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My NIV notes say: A royal psalm, it was originally composed for the coronation of Davidic kings, in the light of the Lord's covenant with David. Later, prophetic words….future redemption of his people through an exalted royal son of David…….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,00:35) Hi not3,
Monogenes is poorly translated “only begotten” as it has nothing to do with birth.
He was begotten of God alone in the beginning.
All the other sons were created through him.
NHScripture that says he was begotten before his natural birth please?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,05:14) Hi not3,
You misunderstand.
Ps 2, the most known and versatile OT verse.7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
NHYou are missleading.
Ps 2:
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “this day have I begotten thee”.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
“Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel”.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.Ps 2 is post ressurection.
If Jesus was declared a Son before the creation then according to Pss 2 who would he have spoken to in wrath and, who would he be King over and, who would he break with a rod of Iron?
And what about the heathen that God is gonna give him “that day”?
Rev 19:5
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,00:35) Hi not3,
Monogenes is poorly translated “only begotten” as it has nothing to do with birth.
He was begotten of God alone in the beginning.
All the other sons were created through him.
NH“Only Begotten”, Greek, 'Monogenes' which means;
1)single of its kind, only
a)used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
Simply put, he is “Unique” only of its kind.
God as a Father and human as a mother.
WJ wrote:
Ps 2 is post ressurection.
***************************
WJ, thank you for adding this bit of insight according to your understanding. This helps me!
Hi not3,
Psalm 2 is one of the most amazing scriptures.
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Set initially in the times of the end of the Millenium whan satan is set free and turns the world rulers against Christ
Rev 20
“5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. “
It is loved and remembered and used by Paul and the writer of Hebrews in all sorts of contexts.
Acts 13:33
33that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'
Hebrews 1:5
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?Hebrews 5
5So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”;Nick – oh, my goodness! I had forgotten about the passage in Acts as it relates to Ps. 2. This is exciting. I'm going to study this tonight. Thank you so much!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2007,06:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2007,05:14) Hi not3,
You misunderstand.
Ps 2, the most known and versatile OT verse.7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
NHYou are missleading.
Ps 2:
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “this day have I begotten thee”.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
“Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel”.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.Ps 2 is post ressurection.
If Jesus was declared a Son before the creation then according to Pss 2 who would he have spoken to in wrath and, who would he be King over and, who would he break with a rod of Iron?
And what about the heathen that God is gonna give him “that day”?
Rev 19:5
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Yes, you are quite correct WJ, this passage is manifestly eschatological. It has an end time context. And another thing to consider about Psalm 2:7….“Thou art my Son; “this day have I begotten thee”
Did “days” exist before time began? Not according to Genesis chapter one. It's also interesting to see how Paul understands this verse (Acts 13:33) Clearly this is not an allusion to a pre-incarnate begettal……
Nick wrote:
Hi not3,
Monogenes is poorly translated “only begotten” as it has nothing to do with birth.
He was begotten of God alone in the beginning.
All the other sons were created through him.Not 3 wrote:
God can create alone, but he cannot “beget” alone. Are you saying that “only begotten” is really not the proper translation? I want to be clear.**********************************
Hi Nick, we got a bit off subject, so I want to come back to this between you and I. Um, we left it that you believe that “only begotten” in the bible has “nothing to do with birth.” I find this so hard to believe. It shakes the very foundation of the virgin birth story. For Jesus is called the “only begotten” AFTER his human birth – not – before? Can you explain a little more? Thanks.Oh, thanks Nick for explaining MORE – ha!
And what exactly does “topical” mean?I looked up 1 John 4. What are you trying to say, that “Jesus came in the flesh” and that means that he wasn't born once? Or that because he “came in the flesh” he wasn't BORN? I'm confused on where you stand with this. Clarify if you wish. Thanks.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,17:11) Oh, thanks Nick for explaining MORE – ha! And what exactly does “topical” mean?I looked up 1 John 4. What are you trying to say, that “Jesus came in the flesh” and that means that he wasn't born once? Or that because he “came in the flesh” he wasn't BORN? I'm confused on where you stand with this. Clarify if you wish. Thanks.
Hi Not3in1,It took me a while to figure out that “topical” thing as well.
Whenever something is brought up in a thread that has an existing thread that discusses that thing in depth.
Nick will bring that thread to the top by posting that it is topical. A topic that is of interest.I know you asked Nick, but I couldn't control myself.
I was so proud that I finally figured it out.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,22:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,17:11) Oh, thanks Nick for explaining MORE – ha! And what exactly does “topical” mean?I looked up 1 John 4. What are you trying to say, that “Jesus came in the flesh” and that means that he wasn't born once? Or that because he “came in the flesh” he wasn't BORN? I'm confused on where you stand with this. Clarify if you wish. Thanks.
Hi Not3in1,It took me a while to figure out that “topical” thing as well.
Whenever something is brought up in a thread that has an existing thread that discusses that thing in depth.
Nick will bring that thread to the top by posting that it is topical. A topic that is of interest.I know you asked Nick, but I couldn't control myself.
I was so proud that I finally figured it out.
Tim
I thought he was doing that to keep the thread alive 
Tim and Ken – thanks guy! Ha! Now I get it! I just thought he meant that it wasn't any big deal and it was a surface-type of thing. Ha! Oh, well, the many misunderstandings of “Nick.” He so misunderstood…….Ha! And loved
Without Nick, a lot of topics would die. he keeps them well stirred.Hi not3,
The unique monogenes son begotten of God was through whom all creation came. A spirit being like to God and similar to the other sons of God agreed to serve his greater Father and come in flesh partaking of our dust nature, a body being prepared for him through Mary and God's Spirit.Nick, I've been sitting here reading your post over, and over again. Trying to put my finger on what, I feel, is wrong with this idea of Mary being a surragate mother only – and Jesus existing as a spirit person before his birth.
And it came to me. If Jesus had already existed and was a complete “person,” in whatever form (spirit of physical), his birth through Mary was not a BIRTH at all. Not as defined in Webster's Dictionary. And not as defined in every humans heart and mind on earth!
In fact, the Jesus you know, would have to be “re-incarnated.” Re-incarnation is a soul that has lived before, and is re-born into a new body – but has the same soul. Essentially, this is what you believe of Jesus, isn't it?
Spirit Person in heaven
Uses the body of Mary only as a way of being re-born physically
Jesus is the incarnation of a previous soul that existed in heaven prior to human birthIs this right?
I'm getting closer, I believe, to fully grasping your belief. It takes me a while. Thanks for your patients.Not3, wouldn't re-incarnation require a death first? The Logos did not die at the incarnation – Ha!
I've been waiting for an opportunity to use a “Ha!”….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2007,17:21) Not3, wouldn't re-incarnation require a death first? The Logos did not die at the incarnation – Ha! I've been waiting for an opportunity to use a “Ha!”….
If He didn't die, what did He do?
He disappeared from the presence of God or why would He
ask to be taken back in His previous glory? If that is what Jn 17:5 is saying.I am trying to understand the logic of a pre-existing Jesus as well. The way you guys are describing it, Jesus was not born, He merely emptied His God abilities and jumped into Mary to come out through her birth canal as Jesus.
I agree with Not3in1. That is not a birth. It is more like what the creature did in the alien movie.
Tim
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