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Quote (david @ Feb. 28 2007,03:27) Didn't say you are. I said you are a religion of one, with your very own set of beliefs, etc. And you endorse apparently that everyone should do their own thing. This causes division on an unparalleled level.
Incorrect david.I endorse that all do God's will. That means I encourage people to hear what the Spirit is saying and I also encourage all to read scripture and not bend it the way you want it. Rather to let scripture bend you.
Therefore if we all listen to God and we read scripture in an innocent way, then unity is possible because it is a unity based on God's will and truth.
I am not saying things will be perfect as men still have to contend with flesh, the world, and demons. But I am saying that if we humble ourselves to the point that Christ can live in us, then unity is the result.
Unity is not attained by following any man or organisation setup by man, but only Christ who came as a man.
The reason you cannot see this david is because you are carnal and you need a carnal solution. If you had eyes to see, you would know that it is possible to not setup a new denomination and help restore truth.
But carnal people can only see denominations and organisations of men. Therefore they will defend that system vigorously and they think it is foolishness to not belong to a denomination especially their one. And to those who do not want to take part in these kinds of works, they say they are of the denomination that rebels against them all.
You see david, such people can only denominations.
But ask yourself this. Did Christ come to setup a denomination, or to set up his body on earth?
And what did Christ say about his Church? Did he say that they will be called the Jehovah Witness organisation and that the name would change to this near the end of the second millenium? Did he say that they will be called “The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints” and that they will wear suits and badges and set up their own apostles and temples all around the world and buy shares in McDonalds.
No Jesus said about his kingdom that it was not of this world and Paul said that Christ's body is the Church.
All your assumptions about one certain cult/denomination/organisation being the right one is really quite silly and a lot of people can see how ridiculous it is david.
Do you want to be wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked? Because I can tell you that you may not see your own foolish thinking david, but others can.
Hey guys. I've been lurking around the Trinity thread for a while now, and I just found this one. I was raised LDS, so I'm sure I could answer a few of your questions.
I always believed the church was true growing up because I really had no reason not to. But I was just kind of drifting along in my faith for years without any real knowledge or zeal, which bothered me quite a bit. So at first I made the mistake that I think a lot of people do. In the back of my mind I knew it was true, so I felt like I just needed to go confirm that for myself. In a way I was doing things backwards for a time. Figuring out why I believe what I believe. I realized that that isn't very logical. So now I'm starting from scratch. I started discussing things with someone I've known for some time and I trust. He suggested that my quest for knowledge may be a little out of order. That it might be a good idea for me to first become solid in my foundation. I saw his point, and I totally agree now. Ultimately I suppose it would start with the question, “Does God exist?” I was 99% sure on that one, so I decided that that was good enough for now. The next question in line is, “What is he like?” It's definitally been exciting to search everything I can while trying to keep a most unbiased, open mind that I can. I started with John 17:3 as the basis for that. Anyway, I'm 20 and still re-examining every detail of my faith. I try to keep as open a mind as I can. I really only care about truth, no matter where it's coming from.
That said, I'm not here to defend anyone or anything. I met with a typical non-denominational guy because I really wanted to hear a clear explaination of the Trinity. What it is and why he believes it and rejects any other ideas about the nature of God. Instead all I got was the feeling of trying to be convinced, and being told I can't possibly be christian without the Trinity. In other words, I'm right and you're wrong. He kept putting me in the possition of needing to defend all the thoughts and actions of the entire LDS church. I didn't put myself there, he did. I'm not a clone of the “Mormon Cult”. I'm my own person with my own thoughts and ideas. So before anybody gets too carried away, I'm not going to argue and I'm not here to defend anything to the death. I'd be glad, however, to answer any questions you may have. I've had two decades or so to become familiar with what I was being taught, afterall. I didn't read the whole thread, so it would helpful if you could all repeat anything you'd like me to try and explain. Please be very simple, concise, and to the point in your questions. Also, you don't need to direct tons of scriptures toward me trying to prove your points. Not right now in this thread anyway. Thanks.
Hi Kyle.
I totally respect your stance Kyle.
May you find what you seek my friend. I guess the best thing to do regarding your search is participate in the threads that are related to your search and create new ones if there are none. The Trinity thread is the most popular one in the board and you could have your say there too. I take it that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity.
I would also like to remind you that scripture doesn't define a believer as believing in the Trinity, rather it says to believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and son of God.
Keep and open heart Kyle and be honest in all your dealings and I truly believe you will be blessed.
