseph Smith, established the Church of Christ; according to the freedom of religion provisions of the first amendment. He had previously been ordained under the hands of Peter, James, and John as Apostle, Prophet, and Lawgiver. He restored the same order to the house of God that Jesus had done almost two thousand years earlier. “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists [High Priests]; and some, pastors [Elders] and teachers.” (Eph. 4:11)
This was to be the last time the gospel would be preached to the Gentiles. “Wherefore, labor ye, labor ye in my vineyard for the last time–for the last time call upon the inhabitants of the earth.” (Doctrine and Covenants, 43:28) Again, the Gentiles refused to live by the will of God. Joseph Smith was martyred on June 27, 1844 ; and gave his blood as a witness to the truth of his calling.
Joseph Smith had left several revelations that, in the event of his impending death, he would appoint “another” in his place. Joseph also noted the law of God provides that only one ordained at the hands of angels has a legitimate claim to the higher Prophetic Office held by Joseph.
“4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead. 5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments; 6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me. 7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.” (Doctrine and Covenants, Sec. 43; see also D&C 28:2, 6, 7; 35:17, 18; 43:3; and 90:3, 4)
James became familiar with the Church of Christ through two of his brothers-in-law. His brother-in-law, Benjamin, joined the latter day saints. Moses Smith, a highly respected member of the church, visited Burlington , Wisconsin . The extreme interest generated by this visit caused James to return on foot with Aaron Smith, some 400 miles in the middle of winter, in February, 1844, to Nauvoo , Illinois –the gathering place of the saints. On February 25, he was baptized of water and the Spirit by Joseph Smith.
He was ordained an Elder by Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph and Patriarch to the church, on March 3rd. As Hyrum laid his hands upon James’ head, he prophesied that he would hold the same priesthood as Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.
“In February in the year eighteen hundred and forty four James J. Strang in company with Aaron Smith and under his teachings visited Nauvoo the city of the Saints and there was more fully instructed by Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith and Sidney Rigdon, in the Gospel.
“On the twenty fifth day of February in that year he was baptized by Joseph Smith who gave him the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and blessed him with many and great blessings and said I seal upon thy head against God's own good time the keys of the Melchisedec Priesthood and afterwards but in the same ordinance Thou shalt hold the keys of the Melchisedec Priesthood, shalt walk with Enoch, Moses and Elijah and shalt talk with God face to face.
“And on the third day of March in the same year he was ordained an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints by the laying on of hands of Hyrum Smith according to the testimony of the spirit of prophecy and the word of the Holy Ghost, and he said I perceive by the spirit which is within me that thou shalt carry the gospel with the Spirit like flaming fire to many nations and by thee shall God save the pure of his people. (Chronicles of Voree, p. 6)
On June 18th, Joseph wrote a letter appointing James as his successor in accordance with the law of God. It was sent by regular course of mail from Nauvoo on J
une 19, 1844 ; and was received in Burlington , Wisconsin on July 9. On the same day that Joseph wrote the letter, James received a vision in which he saw himself, “surrounded by wise men and counselors and priests and eloquent orators, arose and taught the people.” At the same hour that Joseph was murdered in Carthage Jail on June 27, James J. Strang claimed to have been ordained at the hands of angels to the same Prophetic Office; as Joseph’s successor; and head of the people of God. James offered a thorough examination of the law of God on succession in the Presidency and his claims to the Prophetic Office in the tract The Prophetic Controversy.What do others think of their qualifications as prophets of God?
Hi,
Usual story.
If you can get folk to accept the first little lie it is amazing what big whoppers they are prepared to swallow.Progress is going alright. Still looking mostly at the nature and character of God, and I'm almost halfway through the book I'm reading on the Arian controversy and resulting council of Nicaea.
An interesting thought occured to me the other night. I was thinking about how angels and messengers of God are often referred to as God. I thought it was weird at first, but it does make sense as long as you're aware of it. They are there speaking for and representing God. You could say that Christ was doing the exact same thing. It wouldn't be good to assume the angels in Genesis 18 are literally God, when in reallity they were just speaking for him. All of a sudden I made a correlation to John 20:28 where Thomas says to Jesus, “My Lord and my God.” It's a verse that has really been bothering me, because I haven't been able understand why he would call Jesus his God when the vast majority of scripture points to our Heavenly Father being the only true God. But then the thought clicked that maybe this was the same type of thing as in Genesis 18. I think that would make sense, but I don't know if there's any way to be sure that's the case here.
Hi Kyle,
Good point.
Thanks.
If you read Jn 14 you will see Christ specifically told THOMAS that those that saw him saw the Father. God was IN him. We should not be surprised at Thomas's reaction then.Kyle it is great to see you seeking the truth.
May God bless you and others through you.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Looking at all sides, why aren't more people recorded as calling Christ their God? Also, how can we be sure which instances people are speaking with a deeper meaning? Because you could take this all the way and say that Thomas wasn't really saying Christ was his Lord either, but that he was just refering to the Father Christ was representing. Is there a way to be sure?
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