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There is already a thread on speaking in tongues. But I think there should be one on MIRACLES. Specifically, in the Christian congregation.
Here's a question to get us started:
Why did the early Christians perform miracles?Most basic, they helped to establish or confirm the fact that a man was receiving power and support from God. (Ex 4:1-9)
Jesus’ miracles helped observers to identify him as that one. (De 18:18; Joh 6:14)
When Christianity was young, miracles worked in conjunction with the message to help individuals to see that God was behind Christianity and had turned from the earlier Jewish system of things. (Heb 2:3, 4)
In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.
****
In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, we see that Jehovah’s spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19)
In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24)It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort.
In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand.
So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.
A DIFFERENT SITUATION TODAY:
We do not see God performing such miracles by the hands of his Christian servants today, because all needed things are present and available to the literate population of the world.
It is not necessary for God to perform such miracles at this time to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants.Even if God were to continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not even all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings. (Joh 12:9-11)
On the other hand, scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things.—2Pe 3:1-10; Re chaps 18, 19.Who else can add?
I guess I will:
Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
Matt. 7:15-23: “Be on the watch for the false prophets . . . Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works [“miracles,” JB, NE, TEV] in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work [“all kinds of miracles,” JB] and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
Is miraculous healing in our day done by means of the spirit of God?
Can the ability to perform miracles come from a source other than the true God?
Moses and Aaron appeared before Pharaoh of Egypt to request that Israel be allowed to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to Jehovah. As evidence of divine backing, Moses directed Aaron to throw down his rod and it became a big snake. That miracle was done by God’s power. But then the magic-practicing priests of Egypt threw down their rods and these, too, became big snakes. (Ex. 7:8-12) By whose power did they perform their miracle?—Compare Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
In the 20th century some faith healing is performed in services conducted by the clergy of Christendom. Among non-Christian religions there are voodoo priests, witch doctors, medicine men, and others who also do healing; they often employ magic and divination. Some “psychic healers” say that their cures have nothing to do with religion. In all these instances, does the healing power come from the true God?
Are the sensational cures of our day performed in the same way as the miraculous cures of Jesus and his early disciples?
Rate of success: “All the crowd were seeking to touch him [Jesus], because power was going out of him and healing them all.” (Luke 6:19) “They brought the sick out even into the broad ways and laid them there upon little beds and cots, in order that, as Peter would go by, at least his shadow might fall upon some one of them. Also, the multitude from the cities around Jerusalem kept coming together, bearing sick people and those troubled with unclean spirits, and they would one and all be cured.” (Acts 5:15, 16) (In our day, do all who go to religious practitioners or to religious shrines seeking a cure get healed?)Cost of services: “Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.” (Matt. 10:8) (Are healers today doing that—giving free, as Jesus commanded?)
Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing?
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?”
(So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)Here's a question that seems to arise on this site every so often:
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”
(Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
(When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong (Volume VI, page 320) observes that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.”
Paul indicated that supernatural gifts would “be done away with.” (1 Corinthians 13:8) Such gifts were passed on only directly by or in the presence of Christ Jesus’ apostles. (Acts 8:18-20; 10:44-46; 19:6) After the death of the apostles, miraculous manifestations ceased.
Hi David.
Maybe we do still see miracles today but believe them to be the work of the Devil. For example…Benny Hinn is supposed to have done healings. Sai Baba materialises things and heals. Yet we are inclined to not believe these miracles are works of the Holy Spirit or God.
Hugs
PhoenixSai Baba seems to be a cheat, or a magician. He can't do miracles. He uses sleight of hand and pychological principles used by magicians to deceive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uknW6mnUuOs
If he was really performing miracles, he wouldn't have to palm the things that are supposed to be appearing out of no where.
Ok, he's not even a very good magician:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZLLT_APTM
Quote Sai Baba materialises things and heals.
No, he doesn't.You can also search “Sai Baba cheating” on youtube and see some clips. He's really not very good.
On Benny Hinn, wickipedia says:
Quote He lives in an ocean-front mansion valued at an estimated $8.5 million. . . .In December 2006, he sent out a mailing asking for donations towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet valued at an estimated $36 million Notice what I said above:
Quote Are the sensational cures of our day performed in the same way as the miraculous cures of Jesus and his early disciples?…
Cost of services: “Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.” (Matt. 10:8) (Are healers today doing that—giving free, as Jesus commanded?)By the way, he cheats too.
Were supernatural signs, or miracles, always necessary to identify those who were chosen and led by God in Bible times?
