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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 20 2009,11:04) Hi Thinker Another scripture in 1 John.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
and
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:10
Also if you read writings of the early church Fathers like Ignatious (a disciple of the beloved John), you will see them refering to satan. In fact Ignatious called false teachers ministers of satan.
Blessings WJ
Greetings WJ,
Again, I accept the earlier dating for John's writings. Jesus clearly said that the prince of this world was being cast out NOW,Quote Now is the prince of this world cast out” (John 12:31) You were correct in pointing out that the casting out of satan was future from the standpoint when Jesus spoke. But the word “now” shows that satan's demise was in the NEAR future. Otherwise Jesus was a bit confused about the timing of events.
thinker
Kerwin wrote:
Quote Since you chose to mention James then so will I. James 4:7(KJV) reads:Quote
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin,
James was written before the devil was cast into the lake of fire. James was written about ad44. Satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70.Kerwin said:
Quote This is a laugher as you have just declared the lake of fire, which is the second death, is destroyed by the lake of fire. Do you actually think through this nonsense through before it comes out your mouth? Where did I assert that the first and second death was one and the same?
Kerwin said:
Quote According to your false doctrine it is not necessary to believe as condemnation had been destroyed in the lake of fire in AD 70. When I say that condemnation has been abolished I speak only in reference to the believer. I am NOT a universalist.
thinker
942767 said:
Quote There will be a day of judgment for all of mankind. No way! Jesus said that men are resurrected directly to their reward,
Quote Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth- those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation (John 5;28-29). This clearly says that men are resurrected directly to reward. This means that the judgment had occurred previously. Reward comes AFTER judgment. So the resurrection is directly to reward. God made the judgment through Jesus Christ. Note what Jesus said next,
Quote As I hear I judge; and my judgment is righteous because I seek not my own will (v. 30). Jesus used the present tense, “as I hear I judge”. Christ judged all men in the days of His flesh. All that men await now is their reward.
thinker
Quote (Cindy @ May 20 2009,21:46) thinker Then, according to you, the millennium has already past; was Satan not chained up for a thousand years?
Satan is the last enemy to be destroyed, after Satan is gone, no more sin, no more death.
Satan is still the god of this world, Jesus conquered Satan by conquering sin, by conquering sin he conquered death, by conquering death he conquered the one who had the power over death, Satan.Georg
Georg,
Satan was indeed bound for thousands of years. The Greek “chilias” is plural. It says that satan was bound for thousands of years. This happened when he was cursed in the garden. He remained in chains throughout the entire old testament period. Note that there was no satanic activity after he was cursed in the garden and throughout the entire old testament period. It is not until Christ appeared that we see satanic activity again. The period of Christ was the “little season” when satan was loosed. Christ's parousia in AD70 was when satan was judged and cast into the lake of fire.Georg said:
Quote Jesus has already been crowned King, he just hasn't began to rule yet. Crowned king but doesn't rule?
Your statement is an example of why I have come to reject the traditional, futurist method.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,10:40) WJ said: Quote Hi Thinker To much to respond to right now but I will ask you this…
You keep saying that all this happened in 70AD.
But John did not write the Gospel of John and the Epistles until about 20 – 40 Years after that.
Again John said in one of the last of his writings which was written around 90-110 AD…
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and “THE EVIL ONE CANNOT HARM HIM”. We know that we are children of God, and that “THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE EVIL ONE”. 1 John 5:18, 19
Hi WJ,
My reply is two-fold. First, as a Preterist I accept the earlier dating for John's writings. Go to Preteristarchive.com. It has been a while since I have visited but I am sure you will find some info on the dating of John's writings.Second, John did not say that the evil “one” cannot harm the child of God. He said that “the evil” cannot harm the one who is born of God. He was not referring to satan. The “evil” that could not harm the child of God was the teaching which denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is what is meant by the expression “whosoever is born of God cannot sin”. John did not mean that a Christian is unable to sin. John was not speaking about sin in general. He was speaking about the specific sin of denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is “the wicked [sin]” that cannot harm the child of God while the whole world outside was under the influence of that docetic teaching.
blessings,
thinker
Hi ThinkerI cannot find where any scholar denies the date of 1 John to be earlier than 100-110.