Many people never do what you are doing. I encourage you to stop at nothing and to not be discouraged by those who oppose you. But press in for there is reward for all who seek the truth with an honest heart and are willing to humble themselves when truth is presented to them that is contradictory to their current belief.
It is this attitude that allows God to shape us and change us as a potter shapes the pot.
Be blessed and trust in God who makes us a new creature in Christ.
Hi and welcome Kyle,
From the Mormon site
“Teachings About the Godhead
“Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).” Encyclopedia of MormonismForget trying to understand or deny this but follow the advice of Peter,
“repent, believe and be baptised in the name of Jesus… and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit..”Seek first the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.
Be reborn of water and the spirit and then you be able to see the kingdom.Don't worry, Nick. I'm not trying to understand or deny that at all. That's why I wrote about how I was trapped in that mind frame for awhile, but broke free. I truely am starting from scratch. If my search leads me to the church I grew up in, good. If not, that's good too. But I'm nowhere near that point just yet.
Almost forgot, t8. You're right, the LDS church doesn't hold a trinitarian belief in the slightest. Growing up I never really understood what the Trinity was or why lots of people believed in it. It was never a topic that was addressed by myself of anyone else in church. All I knew was that God is our Heavenly Father who we pray to, Christ is his Son, the Holy Ghost testifies of this, and all three work together with the same purpose. Kind of like the presidnet and vice presidents of a company I guess. Whenever I heard the Trinity talked about somewhere, I imagined God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost all mashed together in some undefinable blob without bodies, parts, or passions. Needless to say, I didn't get it. Only in the last year or less have I discovered that most Trinitarians don't think of God as just one person. That the idea is that “God” is actually a term used to describe all three at once.
I have no stance on The Book of Mormon right now. I didn't get that far before I changed my idea of how to go about this. Right now I'm in a much more foundational stage of exploration. I feel it would be best to hold off on anything church related for the time being. I'd rather keep things in order so to speak. I'm aware of various reasons and points of view for and against The Book of Mormon, but I'm holding off on that for now. Fair enough?
Hi Kyle. I have been trying to figure this out. If you say members of LDS don't believe in a trinity, then you would obviously know.
So I take it wikipedia is wrong when it says:
While they don't believe in the Catholic trinity, they seem to believe in a trinity.
“From Smith's time to the present day The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taught that the members of the Godhead are one God, though not in the consubstantial sense of unity intended by the writers of the Nicene creed. They are considered three distinct individuals who are so united in purpose and desires that they act as one, but they maintain their individuality and are not one in substance. However, each member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) is referred to as God in LDS theology.”–Wickipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity
Nature of God
In LDS belief, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are united as the “Divine Godhead” and “Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.”[24] God the Father serves in a presiding role in the Godhead and is the Father of spirits [25], including the spirit of Jesus Christ. Christ, as the mediator between mortals and the Father, is worshipped as Lord and Savior, and is also referred to throughout the LDS canon of scripture as God[26] He (Jesus) was the God of the Old Testament and during the Old Testament times was known as Jehovah. Under the direction of the Father, Jehovah (Jesus) created the Earth and all things on it. [27] . . . .The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are explicit in their assertion that all three members of the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God [30] , though this is not intended to imply oneness in the consubstantia (or “One in being” as it is sometimes rendered in English) sense intended by the Nicene Creed.
–SameMormon 7:7 speaks about singing praises “unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.”
Quote I'd be glad, however, to answer any questions you may have. I've had two decades or so to become familiar with what I was being taught, afterall. Hi Kyle
While I've talked to Mormons, and met several in their ministry and mine, and even studied with two, I really didn't ask them questions about their faith, but rather discussed the Bible.
So, are these statements correct:Quote It seems there are about 50,000 “missionaries” in this church. If I remember correctly, there are about 12 million Mormons in the world.
Quote 'Single men serve missions for two years and single women serve missions for 18 months.' Quote “Missionaries receive their assignment from Church headquarters and are sent only to countries where governments allow the Church to operate.” Quote “In some parts of the world, missionaries are sent only to serve humanitarian or other specialized missions. Those missionaries do not proselytize.” Quote “Missionary work is voluntary. Missionaries fund their own missions — except for their transportation to and from their field of labor — and are not paid for their services.” Also, while I haven't read or studied the book of Mormon, how is it related to the Bible?
I also understand that in LSD theology Jesus is thought to be the spirit brother of Satan.
Not too far removed from what the Watchtower teaches…
Quote Not too far removed from what the Watchtower teaches…
So you read the watchtower? You're always talking about what the watchtower magazine says.Anyway, I won't explain to you from the Bible how Satan existed as a spirit creature in heaven (not called Satan [Opposer, resister] of course), with the other angels and God and Jesus, because you only seem to want to . . . .
