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Quote Hi david,
You always seem to start topics that lead around to you being able to preach JW doctrines.
I don't remember doing that. But if you remember the last couple weeks, I have been talking about preaching and you mentioned a few times that there should be miracles. It was YOU who prompted me to start this thread. Plus, although we have discussed miracles on here, I was pretty sure there was no thread on this subject.JOHN 14:12
“Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father.”He will do greater works than I do, becauses I am going my way to the Father….
Jesus would not be around to continue on in the work he started. Without question, the primary work Jesus did was the preaching of the good news of the kingdom, without question. He wasn't known as a healer, or a miracle worker, but was called “teacher.”Jesus preaching was limited in territory, time and extent.
But, things would change:
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””More people in a much larger area over a much greater time.
The last century has witnessed the ingathering of the greatest number of dedicated, faithful servants of Jehovah in history. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:9, 10) What magnificent evidence of Jehovah’s power!—Isaiah 60:22.
Sorry, Phoenix. I had to go. I didn't get a chance to read any more than the first sentence of your post before. continuing on, you say:
Quote Not a lot of people are going to believe that this person is a miracle unless they see these things with their own eyes and experience it.
True, it's easier to be deceived in person. There is no “slow motion.” You can't watch it over and over again.Quote But anyway, here is something someone told me in another forum when I posted a similar question on the board. And I pretty much agree with this person. I would say to any believer, healing was a demonstration for unbelievers, miraculous gifts opened the unbeliever's eyes.
1. God does the healing not man
2. It is a two-way thing the victim and the servant have to come together in faith, just like the Beggar at the Gate Beautiful Peter and John were full of the holy spirit, if you read the scriptures it says that Peter gazed at the man, the man gazed at Peter, he pereived that he had the faith to be healed, it was a two way thing, both had faith and the man was healed.3. Unbelief can stop your healing i.e. Believers running left and right seeking the man and woman of God for their healing.
4. Yet with all the faith in the world, not everybody will be healed.
1. Yes, when it comes to miracles. Although the methods of modern healers today do show that the mind can play a big part. If a woman truly believes she is pregnant, (and isn't) she will begin to show signs of pregnancy. We're still trying to figure out all the mysteries of the mind.
2,3,4
It was important that the one performing the cure have full faith and confidence in Jehovah and acknowledge, as Jesus did, that the curing was accomplished by God’s power. (Mt 17:14-20; Joh 5:19) It was not necessary, however, for the afflicted ones to have faith before being cured. (Joh 5:5-9, 13) Many, though, did have strong faith.—Mt 8:5-13; 15:28; Mr 5:34; Lu 7:1-10; 17:19; Ac 14:8-10Quote God gives and he takes away and although it is easier said than done, we need to live our every day as though it is our last. We need to build a relationship with God irrespective of our circumstances. Talk to some of the people on this site who are crippled and suffer pain every day but yet their faith in God is stronger than the believer who seems to have everything going for them. I believe that in times when we are desperate, we can look to man and not to God.
ON your last words here, there is nothing wrong with going to a doctor for medical help. Do you know that there are people on here who are 'crippled and suffer pain' as you say? I was unaware of this. I agree with much of what you say in this paragraph.dave
Quote Hi david,
You baldly state
“Most basic, they helped to establish or confirm the fact that a man was receiving power and support from God. (Ex 4:1-9)Jesus’ miracles helped observers to identify him as that one. (De 18:18; Joh 6:14)
When Christianity was young, miracles worked in conjunction with the message to help individuals to see that God was behind Christianity and had turned from the earlier Jewish system of things. (Heb 2:3, 4)
In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.”
Do you have any scriptural backing for this statement that the gifts ended after the first century?
Did the Holy Spirit change in nature?Hey nick, first off, being that I am not bald, I cannot “baldly” state anything.