Maybe you can show me some evidence of this.
Besides I believe the “evil one” he speaks of is the “devil” which he also mentions twice in the Epistle.
There are many unanswered questions that hovers over “Preterism”.
Besides, what about the church Fathers like Ignatious who was a disciple of John. They did not believe in Preterism.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,10:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 20 2009,11:04) Hi Thinker Another scripture in 1 John.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
and
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:10
Also if you read writings of the early church Fathers like Ignatious (a disciple of the beloved John), you will see them refering to satan. In fact Ignatious called false teachers ministers of satan.
Blessings WJ
Greetings WJ,Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,10:54) [Again, I accept the earlier dating for John's writings. Jesus clearly said that the prince of this world was being cast out NOW, Quote Now is the prince of this world cast out” (John 12:31) You were correct in pointing out that the casting out of satan was future from the standpoint when Jesus spoke. But the word “now” shows that satan's demise was in the NEAR future. Otherwise Jesus was a bit confused about the timing of events.
thinker
Hi ThinkerQuote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,10:54) Again, I accept the earlier dating for John's writings. Jesus clearly said that the prince of this world was being cast out NOW,
You keep saying that but he was not cast out “Now” according to the Acts and Paul and John.So it must be you missunderstand Jesus words for again he says…
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world “WILL BE DRIVEN OUT”. John 12:31 NET
Did “Now” mean right then when he said the judgment of this world? Did he mean “Now” when he said satan will be driven out?
So if “Now” doesnt mean this moment then it could mean days, months, or years.
Now lets see you prove when that was. If you can't then it could be 1000s of years, and since a 1000 years is a day to the Lord that would not be hard to see.
You are denying the witness of millions that satan is still at work.
Blessings WJ
thinker you have to be kidding, when you say that Satan and his demons are in the Lake of fire. I have never heard of that before; so we are not to worry about him? You better prove that to yurself again. Satan is very much alive here on earth. If He would not, we would not sin, since he is the author of Sin.
Irene
Hi Thinker
The language that John uses shows us that Judicially speaking things can be declared to be that has not yet come to pass.
A couple of examples of this is…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
We know that the “hour to come” is refering to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the recieving of the Spirit of truth. Yet Jesus says that now is the hour.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25
Now we know that the hour to come here is speaking of the resurection in the last day, yet he says “Now is”. This is not a contradiction it simply means that it has a two fold meaning.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:11
As you can see Jesus is saying “Now”, “at this present time” I am no more in the world, yet we know he was in the world.
So we see that “Now” can mean mean more than one thing is happening or going to happen.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. John 17:13
There it is again, we know that Jesus didn't at that moment go to the Father but he did go later.
The problem that I see you have is that yoiu cannot prove that 70Ad was the “Now” Jesus was speaking of.
WJ
WJ said:
Quote I cannot find where any scholar denies the date of 1 John to be earlier than 100-110. WJ,
I have directed you to Preteristarchive.com for info on the dating of John's writings. But let's assume for a moment that your 100-110 dating is correct. It would still mean that satan is not around today for John said “it is the LAST HOUR”,Quote Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour (1 John 2:18) How can satan be around in our time if John and his audience were in the LAST hour whether it was pre-AD70 or AD 110? So your dating even if it be correct does not prove that satan is around in our time.They were in the last hour of the old covenant age. They were looking forward to the eternal new covenant age.
WJ said:
Quote Besides I believe the “evil one” he speaks of is the “devil” which he also mentions twice in the Epistle. Do you believe that Jesus destroyed the works of the devil?
Quote For this reason the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) It has been over two thousand years now and the futurists tell us that satan is still alive and well.
WJ said:
Quote Besides, what about the church Fathers like Ignatious who was a disciple of John. They did not believe in Preterism. There were many church fathers who were Preterists. May I point you to the link I have provided below:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html
150: Justin Martyr – Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew
150: Pseudo Clement: Recognitions
150: Melito – Homily of the Pascha “Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven.” “The battle between Christians and Jews over possession of the name “Israel” goes back to the earliest days of Christianity.. the past-tense verbs found in (Melito's) Peri Pascha 99 may indicate that the author is referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.”
