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I once asked for list of groups, organized groups that dis believe the trinity belief. I'm certain that mormonism was listed among them.
But I don't think it can be. While they don't believe in the Catholic trinity, they seem to believe in a trinity.
“From Smith's time to the present day The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taught that the members of the Godhead are one God, though not in the consubstantial sense of unity intended by the writers of the Nicene creed. They are considered three distinct individuals who are so united in purpose and desires that they act as one, but they maintain their individuality and are not one in substance. However, each member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) is referred to as God in LDS theology.”–Wickipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity
Nature of God
In LDS belief, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are united as the “Divine Godhead” and “Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.”[24] God the Father serves in a presiding role in the Godhead and is the Father of spirits [25], including the spirit of Jesus Christ. Christ, as the mediator between mortals and the Father, is worshipped as Lord and Savior, and is also referred to throughout the LDS canon of scripture as God[26] He (Jesus) was the God of the Old Testament and during the Old Testament times was known as Jehovah. Under the direction of the Father, Jehovah (Jesus) created the Earth and all things on it. [27] . . . .The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are explicit in their assertion that all three members of the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God [30] , though this is not intended to imply oneness in the consubstantia (or “One in being” as it is sometimes rendered in English) sense intended by the Nicene Creed.
–SameMormon 7:7 speaks about singing praises “unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.”
As far as I can tell, there are really no other groups that claim to be Christians that dis believe the trinity. When I originally asked this, a few words were mentioned. Some of them were philosophies. I'm wondering which Christians do not believe in the trinity?
Just looking at Wickipedia.
It seems there are about 50,000 “missionaries” in this church.
If I remember correctly, there are about 12 million Mormons in the world.
Does this mean that at any given time, only 1 in about 240 think that their message is important enough to take to others?
Or am I misunderstaning this?
Also, 'Single men serve missions for two years and single women serve missions for 18 months.'
And then what? Why 2 years? Is their message not important enough to preach always? I don't understand this.This is also interesting:
“Missionaries receive their assignment from Church headquarters and are sent only to countries where governments allow the Church to operate.”JW's for example, are obeying Jesus command to preach in about 25 countries right now, where the law of the land does not allow it. We feel that everyone needs a chance to hear this most wonderful news, regardless of what happens to us. We feel it's better to “obey God as ruler, rather than men” where one conflicts the other.
“A typical missionary day begins by waking at 6:30 a.m. for personal study. . . Missionaries end their day by 10:30 p.m.”
Ok, actually, that is impressive.If they're out there all that time, I have to wonder how they can afford to live? Paul made tents to support himself. Are these ones paid? Does anyone know?
“In some parts of the world, missionaries are sent only to serve humanitarian or other specialized missions. Those missionaries do not proselytize.”
Ok, that 50,000 number seems to be dropping.“Missionary work is voluntary. Missionaries fund their own missions — except for their transportation to and from their field of labor — and are not paid for their services.”
Question answered, I guess. But I still wonder how they could fund such a thing? I guess I now see why they only do this for 2 years. Perhaps that's all they can afford, they way they do it.There aren't any mormons' on here, are there?
Hi david,
Bathing in the reflected JW glory of claiming to be righteous in these matters does ask the question shown in 1 Cor 12
” 27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
If all JWs are evangelists then how can they be part of the body of Christ?
“Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are translators, are they?” (1 Cor. 12:29, 30)
However, there was something that all in the congregation could do.
In fact, it was something even more outstanding than the pursuit of the “greater gifts.”
This is evident from the apostle’s next words of encouragement: “Keep zealously seeking the greater gifts. And yet I show you a surpassing way.”—1 Cor. 12:31.
What is this surpassing way? It is the way of love.
Pointing out how love is of greater value than abilities and gifts or endowments, Paul wrote: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.”—1 Cor. 13:1-3.
I have a question Nick. If you love your neighbor, will you tell him the greatest news he could ever hear? (mat 24:14)
The above scripture you quoted doesn't really speak of preaching. The COMMAND that Jesus gave his disciples was to “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations…” (mat 28:19,20) It seems that if you had the greater gift of love, you would want to help your neighbor find life. Am I wrong? Don't you want to do this? Shouldn't everyone who has love want to share in proclaiming this good news?
Yes. And they do.david
Quote (david @ Feb. 21 2007,17:00) I have a question Nick. If you love your neighbor, will you tell him the greatest news he could ever hear? (mat 24:14)
Yes, but the greatest news is not joining the JWs or the Mormons.Quote (david @ Feb. 20 2007,22:00) “Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are translators, are they?” (1 Cor. 12:29, 30) However, there was something that all in the congregation could do.
In fact, it was something even more outstanding than the pursuit of the “greater gifts.”