You state that the “Holy Spirit” apparently “changein nature” if the miraculous gifts were to end. But we DO KNOW that at some point in time they would end or have ended. So, your connecting the idea of these gifts changing with the idea that the holy spirit is changing or can't change is wrong thinking.Quote While it is true that the magicians seemly duplicated many of the miracles that were done by God through Moses. These were merely delusions, and not real miracles at all.
Yes I know. Interestingly, there are magicians or fakers in some parts of that world that happen to know that if you hold the head of certain kinds of snakes back, the snake stays ridgid, like a pole. You let the snake go and drop it to the ground and it appears to come alive, as if turning into a snake. I'm not saying that's how those men against moses did that, but it's interesting. Certain birds too, tend to go into an almost trance like state when you hold their head back. You have to shake them for them to wake up.Quote And the scripture warns us that there will be false prophets in these last days, but there is no magician who can open the eyes of the blind as Jesus did in John 9:13-33. These types of miracles only God can do.
Again, I agree. It's important to note that Jesus could heal anything.
Science and the Paranormal, Dr. William Nolen claims that “about 80 percent of the patients who come to [an orthodox physician] have self-limited diseases—that is, diseases from which they will recover spontaneously.”
With the passage of time, therefore, a faith healer can easily take credit for the cure.People remember the miraclulous, a person supposedly being healed. People forget the normal, a person not being healed. So despite the fact that so many people could expereince nothing, when one does happen to get better, which may happen anyway, it is “amazing” to some.
Sorry, I just keep thinking about things that Phoneix said and want to add something:
Did Jesus demand that a sick person have faith before he would heal him? The answer is no. Faith was needed on the part of the healer but not necessarily on the part of the sick person. On one occasion Jesus’ disciples failed to cure an epileptic boy. Jesus healed the boy and afterward told the disciples why they had been unable to heal him. “He said to them: ‘Because of YOUR little faith.’”—Matthew 17:14-20.
According to Matthew 8:16, 17, Jesus “cured all who were faring badly.” True, these people had a measure of belief in Jesus that caused them to approach him. (Matthew 8:13; 9:22, 29) In most cases they had to come and ask before he healed them. However, no confession of faith was required for the miracle to be performed. On one occasion Jesus healed a lame man who did not even know who Jesus was. (John 5:5-9, 13)Quote The gifts of the Spirit are given to those who will use them with love as the motivation. James 5:14-15 states: “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of Faith shall save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up: and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”
Notice, though, that the apostle Paul’s fellow worker Epaphroditus became sick nearly to the point of death. (Philippians 2:25-27) Paul’s close companion Timothy likewise suffered “frequent cases of sickness.” (1 Timothy 5:23) Yet, Paul did not cure either of these men miraculously. And when Paul needed medical attention himself, he may have used the services of Luke, “the beloved physician,” who traveled with him.—Colossians 4:14.
I've always looked at that scrpture in James as speaking of being spirtually sick. It speaks of sinning a lot and getting healed from you sins.
The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong (Volume VI, page 320) observes that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.”
Paul indicated that supernatural gifts would “be done away with.” (1 Corinthians 13:8) Such gifts were passed on only directly by or in the presence of Christ Jesus’ apostles. (Acts 8:18-20; 10:44-46; 19:6) After the death of the apostles, miraculous manifestations ceased.
Quote There will be no need for healings once we have received our spiritual body, but until then as long as people get sick, God is interested in their well being.
He is most interested in our spiritual well being and our relationship with him.Quote Take care that you don't attribute something that God is doing through his servant by His Spirit to the spirit of the devil. God Bless
Thankyou for your concern and the wise advice. But I'm certain that Sai Baba and Benny Hinn (who are the only one's I've so far really said were fakes) are indeed fakes.Hi david,
Even Christ could not do miracles without the support of faith.