175: Irenaeus – Against Heresies “the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”
185: Clement of Alexandria – The Stromata
198: Tertullian – An Answer to the Jews “among us, who have been called out of the nations, -'and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight.' Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices, – the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates?”
200: Tertullian – Against Marcion
230: Origen – The Principles
235: Hippolytus
248: Cyprian – Testimonies Against the Jews
250: Origen – Against Celsus | John | Matthew “I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem.”
260: Victorinus – Apocalypse Commentary
273: Alexander of Alexandia – Epistle on Arianism “The Father, raising Him to His right hand, hath seated Him upon a throne on high, and hath made Him to be judge of the peoples, the leader of the angelic host, the charioteer of the cherubim, the Son of the true Jerusalem, the Virgin's spouse, and King for ever and ever. Amen.”
306: Peter of Alexandria – Letter to the Church at Alexandria “By the later who lived after the destruction of Jerusalem, it was shown to possess a most clear and evidently definite period, especially because in some places the reaping is early, and sometimes it is late, so as to be sometimes before the time and sometimes after it, as it happened in the very beginning of the giving of the law, before the Passover, according as it is written, “But the wheat and the rye were not smitten, for they were not grown up.”
310: Eusebius – Theophania
310: Peter of Alexandria – Fragments
312: Eusebius – Demonstratio Evangelica
319: Eusebius – Proof of the Gospel – Lightfoot “probably the most important apologetic work of the Early Church.” (D.C.B. ii.331.)
319: Athanasius – On the Incarnation | Refutation of the Jews
320: Eusebius – History of the Martyrs
325: Eusebius – Ecclesiastical History
330: Lactantius
345: Aphrates – Demonstrations “The theology and writings of Aphrahat draw extensively on the Old Testament reflecting a religious milieu of 4th century Mesopotamia in which Christianity was seeking to define itself as separate from Judaism. (Aphrahat) praises Jesus Christ as the divine conqueror of death and fulfillment of all types and prophecies of the Old Law.”
359: Gregory of Nyssa – On Virginity
360: Ephrem the Syrian – Selected Works Translated out of the Original Syriac (1847 PDF)
367: Athanasius – Festal Letters – “Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly. Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in truth.”
370: Pseudo Hegesippus – On The Ruin of the City of Jerusalem
386: Chrysostom – Homilies Against the Jews “In the late fourth century Chrysostom, in his apologetic works on Christianity and Hellenism, again uses the Temple's destruction as proof of Judaism's illegitimacy.”
387: Chrysostom – Homilies on Matthew 24 “Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it.”
388: Chrysostom – Homilies on Second Timothy
390s: Epiphanes
390s: Pseudo Chrysostom
390: Ambrose of Milan
401: Sulpicius Severus –
Sacred History408: Jerome – Commentary on Daniel
410: Jerome – The Nativity of Christ
412: Isidore of Pelusium
417: Augustine – On Pelagius
420: Augustine – On Doctrine | The Bondage of the Jews
420: Cassian – Conferences
426: Augustine – City of God
428: Augustine – Harmony of the Gospels
thinker
WJ said:
Quote Did “Now” mean right then when he said the judgment of this world? Did he mean “Now” when he said satan will be driven out? WJ,
I direct you to my original statement when I first invoked John 12:31. I said,Quote We may allow enough flexibility to the word “now” for some time to elapse. But not two thousand years and counting. I believe that it was fulfilled by the end of Jesus' own generation, May 19 2009, 11:13 Note that I admitted flexibility to the word “now” right off the bat. I said that I believe that it was fulfilled “by the end of Jesus' own generation”. And after this I have said two times that the casting out of satan was indeed future from when Jesus spoke the words. However, the word “now” must indicate the NEAR future. I have never said that “now” meant right then and there. Satan was to be cast out in the NEAR future from the vantage point of the disciples. Satan's demise is past from our vantage point. It is done!
blessings,
thinkerThe Thinker wrote:
Quote Satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70.
