Monotheism is scripture&#39;s theme.

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,05:11)

Hi TT,
At the end does not Jesus hand the kingdom back to the Father?[1Cor15]

Hi NH

And yet we read…

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7

So do you think that when all things are subject to Jesus and when he subjects himself to the Father, all things will no longer be subject to him?

Scriptures say.. “Of the increase of his government and peace “There Shall Be No End”, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever”

Does this disappoint you? Will it sadden you to find out that you will worship Jesus the King of Kings forever and ever?

June 23, 2009 at 3:19 pm#134330

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:51)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03)

WorshippingJesus said:

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This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all.

WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.

thinker

Thinker,

You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.

bd,
I believe in one true Elohim as opposed to many. Elohim is plural and has been shown. I don't believe in two Gods anymore then you believe in two Lords assuming that you confess both the Father and the Son as Lord. They constitute one Lord. Right or wrong?

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Man and woman are a pair, right. There unity is not in number

If their unity is not in number then there is no unity of which to speak.

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm#134332

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ June 23 2009,08:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2009,11:21)

Hi PD

d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t

aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish

If your material is borrowed and edited, then isn't it fair to show the source and give credit where credit is due?

Hopefully this is not the case.

BTW thanks for your concern for my wife. But I did thank everyone for the prayers and gave a report of her progress after the surgery in the prayer thread. She is doing fine, but just sore.

Blessings WJ

Don't go totally phony on me WJ.

I have been developing my own work for over sixty years. Why would you expect all Monotheists to post different position references when trinitarians all copy from the same source?

Get real.

If you have any brains at all, you will begin with point one, and show from scripture why it can't be so. Otherwise, quit bellyaching. If you can't rebutt the issues, get off the thread.

I am tired of your constant attempt to discredit through slander. You have NO REASON for your constant discrediting attitude, other than your own inability to cope with the issues.

Hi PD

Here is the thing. There is nothing in my post that accuses you of anything.

Read it carefully and stop falsly accussing me.

We are not talking about commentaries or concordances or dictionarys here are we?

And besides most of the time I do post my source.

I find it interesting that your post is very similar to the link that I posted.

So my question was…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2009,11:21)

d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t

aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish

Now if it is a problem for me to ask a question about your post then OK, but how dare you to turn a question about your post around on me and accuse me falsly and insinuate that I am being phony.

Ask me any question about my sources you want, and I will promise I won't get all defensive and start accusing you falsly of being phony or disengenuous.

Let the readers judge for themselves. Check the sight out for your self. If you say that your post is your own, then fine.

But your accusation against me is false!

Further more if you keep making patronizing, and condescending statements like this…

Quote (Paladin @ June 23 2009,08:05)

“If you have any brains at all“, you will begin with point one, and show from scripture why it can't be so.

then I will not continue to have dialogue with this sort of arrogance.

But then maybe that is what you want! But I will continue to expose what I believe to be error. It is possible for a man to be decieved for 60 years.

June 23, 2009 at 3:43 pm#134336

Paladin

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,12:23)

Paladin said:

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BECAUSE JEHOVAH ESTABLISHES HIMSELF TO BE A FIRST-PERSON-SINGULAR IDENTITY
1) Gen 17:1
God establishes his identity for Abraham, as Moses recorded; “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, {H} Jehovah [the LORD] appeared to Abram, and said unto him, {G} egw eimi o` theos sou ; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”[Gen 17:1]

Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi is first-person-singular verb “am”

And Abraham is addressed as a singular-person entity.
sou is second person-singular pronoun “you”

Paladin accepts what he likes and throws out the rest of scripture. Jehovah also referred to Himself in the first person plural.

Quote

And Jehovah said…Come, let US go down and there confuse their language (Gen. 11:5-7)

Paladin should have checked the Greek Septuagint here.

Paladin said:

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BECAUSE GOD ASSERTS HE IS A SINGLE PERSON BEING
2) Exo 3:14
A “being” who used “first-person-singular” pronouns to describe himself in Exo 3:14 –

This has been answered several tmes already. In Genesis 1 we see that God speaks of Himself both in the singular and in the plural. He speaks about “Adam” in this way too. Here is another example from Scripture,

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Let Israel rejoice in His maker. Let the children of Zion be joyful in their king (Psalm 149:2)

Israel is referred to both in the singular and in the plural. To deny the presence of plural unity in the Scriptures is deliberate.

thinker

Please post the plural form of “Jehovah.”