No.
Miraculous works were not a common occurrence throughout Bible history.
Most persons living in Bible times never witnessed a miracle. The majority of the miracles recorded in the Bible took place during the days of Moses and Joshua (16th and 15th centuries B.C.E.), Elijah and Elisha (10th and 9th centuries B.C.E.), and Jesus and his apostles (1st century C.E.).
Other faithful persons chosen by God for specific purposes, such as Abraham and David, observed or experienced demonstrations of God’s power, but there is no evidence that they performed miracles themselves. (Gen. 18:14; 19:27-29; 21:1-3; compare 2 Samuel 6:21; Nehemiah 9:7.) As to the miraculous gifts present in the first century, the Bible foretold that these would “be done away with.” (1 Cor. 13:8) And this occurred with the passing of the last of the 12 apostles and those who had received the miraculous gifts through them.—Compare Acts 8:14-20.
Hi David
I honestly think that any “miracle worker” in the world today is going to seem a cheat to you. Which makes me wonder why you even started the topic in the first place. Not a lot of people are going to believe that this person is a miracle unless they see these things with their own eyes and experience it.
But anyway, here is something someone told me in another forum when I posted a similar question on the board. And I pretty much agree with this person.
I would say to any believer, healing was a demonstration for unbelievers, miraculous gifts opened the unbeliever's eyes.
1. God does the healing not man
2. It is a two-way thing the victim and the servant have to come together in faith, just like the Beggar at the Gate Beautiful Peter and John were full of the holy spirit, if you read the scriptures it says that Peter gazed at the man, the man gazed at Peter, he pereived that he had the faith to be healed, it was a two way thing, both had faith and the man was healed.3. Unbelief can stop your healing i.e. Believers running left and right seeking the man and woman of God for their healing.
4. Yet with all the faith in the world, not everybody will be healed.
God gives and he takes away and although it is easier said than done, we need to live our every day as though it is our last. We need to build a relationship with God irrespective of our circumstances. Talk to some of the people on this site who are crippled and suffer pain every day but yet their faith in God is stronger than the believer who seems to have everything going for them. I believe that in times when we are desperate, we can look to man and not to God.
Hugs
PhoenixHi david,
You say
“In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.”
Do you have the right to state that the time it would pass away was after the apostles?Hi
Correct me if Im wrong. But I think there was a doctrine for baptism, laying on of hands, the ressurrection of the dead etc?
Hebrews 6:2
2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.So, evidently there was teachings on the laying on of hands (healing) and such as described in Hebrews. So did we lose this teaching?
Hugs
PhoenixHi david,
You baldly state
“Most basic, they helped to establish or confirm the fact that a man was receiving power and support from God. (Ex 4:1-9)Jesus’ miracles helped observers to identify him as that one. (De 18:18; Joh 6:14)
When Christianity was young, miracles worked in conjunction with the message to help individuals to see that God was behind Christianity and had turned from the earlier Jewish system of things. (Heb 2:3, 4)
In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.”
Do you have any scriptural backing for this statement that the gifts ended after the first century?
Did the Holy Spirit change in nature?Hi P,
Men prefer God to not interfere in the organisation and function of their human religion.We were warned about them creeping into houses
2Tim 3
” 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Quote (david @ Mar. 03 2007,06:58) I guess I will: Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
Matt. 7:15-23: “Be on the watch for the false prophets . . . Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works [“miracles,” JB, NE, TEV] in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work [“all kinds of miracles,” JB] and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
Is miraculous healing in our day done by means of the spirit of God?
Can the ability to perform miracles come from a source other than the true God?
Moses and Aaron appeared before Pharaoh of Egypt to request that Israel be allowed to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to Jehovah. As evidence of divine backing, Moses directed Aaron to throw down his rod and it became a big snake. That miracle was done by God’s power. But then the magic-practicing priests of Egypt threw down their rods and these, too, became big snakes. (Ex. 7:8-12) By whose power did they perform their miracle?—Compare Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
In the 20th century some faith healing is performed in services conducted by the clergy of Christendom. Among non-Christian religions there are voodoo priests, witch doctors, medicine men, and others who also do healing; they often employ magic and divination. Some “psychic healers” say that their cures have nothing to do with religion. In all these instances, does the healing power come from the true God?
Are the sensational cures of our day performed in the same way as the miraculous cures of Jesus and his early disciples?