There is not one iota of evidence to back up that conclusion.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote James was written before the devil was cast into the lake of fire. James was written about ad44.
Of course I pointed to James to show you that the devil is the tempter and since we are still being tempted he is obviously still tempting us because God cannot do that. In other words Satan has not experienced the second death.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Where did I assert that the first and second death was one and the same?
I did not state that. I did tell you that you are being careless and not watching your doctrine. though my wording was probably more harsh. The death that is condemnation is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire into which Satan and death are thrown. That is why I pointed out that your conclusion did not make sense.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote When I say that condemnation has been abolished I speak only in reference to the believer. I am NOT a universalist.
You stated that the death that was thrown in to the lake of fire was “condemnation”. There is only two deaths and the second death is only for the condemned. You might want to reword what you stated because you accidentally gave the impression that you are a universalist. I am glad to hear that you are not deluded in that way.
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:26)
WJ said:Quote Did “Now” mean right then when he said the judgment of this world? Did he mean “Now” when he said satan will be driven out? WJ,
I direct you to my original statement when I first invoked John 12:31. I said,Quote We may allow enough flexibility to the word “now” for some time to elapse. But not two thousand years and counting. I believe that it was fulfilled by the end of Jesus' own generation, May 19 2009, 11:13 Note that I admitted flexibility to the word “now” right off the bat. I said that I believe that it was fulfilled “by the end of Jesus' own generation”. And after this I have said two times that the casting out of satan was indeed future from when Jesus spoke the words. However, the word “now” must indicate the NEAR future. I have never said that “now” meant right then and there. Satan was to be cast out in the NEAR future from the vantage point of the disciples. Satan's demise is past from our vantage point. It is done!
blessings,
thinker
Hi ThinkerQuote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:26) Note that I admitted flexibility to the word “now” right off the bat. I said that I believe that it was fulfilled “by the end of Jesus' own generation”. I noted that, but then you insist that it has to be at 70AD without any evidence.
WJ
Thinker If Satan would be in the lake of fire, like you claim, death too would be thrown into the lake of fire. Why, because it is Satan that caused us to die. Once that will take place nobody will die any more. And that is not so right now. Use a little common sense.
IreneQuote (Cindy @ May 21 2009,04:53) thinker you have to be kidding, when you say that Satan and his demons are in the Lake of fire. I have never heard of that before; so we are not to worry about him? You better prove that to yurself again. Satan is very much alive here on earth. If He would not, we would not sin, since he is the author of Sin.
Irene
Irene,
Just because you have never heard of Preterism before does not mean it has not existed. Many church fathers held to this view. The great Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon was also a Preterist. He preached that we are in the new heaven and new earth and I agree.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:09)
WJ said:Quote I cannot find where any scholar denies the date of 1 John to be earlier than 100-110. WJ,
I have directed you to Preteristarchive.com for info on the dating of John's writings. But let's assume for a moment that your 100-110 dating is correct. It would still mean that satan is not around today for John said “it is the LAST HOUR”,Quote Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour (1 John 2:18) How can satan be around in our time if John and his audience were in the LAST hour whether it was pre-AD70 or AD 110? So your dating even if it be correct does not prove that satan is around in our time.They were in the last hour of the old covenant age. They were looking forward to the eternal new covenant age.
WJ said:
Quote Besides I believe the “evil one” he speaks of is the “devil” which he also mentions twice in the Epistle. Do you believe that Jesus destroyed the works of the devil?
Quote For this reason the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) It has been over two thousand years now and the futurists tell us that satan is still alive and well.
WJ said:
Quote Besides, what about the church Fathers like Ignatious who was a disciple of John. They did not believe in Preterism. There were many church fathers who were Preterists. May I point you to the link I have provided below:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html
150: Justin Martyr – Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew
150: Pseudo Clement: Recognitions
150: Melito – Homily of the Pascha “Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven.” “The battle between Christians and Jews over possession of the name “Israel” goes back to the earliest days of Christianity.. the past-tense verbs found in (Melito's) Peri Pascha 99 may indicate that the author is referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.”