Certain pagan devil worshipping cultists believe in a trinity of gods.
Not too far removed from what Is 1:18 teaches…
But this thread is about Mormons.
Actually, if you think about it there is, in reality, no real difference between the LSD and Watchtower positions on the relationship between Jesus and Satan. The WT after all affirm that both Michael (whom they presuppose the pre-incarnate Jesus to be) and Lucifer were both angels, also described as bene elohim (“sons of God”) in the OT….of course Lucifer fell and Michael evidently didn't, but they are linked by their respective origins.
What an absurdity. It would be funny, if it wasn't costing people there eternal redemption…..
So, God created Satan as Satan the Devil (Resister, Opposer, the Liar, slanderer)
I had always believed that like a criminal who is not born a criminal, but chooses to become one, Satan the devil as he later became called, was a spirit creature, in heaven, like all the other angels.But, I guess maybe Is 1:18 has something. Maybe Jehovah created an arch enemy, someone to slander him for the purpose of … being slandered and opposed. Yup, makes perfect sense.
Ridiculous.
(I can use the fallacy of ridicule too.)
It's odd that Mormons and JW's are so often linked together, in all kinds of conspiracy theory type settings.
What they do have in common, is that they both recognize the importance of sharing something they consider important. Many do not.Other than that, there isn't really too much in common.
I can keep comparing Is 1:18 to pagans who worship trinities and believe in immortal souls and celebrate the winter solstice, etc.
But that wouldn't prove anything, would it? I find it odd that someone who knows fallacious thinking uses it so very often.
Alright you two. Lets stop arguing and getting off topic. Now to the questions:
If what is said in that quote from wikipedia is true, I wasn't ever aware of it. I and my peers never thought of anybody as God but our Heavenly Father. Christ definitely seemed to be worshiped as a divine being, but certainly not as God. Again, the Godhead is a term that was used to unite them not as a single God, but as an organization of beings. One in purpose (being the Father's), but not one God. I discovered that scripture (Mormon 7:7) a couple months ago, and I look forward to looking more deeply into what it might mean sometime down the road. Jesus being the God of the old testament is a whole other story. Someone I was talking to brought that up just like a month ago. That really shocked me. He told me that's what the church teaches, but for some reason that thought never even entered my mind in all my life. So that part may be true. But it just seems kind of weird that I never heard about it, and it would need a ton of backing up before I would ever be convinced of it. Anyway, moving on.
You're pretty spot on with the mission program. Last count I saw was 60,000 missionaries and 12 million members. Guys generally serve (if they want to) at age 19 for two years, and women generally serve (again, if they want to) at age 21 for one and a half years. Although, I'm not really sure why women serve for half a year less. It's also true that missionaries don't go to certain countries that are too dangerous or don't allow that kind of thing. China is a good example. Most of this is funded entirely by the missionaries and their families. I'm sure tithing funds fill in some of the gaps. The church has a very strong stance against paid clergy. I'm not really sure about purley humanitarian missions, but that's a definite possibility. I know food and other aid is sent all over the world and to places in the midst of emergencies.
Here's the basic idea behind The Book of Mormon. It's not ment as an addition to the bible or a retranslation as some people think. It's mearly a record of God's dealings with another people. If the bible is from the Jews, then The Book of Momon is from the gentiles. The first book starts off in Jerusalem around 600 BC. Lehi is instucted from God to take his family, some others, and some records of their ancestors into the wilderness. Eventually they end up being led across many great waters into what is now called the Americas. They start a civilization there and eventually discover others that have lived there for many years. Then things go on from there. Those who believe in The Book of Mormon don't hold it above or in competition with the Bible. It's meant to stand side by side with the bible as another testament of God and of Christ.
Lastly, Latter-Day Saints definitely do recognize Satan as a former brother to us all. We're all said to have lived in God's presence before our lives here on Earth, including Lucifer. When God showed us his plan for how we were to get back to him after our mortal existence, some accepted that plan and some didn't. Lucifer recognized that not everyone would make it back. That many would be lost. So he rejected that plan and made his own. His idea would have been to give us no choice in what we do. Sin would be impossible. But he failed to realize that without the ability to sin, righteousness become meaningless. Good cannot exist without evil, just as light is to dark. He and his followers fell out of God's presence. They were never born here,and instead desire only to bring us down to the sorrow that they feel. That's more or less how the story goes. It definitely sounds like a plausable explaination for how Satan came to be what he is today, but I have yet to study how scipture might support or deny it. It's possible that scriptures alluding to our pre-exsistance are only found in The Book of Mormon.
