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There ia an organization name International Bible Students (IBS). This Organization believes that we are in the Millenium.
Are we in the millenium?
If we are then Rev. 12 has happened, the tribulation has come and gone, Satan is bound.
This organization claims to be the TRUE diciples of Pastor Charles T Russell. They claim Pastor Russell did not start the JWs and further they say that Pastor Russell didn't teach the doctrines of the JWs.
Just serching for some TRUTH!
Perhaps they are the “true disciples of Pastor Charles T Russel,” as you say.
But I thought we were supposed to be disciples (followers) of Christ.
Whenever a group is bound up too much with one man, you must wonder. We are not to worship men, but rather God.Has the tribulation come and gone?
MATTHEW 24:21
“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”
Has this happened?REVELATION 7:14
“So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Has this happened?What is the purpose of Satan being bound? Is it not so that he can't mislead the nations anymore?
Has this happened?david.
Hi Phoenix,
As I understand it, there are at least two events that must happan before the “great tribulation”; the 'signing of the covenant with Israel' and the 'abomination of desolation'.Daniel 9:24-27
24″Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.25″So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26″Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27″And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
I'm sorry I am tied up with something and can't elaborate on this for you at the moment.
Incredibility of Jerusalem’s fall
Neh 10:1 ¶ Now those that sealed [were], Nehemiah, the Tirshatha, the son of Hachaliah, and Zidkijah,
Neh 10:2 Seraiah, Azariah,” Jeremiah,”
Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;Order for the men to put away their wives and children
Neh 13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.
Jer 12:7 ¶ I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.
Jer 12:8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it.
Jer 12:9 Mine heritage [is] unto me [as] a speckled bird, the birds round about [are] against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour.Incredibility of Jerusalem’s fall laminations of Jeremiah?
Lam 3:12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.
Lam 3:13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
Lam 3:14 I was a derision to all my people; [and] their song all the day.
Lam 3:15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
Lam 3:16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
Lam 3:17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
Lam 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
Lam 3:19 ¶ Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
Lam 3:20 My soul hath [them] still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
Lam 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.The Harlot burned and prepared as the bride of Christ;
Isa 23:14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste.
Isa 23:15 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.
Once a harlot still a halot
Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isa 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isa 23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.Hello david
You ask the question; has Mat. 24:21 happened yet? Yes it did.
During the second world war, Hitler tried to kill all the Jews, and had he won the war, there would be no flesh, Jew, alive today. This is the same prophecy in Jer. 30:7, and in Dan. 12:1.Rev. 7:14, are all the saints that came out of the Roman persecution, which lasted till 313 A.D., and the persecution under Antichrist, which began in 565 A.D. till 1825 A.D.. All the saints will become spirit beings, since they will reign with Christ in his spiritual kingdom.
No, Satan has not yet been put away, not until Zech. 13:2+3 has been fulfilled; we are now in the time of Zech. 12:2+3.
To Phoenix, No!
To Is 1:18, the seventy weeks are a prophecy, showing when God would poor out his Holy Spirit on the gentiles also. Thank God for that.
Bless you all
Quote To Is 1:18, the seventy weeks are a prophecy, showing when God would poor out his Holy Spirit on the gentiles also.
A prophecy, yes, but how do you get “God would poor out his Holy Spirit on the gentiles also” from Dan 9:24-27?Just want to share what I know as according to the actual date of the mellenium. The actual year today is 6007, since creation. That puts us in the beginning of the mellenium (for the last 6 plus years). We are in the mellenium. Some things have happened and some haven't.
The birth pains have begun, the time of Jacob's trouble. Things will progress faster and faster from her on out. Hang on and hold on tight. Do not be deceived, because even His elect can be deceived. Keep focused on the Word, and what the Messiah has to teach us.
Abomination of desolation is the temple of Islam built in the court of the gentiles from where Solomon's temple stood in Jerusalem.
The courtyard will be trampled under foot by the gentiles for a specific amount of time, I cant' remember off hand.
Remember 1 week equals 7 years. I believe this covenant was signed in 1994. It was null and voided by Ariel Sharon in 2001, to the day. On that day Jacob's trouble was declared in Israel.
Here's an article I found on Israel's covenant with death:
Sharon: Oslo's dead, I'd start from scratch
JERUSALEM — Ariel Sharon, widely expected to become Israel's new leader, has said he will send the peace process with the Palestinians back to square one, offering them far less than Premier Ehud Barak.
“The Oslo accords are dead. Period,” Sharon said in an interview with the Orthodox Jewish weekly Kfar Habad, excerpts of which were published on Tuesday in the Yediot Aharonot newspaper's Internet site.
The Oslo accords, signed in 1993, formed the basis of the current peace process now in tatters after three months of Israeli-Palestinian violence.
“The basis of those accords was that all disputes must be settled at the negotiating table, not by violence,” said Sharon.