Rate of success: “All the crowd were seeking to touch him [Jesus], because power was going out of him and healing them all.” (Luke 6:19) “They brought the sick out even into the broad ways and laid them there upon little beds and cots, in order that, as Peter would go by, at least his shadow might fall upon some one of them. Also, the multitude from the cities around Jerusalem kept coming together, bearing sick people and those troubled with unclean spirits, and they would one and all be cured.” (Acts 5:15, 16) (In our day, do all who go to religious practitioners or to religious shrines seeking a cure get healed?)Cost of services: “Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.” (Matt. 10:8) (Are healers today doing that—giving free, as Jesus commanded?)
Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing?
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?”
(So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)Here's a question that seems to arise on this site every so often:
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”
(Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
(When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)
Hi David:As I said in my personal testimony, I have done the work of an evangelist using a trac that I prepared over the past 10 years. As I said, I have shared the gospel with people from 54 different countries along with a multitude since then, but I did not say that I only have personal knowledge of two who were actually saved by virture of my ministry. One of these wrote to me telling me about his mother had an inoperable cancer behind her heart. He told me that when his mother was in this condition, he remembered my trac, and he went to God in prayer asking Him to heal his mother. He told me that the cancer disappeared and as a result, he became a Christian.
As I said in my personal testimony, a personal prophecy to me is that I will receive an anointing similar to the Apostle Peter and that anointing was such that when the Apostle Peter walked the street people would bring their sick so that if even Peter's shadow would fall on them, th
ey would be healed. (Acts 5:15-16) Either this prophecy is true or is false. I happen to believe that it is true, but as the old saying goes, “the proof is in the pudding”.While it is true that the magicians seemly duplicated many of the miracles that were done by God through Moses. These were merely delusions, and not real miracles at all. And the scripture warns us that there will be false prophets in these last days, but there is no magician who can open the eyes of the blind as Jesus did in John 9:13-33. These types of miracles only God can do.
The gifts of the Spirit are given to those who will use them with love as the motivation.
James 5:14-15 states: “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of Faith shall save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up: and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”
Is not this scripture still valid? God's Word does not change. If people do not exercise faith in God's Word, of course it won't work for them. There will be no need for healings once we have received our spiritual body, but until then as long as people get sick, God is interested in their well being.
In Mark 3:22 the scripture states speaking of Jesus: “And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, how can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man: and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,but is in danger of eternal damnation: because they said, he hath an unclean spirit”.
Take care that you don't attribute something that God is doing through his servant by His Spirit to the spirit of the devil.
God Bless
Hi Nick
Not sure which of my post you were responding to. But, Yes or No? there was teachings of those things in Hebs 6:2? Have we lost this teaching?
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
Men have developed their own religion and thrown away what they were given. God ever works through His Spirit where there is faith and truth. Hebrews 6 is still the true basis of our faith.Read about the whore in Rev 17-18 according to the meaning of symbolic colours shown in the plan for the Jewish Temple [ex 25-26 etc].
Blue for God
Red for man
Purple for religion-the relationship between God and man.The whore is dressed only in red and purple-man and religion- and there is no blue as God is not involved.
Come out of her my people.Quote
I honestly think that any “miracle worker” in the world today is going to seem a cheat to you.
Name one that isn't. And I'll expose them. I have spent a lifetime studying how people deceive others. The truth is, no one can ever prove under test conditions that they are performing miracles. It is true that some, who are deceiving others actually believe they have certain powers. Wickipedea says that some who do something called “cold reading” (where you say a lot of things hoping some of them will be true and only the right hits are remembered) actually start to think they have certain powers over time. But, they are charlatons. I have literally spent my whole life studying this subject, of how others are deceived in such ways.
What is incredible to the extreme, is that when someone who has been decieving ones in such a way come forward and explain how they are doing it, no one seems to hear it, or want to believe it.Quote Which makes me wonder why you even started the topic in the first place.
Do you think Sai Baba has miraclous powers? Because if he does, why would he have to resort to “palming” and “loading” and misdirection and using large movements to hide smaller ones, etc, things that magicians today commonly use? If he had such powers, he wouldn't have to cheat?He does not have any such powers at all, to the slightest degree.
I started this thread for this purpose, as stated:
Quote Here's a question to get us started:
Why did the early Christians perform miracles?Hi david,
You always seem to start topics that lead around to you being able to preach JW doctrines. But the God I know is a God of mighty power that longs to use in response to faith. Human Religion gives Him no room to work in and destroys faith.Hi:
Jesus said: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father”.
God Bless
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