Hi Kyle.
I would be careful not to be drawn into defending the Mormons it may take away from your honorable stance of emptying yourself of yourself in order that truth may be established in you from the ground up.
Some people who come here love to argue over things as trivial as genealogies or ontology and so I encourage you to beware of these people. They will not ultimately help you, but will try and force you into endless debates because they like the sound of their own voice.
BTW, thanks for your explanation as to what Mormons believe, after all this is a thread about Mormons.
Quote (Kyle @ Mar. 09 2007,12:19) Alright you two. Lets stop arguing and getting off topic. Now to the questions: If what is said in that quote from wikipedia is true, I wasn't ever aware of it. I and my peers never thought of anybody as God but our Heavenly Father. Christ definitely seemed to be worshiped as a divine being, but certainly not as God. Again, the Godhead is a term that was used to unite them not as a single God, but as an organization of beings. One in purpose (being the Father's), but not one God. I discovered that scripture (Mormon 7:7) a couple months ago, and I look forward to looking more deeply into what it might mean sometime down the road. Jesus being the God of the old testament is a whole other story. Someone I was talking to brought that up just like a month ago. That really shocked me. He told me that's what the church teaches, but for some reason that thought never even entered my mind in all my life. So that part may be true. But it just seems kind of weird that I never heard about it, and it would need a ton of backing up before I would ever be convinced of it. Anyway, moving on.
You're pretty spot on with the mission program. Last count I saw was 60,000 missionaries and 12 million members. Guys generally serve (if they want to) at age 19 for two years, and women generally serve (again, if they want to) at age 21 for one and a half years. Although, I'm not really sure why women serve for half a year less. It's also true that missionaries don't go to certain countries that are too dangerous or don't allow that kind of thing. China is a good example. Most of this is funded entirely by the missionaries and their families. I'm sure tithing funds fill in some of the gaps. The church has a very strong stance against paid clergy. I'm not really sure about purley humanitarian missions, but that's a definite possibility. I know food and other aid is sent all over the world and to places in the midst of emergencies.
Here's the basic idea behind The Book of Mormon. It's not ment as an addition to the bible or a retranslation as some people think. It's mearly a record of God's dealings with another people. If the bible is from the Jews, then The Book of Momon is from the gentiles. The first book starts off in Jerusalem around 600 BC. Lehi is instucted from God to take his family, some others, and some records of their ancestors into the wilderness. Eventually they end up being led across many great waters into what is now called the Americas. They start a civilization there and eventually discover others that have lived there for many years. Then things go on from there. Those who believe in The Book of Mormon don't hold it above or in competition with the Bible. It's meant to stand side by side with the bible as another testament of God and of Christ.
Lastly, Latter-Day Saints definitely do recognize Satan as a former brother to us all. We're all said to have lived in God's presence before our lives here on Earth, including Lucifer. When God showed us his plan for how we were to get back to him after our mortal existence, some accepted that plan and some didn't. Lucifer recognized that not everyone would make it back. That many would be lost. So he rejected that plan and made his own. His idea would have been to give us no choice in what we do. Sin would be impossible. But he failed to realize that without the ability to sin, righteousness become meaningless. Good cannot exist without evil, just as light is to dark. He and his followers fell out of God's presence. They were never born here,and instead desire only to bring us down to the sorrow that they feel. That's more or less how the story goes. It definitely sounds like a plausable explaination for how Satan came to be what he is today, but I have yet to study how scipture might support or deny it. It's possible that scriptures alluding to our pre-exsistance are only found in The Book of Mormon.
Hi Kyle,
If the book of mormon is just a tale of some folks travelling across America why is it put along side the bible at all?Totally, t8. I won't ever attempt to defend anyone but myself in this regard. And even then, nothing is set in stone. You have to keep an open mind and admit good points that are contrary to your current opinion when you hear them. Just keep in mind that I have very little opinion either way of the LDS church right now.
Good question, Nick. I think your answer would probably come from asking a similar question of the Bible. If the Bible is just some stories about some peole who lived in the Middle East a long time ago, why do so many find it so significant? Obviously the Bible's significance comes from the belief that it's the inspired word of God. Similarly, if you happen to believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, it holds just as much significance as the Bible. But if you don't, it's just a bunch of stories. I also didn't Explain what occurs in the book in any detail. It's filled with all the same kinds of things you find in the bible. Prophets, miracles, visions, and most importantly teachings of God and Christ. The significance would be obvious to anyone believing the account to be anything other than fiction.
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