175: Irenaeus – Against Heresies “the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”
185: Clement of Alexandria – The Stromata
198: Tertullian – An Answer to the Jews “among us, who have been called out of the nations, -'and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight.' Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices, – the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates?”
200: Tertullian – Against Marcion
230: Origen – The Principles
235: Hippolytus
248: Cyprian – Testimonies Against the Jews
250: Origen – Against Celsus | John | Matthew “I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem.”
260: Victorinus – Apocalypse Commentary
273: Alexander of Alexandia – Epistle on Arianism “The Father, raising Him to His right hand, hath seated Him upon a throne on high, and hath made Him to be judge of the peoples, the leader of the angelic host, the charioteer of the cherubim, the Son of the true Jerusalem, the Virgin's spouse, and King for ever and ever. Amen.”
306: Peter of Alexandria – Letter to the Church at Alexandria “By the later who lived after the destruction of Jerusalem, it was shown to possess a most clear and evidently definite period, especially because in some places the reaping is early, and sometimes it is late, so as to be sometimes before the time and sometimes after it, as it happened in the very beginning of the giving of the law, before the Passover, according as it is written, “But the wheat and the rye were not smitten, for they were not grown up.”
310: Eusebius – Theophania
310: Peter of Alexandria – Fragments
312: Eusebius – Demonstratio Evangelica
319: Eusebius – Proof of the Gospel – Lightfoot “probably the most important apologetic work of the Early Church.” (D.C.B. ii.331.)
319: Athanasius – On the Incarnation | Refutation of the Jews
320: Eusebius – History of the Martyrs
325: Eusebius – Ecclesiastical History
330: Lactantius
345: Aphrates – Demonstrations “The theology and writings of Aphrahat draw extensively on the Old Testament reflecting a religious milieu of 4th century Mesopotamia in which Christianity was seeking to define itself as separate from Judaism. (Aphrahat) praises Jesus Christ as the divine conqueror of death and fulfillment of all types and prophecies of the Old Law.”
359: Gregory of Nyssa – On Virginity
360: Ephrem the Syrian – Selected Works Translated out of the Original Syriac (1847 PDF)
367: Athanasius – Festal Letters – “Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly. Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in truth.”
370: Pseudo Hegesippus – On The Ruin of the City of Jerusalem
386: Chrysostom – Homilies Against the Jews “In the late fourth century Chrysostom, in his apologetic works on Christianity and Hellenism, again uses the Temple's destruction as proof of Judaism's illegitimacy.”
387: Chrysostom – Homilies on Matthew 24 “Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It
is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it.”388: Chrysostom – Homilies on Second Timothy
390s: Epiphanes
390s: Pseudo Chrysostom
390: Ambrose of Milan
401: Sulpicius Severus – Sacred History
408: Jerome – Commentary on Daniel
410: Jerome – The Nativity of Christ
412: Isidore of Pelusium
417: Augustine – On Pelagius
420: Augustine – On Doctrine | The Bondage of the Jews
420: Cassian – Conferences
426: Augustine – City of God
428: Augustine – Harmony of the Gospels
thinker
Hi ThinkerQuote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:09) WJ said: Quote Besides, what about the church Fathers like Ignatious who was a disciple of John. They did not believe in Preterism. There were many church fathers who were Preterists. May I point you to the link I have provided below:
I am sorry, I do not see anything in their statements claiming Preterism. Can you show me where they believed everything was fulfilled in 70AD including satan being thrown into the lake of fire and the 1000 year millinium is past?
WJ
thethinker said:
Quote Satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70. Kerwin replied:
Quote There is not one iota of evidence to back up that conclusion. Kerwin,
Not one iota of evidence eh? How about the following,Rev. 3:11, “I am coming quickly“
Rev. Rev. 22:10, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near“
Rev. 22:12, “Behold, I am coming quickly…”
Rev. 22:20, “Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen…”
Christ told the seven churches that the time was NEAR and that He was coming QUICKLY. This means that satan's destruction was also NEAR and coming QUICKLY. Yet you say that there is not one iota of evidence.