June 23, 2009 at 3:56 pm#134337

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 23 2009,22:49)

God is all that exists. Everything that is came from God the source of all. There can only be ONE! Jesus said he was ONE with God and prayed that we all would rise up through the Truth into ONENESS with them. Where there is ONE there is not two.There are billions of aspects of ONE but only ONE source of life! We are all in and from God finding the light of Truth to go home in God. We never left God. Only in our mind can we believe that for some reason you could be separated from God. Yet in Truth, everything is inclusive. There is no time or distance in the spirit. No up or down just an interconnection with the mind of God and returning to the source of love where we all came from. Higher and lower thought waves. Rising up is partaking of higher thought transfers in different dimensions. We all came from the top. Can we return? Peace, TK

(41) That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them – as to which of them are best in conduct.
( سورة الكهف , Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #7)

(18) To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #48)

(20) Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) reality: Is not His the command? and He is the swiftest in taking account.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #62)

(49) Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return.
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #35)

June 23, 2009 at 3:57 pm#134338

Participant

Paladin said:

Quote

Please post the plural form of “Jehovah.”

Paladin,
I did NOT say that Jehovah had a plural form. I said this:

Quote

Jehovah also referred to Himself in the first person plural.

Then I gave Genesis 11:5-7:

Quote

And Jehovah said…Come, let US go down and there confuse their language (Gen. 11:5-7)

You get easily hurt when you think you are being misrepresented. Yet you misrepresented what I said. I said that Jehovah “refers to Himself in the first person plural.” I did NOT say that Jehovah was a plural name.

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 4:02 pm#134339

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,03:19)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:51)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03)

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.

thinker

Thinker,

You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Man and woman are a pair, right. There unity is not in number

If their unity is not in number then there is no unity of which to speak.

thinker

How many beings are 1 man and 1 woman?

Unity of Purpose and possession is not rank of Authority

For the Man is the head of the woman and Christ is the head of the church and God is the head of Christ yet they are all One but YHWH is ONE SOVEREIGN GOD not you, me or Christ are equal in rank or authority,

June 23, 2009 at 4:12 pm#134340

Participant

bodhitharta said:

Quote

bd,
YHWH simply means “I Am” or “I shall be.” The Hebrew “Adonai” means “SOVEREIGN GOD.” Christ is Adonai,

Quote

YHWH said to my Sovereign, “Sit thou at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool….Adonai is at your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5)

The Sovereign God (Adonai) sits at YHWH's right hand!

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 4:48 pm#134342

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,04:12)

bodhitharta said:

Quote

bd,
YHWH simply means “I Am” or “I shall be.” The Hebrew “Adonai” means “SOVEREIGN GOD.” Christ is Adonai,

Quote

YHWH said to my Sovereign, “Sit thou at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool….Adonai is at your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5)

The Sovereign God (Adonai) sits at YHWH's right hand!

thinker

There is only One God but I could see why it has become so perplexing for you, its because of the ambiguous nature of the NT but The Quran clarifies all this.

The Quran agrees and corresponds completely with the words of Jesus who's mission it was to Glorify God on earth and he completed that Job. Jesus said he finished his mission and that was before the cross.

June 23, 2009 at 4:48 pm#134343

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,12:02)

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,03:19)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:51)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03)

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.

thinker

Thinker,

You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Man and woman are a pair, right. There unity is not in number

If their unity is not in number then there is no unity of which to speak.

thinker

How many beings are 1 man and 1 woman?

Unity of Purpose and possession is not rank of Authority

Hi BD

Then please explain how 2 beings can be one flesh.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

The body of Christ is one Body but many members, is it not?

And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. 1 Cor 12:19, 20

June 23, 2009 at 4:56 pm#134344

Participant

What I find odd is that some of you here have to resort to studying hebrew, greek, and aramaic to try to get a grasp on understanding your own religion the funny part is that the Jews have had a 4000 year headstart in understanding their own language and yet they were never told or understood there to ever have been a trinity or God in the flesh doctrine.

God is not the author of confusion so why isn't there an across the board Christian belief here about who is and who is not God. No Muslim is so confused, not one. I am a Christian and a Muslim

June 23, 2009 at 5:01 pm#134345

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2009,04:48)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,12:02)

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,03:19)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:51)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03)

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.

thinker

Thinker,

You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Man and woman are a pair, right. There unity is not in number

If their unity is not in number then there is no unity of which to speak.

thinker

How many beings are 1 man and 1 woman?

Unity of Purpose and possession is not rank of Authority

Hi BD

Then please explain how 2 beings can be one flesh.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

The body of Christ is one Body but many members, is it not?