This is evident from the apostle’s next words of encouragement: “Keep zealously seeking the greater gifts. And yet I show you a surpassing way.”—1 Cor. 12:31.
What is this surpassing way? It is the way of love.
Pointing out how love is of greater value than abilities and gifts or endowments, Paul wrote: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.”—1 Cor. 13:1-3.
I have a question Nick. If you love your neighbor, will you tell him the greatest news he could ever hear? (mat 24:14)
The above scripture you quoted doesn't really speak of preaching. The COMMAND that Jesus gave his disciples was to “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations…” (mat 28:19,20) It seems that if you had the greater gift of love, you would want to help your neighbor find life. Am I wrong? Don't you want to do this? Shouldn't everyone who has love want to share in proclaiming this good news?
Yes. And they do.david
Hi David:The Church of Latter Day Saints and the Jehovah Witness both are zealous for God and both show their zeal by going into the world to evangelize, but I ask, if they go with the wrong message or doctrine were they sent by God, alth;ough they might have good intentions?
When I was born again I was zealous to share my testimony with whoever would listen, and I lost a couple of jobs because of that zeal, and ended spending 3 months in a psychiatric ward and a period of about 10 years out of the church until God could correct me in some scripture that I had misunderstood. One cannot go teach others until one is first taught himself.
It is true that as born again believers we the church have the commision from the Lord to go and make disciples of all nations, but not all are Apostles, not all are evangelists, not all are pastors or teachers or prophets, but if they are God ordained them (qualified them for the position), and all members have a role in the commision from the Lord although not all may be one the front line. If you support some one who is sent by God, an Apostle, are you not obeying the commission? Without love, the gifts of the spirit would be useless. Jesus is our example of how in love we would use whatever gifts God has given us. But if one is not faithful in the way he uses material things that God has put in his possession in obeying the Commision from the Lord, why would God give you spiritual gifts. “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least, is unjust also in much”. (Luke 16:10)
The scripture also states: “And many false prohpets shall rise, and shall deceive many”. (Matt. 24:11)
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Quote “Yes…” T8, you missed my point. But by answering it in the affirmative as any sane person would, you show Nick's reasoning to be false. Thankyou.
Quote When I was born again I was zealous to share my testimony with whoever would listen, and I lost a couple of jobs because of that zeal, Hi 94. Yes, I have met many “born again's” when I was knocking on their door, when I made the effort and went to them. They do have a zeal and every single one of them that I've talked to has told me they'd pray for me as I left. I always have this weird heeby jeeby feeling when talking to them and feel icky when being around them. All the ones I have met in the ministry seem to teach satanic teachings (such as the trinity).
No “born again” person has ever attempted to make contact with me. So, what's up? (Mat 24:14) In light of Jesus words, how can that be? The answer is obvious. Jesus followers were told to “search out” deserving ones. And that they do today, as well.
I hadn't even read the rest of your sentence:
Quote and I lost a couple of jobs because of that zeal, and ended spending 3 months in a psychiatric ward and a period of about 10 years out of the church until God could correct me in some scripture that I had misunderstood.
This makes sense to me. I am sorry you got caught up in this badness. Perhaps had I met you, just before you spent time with the pychiatrist, when I came to your door, you too, would have weirded me out. The people who falsely believe they are “born again” seem quite a strange bunch to me….well, all the ones I have met over the years. They do all seem to be on the edge.Quote It is true that as born again believers we the church have the commision from the Lord to go and make disciples of all nations, but not all are Apostles, not all are evangelists, not all are pastors or teachers or prophets, but if they are God ordained them (qualified them for the position), and all members have a role in the commision from the Lord although not all may be one the front line. Are sure that the command to “Go and make disciples…” is a part of this? Which Bible are you quoting from? I'm having trouble finding a Bible that has the word “evangelizers” in it at this scripture. I believe “teachers” is how many Bible's translate that word. Which Bible are you using?
A “teacher” is different that a “preacher.”MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached* in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”*Or, “be heralded.” Gr., ke·ry·khthe′se·tai; Lat., prae·di·ca′bi·tur. Compare Da 5:29 ftn, “Heralded.”
Quote The scripture also states: “And many false prohpets shall rise, and shall deceive many”. (Matt. 24:11)
Right now, you seem to be telling everyone that a follower of Christ does't have to share the greatest news on the planet that anyone on the planet could ever hear.
Would you like to retract your statments?Quote My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
And yet, you, or one's who think similarly would make no effort to reach me with life saving news.