John said “Amen” to Christ's coming quickly and he was not disappointed. We know that the destruction of the temple was the sign Jesus gave for His coming. We know that this was fulfilled in AD70. Therefore, satan was cast into the lake of fire THEN.
thinker
Quote (Cindy @ May 21 2009,10:09) Thinker If Satan would be in the lake of fire, like you claim, death too would be thrown into the lake of fire. Why, because it is Satan that caused us to die. Once that will take place nobody will die any more. And that is not so right now. Use a little common sense.
Irene
Irene,
Death has been thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus said,Quote He that believes in me shall never die Jesus was NOT talking about physical death. The “death” that was thrown into the lake of fire was condemnation. There will always be physical death.
thinker
Hi Thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:09) WJ said: Quote Besides I believe the “evil one” he speaks of is the “devil” which he also mentions twice in the Epistle. Do you believe that Jesus destroyed the works of the devil?
Quote For this reason the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) It’s obvious that John wasn’t saying by that statement that satan was destroyed.
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 1 John 3:8
John was saying for this purpose he came yet it hadn’t happened yet. There is nothing in this scripture that says he has destroyed the devil and thrown him into the lake of fire. In fact the verse says he that sins is of the devil and people are still sinning today.
If satan is no more then there would be no more death and sin for Paul said we do not yet see all things put under him.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26
This scripture says that the end comes when everything is put under Jesus feet.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
It says that Jesus will be subdued to the Father when all things are put under him. Has Jesus delivered up the Kingdom to the Father yet? If not then all enemies are not under him yet.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ May 21 2009,10:08) thethinker said: Quote Satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70. Kerwin replied:
Quote There is not one iota of evidence to back up that conclusion. Kerwin,
Not one iota of evidence eh? How about the following,Rev. 3:11, “I am coming quickly“
Rev. Rev. 22:10, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near“
Rev. 22:12, “Behold, I am coming quickly…”
Rev. 22:20, “Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen…”
Christ told the seven churches that the time was NEAR and that He was coming QUICKLY. This means that satan's destruction was also NEAR and coming QUICKLY. Yet you say that there is not one iota of evidence.
John said “Amen” to Christ's coming quickly and he was not disappointed. We know that the destruction of the temple was the sign Jesus gave for His coming. We know that this was fulfilled in AD70. Therefore, satan was cast into the lake of fire THEN.
thinker
Hi ThinkerYou need to understand the principle that God can declare something to be now and yet it is to come to pass.
I have given you some examples of this and there are many more.
For instance the one that says all things are not yet under his feet.
When Jesus was given all authority and power, all things were put under his feet, yet the Apostle says we do not yet see this experiencially.
When Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, judicially it was finished. Yet experiencially all things were not finished.
When Jesus says he comes quickly, then to him it is quickly.
A thousand years can be like a day to the Lord.
Blessings WJ
WJ said:
Quote I am sorry, I do not see anything in their statements claiming Preterism. Can you show me where they believed everything was fulfilled in 70AD including satan being thrown into the lake of fire and the 1000 year millinium is past? Hi WJ,
Please look up the titles from the fathers. Preteristarchive is trustworthy on the history of Preterism in the Church. I am getting the impression that you are not really interested enough to do your own homework. If my impression is mistaken then I apologize in advance. Go back to the site and click on “Eusebius”. He said,Quote “But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as THE WORD or GOD, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was. He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, “If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:” intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world. But, when ye shall see it reduced by armies, know ye that which comes upon it, to be a final and full desolation and destruction. He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; “For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword.” We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. On this account He said, “Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written.” Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus. Please not those phrases that I put in bold.
Btw, not all Preterists agree that all was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. I am a consistent Preterist. Jesus gave the destruction of Jerusalem as the sign of His coming. Revelation puts the casting out of satan at the time of His coming. Therefore, the destruction of Jerusalem was also was an indication to God's people that satan had been judged and cast out.
We live in the satan free new covenant age.
thinker
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