And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. 1 Cor 12:19, 20

To be one flesh is to be united and to be one body is to be united.

Do you understand Allegory?

al·le·go·ry (l-gôr, -gr) KEY

NOUN:
pl. al·le·go·ries

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

June 23, 2009 at 5:10 pm#134347

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2009,04:48)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,12:02)

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,03:19)

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 23 2009,13:51)

Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03)

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.

thinker

Thinker,

You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Man and woman are a pair, right. There unity is not in number

If their unity is not in number then there is no unity of which to speak.

thinker

How many beings are 1 man and 1 woman?

Unity of Purpose and possession is not rank of Authority

Hi BD

Then please explain how 2 beings can be one flesh.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

The body of Christ is one Body but many members, is it not?

And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. 1 Cor 12:19, 20

To be one flesh is to be united and to be one body is to be united.

Do you understand Allegory?

al·le·go·ry (l-gôr, -gr) KEY

NOUN:
pl. al·le·go·ries

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

Hi BD

Those scriptures are not allegorys.

But I understand that you cannot see the “Plurality of Unity” found in the scriptures.

You cannot mix oil and water, no more than you can mix a muslim with a Christian.

June 23, 2009 at 5:47 pm#134350

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 24 2009,04:48)

Quote (thethinker @ June 24 2009,04:12)

bodhitharta said:

Quote

bd,
YHWH simply means “I Am” or “I shall be.” The Hebrew “Adonai” means “SOVEREIGN GOD.” Christ is Adonai,

Quote

YHWH said to my Sovereign, “Sit thou at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool….Adonai is at your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5)

The Sovereign God (Adonai) sits at YHWH's right hand!

thinker

There is only One God but I could see why it has become so perplexing for you, its because of the ambiguous nature of the NT but The Quran clarifies all this.

You cannot reply to the inspired Scriptures I present so you give me the Quran instead.

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 5:47 pm#134351

Lightenup

Participant

Hi Bo,
As I understand it, Muslims have to do good works to gain eternal life and that their good works need to outweigh their bad works, Christians rest in the Lord Jesus's work to gain eternal life and while resting in Him, He serves others through them.

Heb 4:10-11
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
NASU

I think of it like this, before entering into Christ's rest we were workers so that we may be glorified, after entering Christ's rest we become servants with an attitude of allowing GOD to serve others through us so that GOD may be glorified.

I think the mindset is different. Possibly Muslims work in order to gain whereas the mindset of the Christian is to serve without expecting anything. Christians have the assurance of salvation in that Christ paid their price for salvation to those who acknowledge that He did indeed pay the price which was the shedding of blood, bearing our sin leading to His death on the cross, and the resurrection. Muslims do not acknowledge that as I understand it.

Muslims can't do both…acknowledge the shedding of Jesus's blood, death and resurrection and not acknowledge the shedding of Jesus's blood, death, and resurrection. That is impossible. So, I don't believe that a person can be both Muslim and Christian. IMO

Just some thoughts there,
Kathi

June 23, 2009 at 5:51 pm#134352

Participant

WorshipingJesus said to bodhitharta:

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The body of Christ is one Body but many members, is it not?

And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. 1 Cor 12:19, 20

WJ,
Excellent point!

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 6:07 pm#134354

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 24 2009,04:56)

God is not the author of confusion so why isn't there an across the board Christian belief here about who is and who is not God. No Muslim is so confused, not one. I am a Christian and a Muslim

bd,
The Jews had more of a concept of plural unity in reference to God than you want to admit. When Jesus claimed that God was His own Father they wanted to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). And when Caiaphas the high priest heard Jesus say that He would sit on the right hand of power he tore of his clothes signifying that Jesus had blasphemed (Matt. 26:64).

Why would Caiaphas accuse Jesus of blasphemy for saying that He would sit at the right hand of power? Maybe because Caiaphas knew that it was Adonai who would sit there and Adonai was God,

Quote

YHWH said to my Sovereign, “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool….Adonai (God) is at Your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5)

Okay, so David identifies the One at YHWH's right hand as Adonai (or God). Jesus tells Caiaphas that He would sit at the right hand of power. Then Caiaphas tears off his clothes and accuses of Jesus of blasphemy. Yet you tell us that the Jews never understood their God to be a plural unity. Wasn't Moses a Jew? Did he not say of Elohim, “Let US make man in OUR image?”

thinker

June 23, 2009 at 6:18 pm#134357