Jehovah's Witnesses “search out” everyone, everywhere with this life saving good news.Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,00:51) Quote When I was born again I was zealous to share my testimony with whoever would listen, and I lost a couple of jobs because of that zeal, Hi 94. Yes, I have met many “born again's” when I was knocking on their door, when I made the effort and went to them. They do have a zeal and every single one of them that I've talked to has told me they'd pray for me as I left. I always have this weird heeby jeeby feeling when talking to them and feel icky when being around them. All the ones I have met in the ministry seem to teach satanic teachings (such as the trinity).
No “born again” person has ever attempted to make contact with me. So, what's up? (Mat 24:14) In light of Jesus words, how can that be? The answer is obvious. Jesus followers were told to “search out” deserving ones. And that they do today, as well.
I hadn't even read the rest of your sentence:
Quote and I lost a couple of jobs because of that zeal, and ended spending 3 months in a psychiatric ward and a period of about 10 years out of the church until God could correct me in some scripture that I had misunderstood.
This makes sense to me. I am sorry you got caught up in this badness. Perhaps had I met you, just before you spent time with the pychiatrist, when I came to your door, you too, would have weirded me out. The people who falsely believe they are “born again” seem quite a strange bunch to me….well, all the ones I have met over the years. They do all seem to be on the edge.Quote It is true that as born again believers we the church have the commision from the Lord to go and make disciples of all nations, but not all are Apostles, not all are evangelists, not all are pastors or teachers or prophets, but if they are God ordained them (qualified them for the position), and all members have a role in the commision from the Lord although not all may be one the front line. Are sure that the command to “Go and make disciples…” is a part of this? Which Bible are you quoting from? I'm having trouble finding a Bible that has the word “evangelizers” in it at this scripture. I believe “teachers” is how many Bible's translate that word. Which Bible are you using?
A “teacher” is different that a “preacher.”MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached* in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”*Or, “be heralded.” Gr., ke·ry·khthe′se·tai; Lat., prae·di·ca′bi·tur. Compare Da 5:29 ftn, “Heralded.”
Quote The scripture also states: “And many false prohpets shall rise, and shall deceive many”. (Matt. 24:11)
Right now, you seem to be telling everyone that a follower of Christ does't have to share the greatest news on the planet that anyone on the planet could ever hear.
Would you like to retract your statments?Quote My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
And yet, you, or one's who think similarly would make no effort to reach me with life saving news.
Jehovah's Witnesses “search out” everyone, everywhere with this life saving good news.
Hi David:My point in sharing that I lost two jobs because of my zeal is to let you know that I was not prepared to preach the gospel at this point, but I will share my testimony with you and the rest of this forum so that you can see the foolish mistakes that I have made.
I never said that we should not share the gospel with the world. I said that this was the commission of the whole church. A person who has been born again can share his tesimony of how he has come into a pesonal relationship with God, but in order to share the Word of God, he must first be taught himself. If you have not been born again, you do not have a personal relationship with God. You may believe that God is a reality, but he is not the Father of your spirit. And if he is not the Father of your spirit, why would be send you to testify of Him?
I can't answer for every born again believer, but I don't believe in the “trinity” doctrine, and if you will search my posts you will find that I have tried to reach not only the Jehovah Witness, but the Mormons, and the Catholic Bishops, and the Jews, and the Muslims. I may have not indicated in my posts that I have written to all of these not with a condemning attitude but simply with the message that I had a different understanding of the scriptures than they and inviting discussion so that we could possibly come into unity.
And about reaching you, that is exactly what I am trying to do with these posts addressed to you. There is a website by a former JW which may interest you: www.love4JWs.com.
I just learned of the website and have visited it only once and I have not bought his book as yet.In Jesus ministry he called his Apostles and qualified them by teaching them prior to his asencion into the heavens, and he gave them the authority over the church on earth. He is the head of the church and rules from heaven. Before he ascended into heaven, he told the Apostles not to leave Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Father which is the Holy Ghost. Jesus said to them: “But you shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the utermost part of the earth”.
They as well as we need the Holy Ghost in order to be his witnesses.
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you”. (Rom. 8:9-11)
If you do not have a personal relationship with God, how can you be a witness for him. You might testify of what you have heard or what the bible states or of what you believe because of God's creation, but you can not share that you know through personal experience that God is a reality and that the testimony of his Son is true.
God Bless
Hi david,
you said
“Jesus followers were told to “search out” deserving ones….”
and you said
“Jehovah's Witnesses “search out” everyone, everywhere with this life saving good news.”So whom are you obeying?
Quote So whom are you obeying?
JW's, including me, go to people everywhere BECAUSE of what Jesus has commanded.
Saying that I am “following” JW's doesn't make sense here, because JW's are following Jesus command. That is why they share the Bible message with everyone.Quote There is a website by a former JW which may interest you: http://www.love4JWs.com.