Human religion kills faith.Hi P,
Matthew 13:58
And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief
Mark 6:5
And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.Hi David:
What I have found in my walk with the Lord, is that sometimes he indeed uses doctors to accomplish the healing, but what I do when I am sick, is to call the elders of the chruch and ask for their prayer as the word of God instructs us in James 5:14-15, and so, my faith is in God for the healing and not in the doctor even if the doctor is used by God to accomplish the healing.
God created the immune system and so he can heal you through it, he can heal you through a doctor, he can show you what to do in order for you to get healed, or he can heal you miraculously. But if we don't apply the word of God to our daily lives, do we really trust God to do what he has indicated?
Undoubtedly, there will be those who may pretend to have the gift of healing, but that does not mean that God has ceased to do these miracles. I am not the judge, but I know that God will deal with all liars.
God Bless
Hi Nick
Im kinda thinking of looking at Jesus as… being MORE than he actually showed us. You see I believe he was capable of doing more than what we know. (In regards to his transfiguration) However, the question that is going over in my head right now.. is why did he do this? What was he trying to tell or show us by healing a few people. Or doing a few miracles.
HUgs
PhoenixHi Nick
Quote Hi P,
How could Jesus be our God
if he COULD NOT DO MIRACLES?
So much for trinity!But I think he could do more… he chose not to though.
Just a thought
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
His transfiguration was a work of the Father glorifying the Son again for the sake of the observers IMHO.Quote What I have found in my walk with the Lord, is that sometimes he indeed uses doctors to accomplish the healing, but what I do when I am sick, is to call the elders of the chruch and ask for their prayer as the word of God instructs us in James 5:14-15, and so, my faith is in God for the healing and not in the doctor even if the doctor is used by God to accomplish the healing. Hi 94.
Wondering what your comments are on this scripture:1 TIMOTHY 5:23
“Do not drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.”The scriptures do not rule out as objectionable all consulting of and treatment by physicians. Paul called the faithful Christian Luke “the beloved physician.”—Col 4:14.
Im also reminded of this scripture, dealing with the psychosomatic principle:
Proverbs 17:22 states: “A heart that is joyful does good as a curer, but a spirit that is stricken makes the bones dry.”Quote God created the immune system and so he can heal you through it, he can heal you through a doctor, he can show you what to do in order for you to get healed, or he can heal you miraculously.
Yes, I have always though thought of God as being more concerned with spiritual healing.
ISAIAH 19:22
“And Jehovah will certainly deal Egypt a blow. There will be a dealing of a blow and a healing; and they must return to Jehovah, and he must let himself be entreated by them and must heal them.”ISAIAH 57:17-19
““At the erroneousness of his unjust gain I grew indignant, and I proceeded to strike him, concealing [my face], while I was indignant. But he kept walking as a renegade in the way of his heart. I have seen his very ways; and I began to heal him and conduct him and make compensation with comfort to him and to his mourning ones.” “I am creating the fruit of the lips. Continuous peace there will be to the one that is far away and to the one that is near,” Jehovah has said, “and I will heal him.””JEREMIAH 33:6
“‘Here I am bringing up for her a recuperation and health; and I will heal them and reveal to them an abundance of peace and truth.”But I may be getting off topic.
Quote What was he trying to tell or show us by healing a few people.
Hi P.
I think his healing went along with his more important work of preaching the good news of the kingdom. The healing he did showed on a small scale what God's kingdom will bring to mankind.
In the Gospel accounts, Jesus was frequently addressed as “Teacher” but never as “Healer.”Mainly it was to establish his identity as the promised Messiah.
When John the Baptizer was jailed unjustly, he wanted assurance that he had accomplished what God had sent him to do. He dispatched his own disciples to Jesus and asked: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?” Note what Jesus told John’s disciples:“Go your way and report to John what you are hearing and seeing: The blind are seeing again, and the lame are walking about, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, and the dead are being raised up, and the poor are having the good news declared to them.”—Matthew 11:2-5.
But I do think that another reason these things were done was to forshadow what was to come:
REVELATION 21:4
“And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.””
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