I just learned of the website and have visited it only once and I have not bought his book as yet.
Hi 94. Beware of people who are trying to make money by selling for profit what people want to hear.Quote “But you shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the utermost part of the earth”. They as well as we need the Holy Ghost in order to be his witnesses.
Yes, for a certainty, one needs the holy spirit to carry out this work.Quote If you do not have a personal relationship with God, how can you be a witness for him. You might testify of what you have heard or what the bible states or of what you believe because of God's creation, but you can not share that you know through personal experience that God is a reality and that the testimony of his Son is true. I'm not sure what you're implying. But if you want to talk about being kicked out of wills over the good news, having Bible's torn up because of the good news, having family members reject you, I could discuss these things.
Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,19:34) Quote “Yes…” T8, you missed my point. But by answering it in the affirmative as any sane person would, you show Nick's reasoning to be false. Thankyou.
david, are you saying that Nick says that he wouldn't tell his neigbour the greatest news he could ever hear?It is the obvious conclusion to the meaning of your words. Did I hear you correctly?
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2007,03:38) JW's, including me, go to people everywhere BECAUSE of what Jesus has commanded.
Saying that I am “following” JW's doesn't make sense here, because JW's are following Jesus command. That is why they share the Bible message with everyone.
david.Vacuum Cleaner salesmen do the same thing. They go from door to door to sell vacuum cleaners and I know that encyclopaedia organisations like Brittanica use to as well.
But guess what? Even the pharisees went to great measures to gain a convert.
The method doesn't prove your organisation is the body of Christ david. Surely a spiritually minded person wouldn't accept your carnal argument would they? Lets be real here.
If we look at methods alone, then perhaps we would have concluded that the pharisees were the true organisation. But Jesus knew better than that. HE KNEW THEIR HEARTS.
Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.Do not the JWs travel over land and sea to win a single convert? Is this not what you keep saying david?
Yet what does it prove?
It is certainly not any reason to make in proving that the JWs are the Body of Christ.
Come on. We are not as silly as you may think. You are fighting in an arena with weapons made of wood and stone. But the weapons that God gives us are much more powerful and can bring down strongholds.
Surely others can see right through to your motives david, but I would hope that many here wouldn't be swayed in their faith and understanding and choose to go back to prison once the truth has set them free.
I couldn't imagine anyone who is free wanting to join up with a prison. But I do admit that people can be bewitched.
But seriously david, do you honestly expect everyone or even someone here to say, “oh the Body of Christ is the Jehovah Witnesses and the true prophet is the Watchtower”. “I know this because they go from door to door like vacumm cleaner salesmen trying to gain a convert.
Come on david, do you really expect that to happen?
Quote (david @ Feb. 23 2007,08:38) Quote “But you shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the utermost part of the earth”. They as well as we need the Holy Ghost in order to be his witnesses.
Yes, for a certainty, one needs the holy spirit to carry out this work.Quote If you do not have a personal relationship with God, how can you be a witness for him. You might testify of what you have heard or what the bible states or of what you believe because of God's creation, but you can not share that you know through personal experience that God is a reality and that the testimony of his Son is true. I'm not sure what you're implying. But if you want to talk about being kicked out of wills over the good news, having Bible's torn up because of the good news, having family members reject you, I could discuss these things.
Hi David:According to JW's website, “The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God”.
This seems to imply that only these are born again believers, and on occasion you and other JWs who have participated in this forum have given me the indication that you have not been born again, and if this is true, then you are not Christians, and that is what I am saying to you. And the reason that I am saying this to you, is that if you are not born again you can be and I want God's best for you and your family. Salvation is a gift from God.
Also JW website states that they believe that “Baptism by complete immersion symbolizes dedication”. Confessing Jesus as your Lord indicates dedication. Baptism by complete immersion is symbolic of a person's union with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection. A person who has been bapized has died to sin and separation from God, and has been raised from the dead even as Jesus was raised from the dead by the Holy Ghost to the newness of life in Christ Jesus or in other words, the person has been born again.
Col. 2:12 states: “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hat he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses:…”.
Romans 6:3-11 states: “Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him, for in that he died, he died unto sin once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise recon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord”.
And so, if I am asking you David have you been born again? And David if you were to die today, are you certain that you are saved what is your response?
God Bless
Hi 94
You say
” Confessing Jesus as your Lord indicates dedication. “What of the need for repentance?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2007,03:11) Hi 94
You say
” Confessing Jesus as your Lord indicates dedication. “What of the need for repentance?
Yes, Nick:Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
When you confess Jesus as Lord, you are indicating by your confession that you will strive to obey his commandments. The act of baptism should be a work showing that you have repented.
God Bless
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