“As long as there is violence, it means very clearly that the Oslo accords no longer exist,” said Sharon, who heads the main right-wing Likud party and who is lengths ahead of Barak in opinion polls ahead of the February 6 election.
His comments were confirmed by Zalman Shoval, a former Israeli ambassador to the United States who heads Likud's foreign policy department.
“Oslo, of course, is dead, and died in practice a long time ago”, Shoval said. “As things stand now, the two sides may just not be ready for a final agreement.”
But Shoval said Likud is a party capable of negotiating peace, saying it had conducted “most of” Israel's negotiations with the Palestinians.
He pointed to the Oslo accords themselves, as well as to peace treaties signed with Egypt and Jordan. “A Sharon government will aim at reaching long-term, interim agreements with some aspect of permanency,” Shoval said.
He gave no further details, claiming it would be “irresponsible” for Likud to reveal its strategy. — Sapa-AFPQuote (Laurel @ July 21 2007,17:40) Just want to share what I know as according to the actual date of the mellenium. The actual year today is 6007, since creation. That puts us in the beginning of the mellenium (for the last 6 plus years). We are in the mellenium. Some things have happened and some haven't. The birth pains have begun, the time of Jacob's trouble. Things will progress faster and faster from her on out. Hang on and hold on tight. Do not be deceived, because even His elect can be deceived. Keep focused on the Word, and what the Messiah has to teach us.
Hi Laurel:If I am understanding correctly, based on the following scripture, the millenium or 1000 year reign with Christ will not occur until after the first resurrection.
Quote 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.God Bless
Is. 1:18, Hi
Dan. 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
What is important to notice is the seventy weeks for his people, the Jews; something was to happen at the end of those seventy weeks.
v. 25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the streets shall be build again, and the walls, even in troubles times.”
The order to rebuild Jerusalem was given in 457 B.C., that is were the counting for the seventy weeks begins.
It took seven weeks to complete the job of rebuilding, and after another sixty two weeks, a total of sixty nine weeks, until the anointing of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit; at his baptism. The beginning of the last week, the seventieth week, was also the time of Christs ministry.Dan. 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Jesus preached, confirmed, the new covenant to many for three and a half years, or half a week, then he was cut of, he died. His death put an end to the old covenant sacrifices and oblations, offerings; caused them to cease.
Before his death he had given instructions to his Apostles not to preach to the Gentiles, none Jews.Mat. 10:5 “These twelve Jesus send forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the Samar'itans enter ye not.”
v. 6 “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”At the end of the seventieth week, Peter was given to understand that the Holy Spirit was given to the gentiles also; Acts 10, and Cornelius was the first, v. 25-;
Acts 10:45 “And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
This is what the seventy weeks are all about, the promise of the Holy Spirit to none Jews, thank God for that.
Bless you
Hi Laurel:
942767 said,
“If I am understanding correctly, based on the following scripture, the millenium or 1000 year reign with Christ will not occur until after the first resurrection.”I'm preety sure Y'shua was ressurected once already. Yes, I'm being sarcastic here. What do you mean the first ressurection? To me itis plain, Y'shua was the first ressurection and the firstfruits.
Hi Laurel,
Christ is the firstborn from the dead.
But Rev 20 has yet to see that resurrection of his body.Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:5
is saying that the rest of the dead will not be ressurected untill the return of the Messiah to judge the living and the dead, then they will reign with Him for 1,000 years in heaven.The words “first ressurection” here are pointing to the dead who were in Messiah at the time of their death, who died after He assended to the Father. Simply saying they will not taste the second death which is permanent destruction in the pit where satan and death will be destroyed.
This “first ressurection” is not the same as First Fruits, which are those who went to heaven following Messiah's assention, after His ressurection. The souls who came out of their graves when Messiah was nailed to the tree. They are the First Fruits with Messiah. The Latter Fruits aree those who are saved at His return.
The mellenium is now. We are in the final 1,000 year period of the earth as we know it. The 1,000 years of the raised who reign in heaven with Him are a seperate issue. Many people confuse them to be the same, but are not.
Israel's “covenant with death” has already been made, and it will be disannuled by Elohim. The covenant with death is the dividing up of the land of Israel for peace, which will never happen.
As I write, our President is continuing talks which he supports that will give the “west bank” and the “golan heights” to Palestine.
Elohim Himself will have wrath upon our nation because of our presidents decision to divide Israel up. Israel is being shredded by the claws of the eagle. Claws or hand or power all the same thing. How will he do it, well for one thing it's gonna be hot enough to melt rock!
Quote (Laurel @ July 26 2007,02:55) Rev 20:5
is saying that the rest of the dead will not be ressurected untill the return of the Messiah to judge the living and the dead, then they will reign with Him for 1,000 years in heaven.The words “first ressurection” here are pointing to the dead who were in Messiah at the time of their death, who died after He assended to the Father. Simply saying they will not taste the second death which is permanent destruction in the pit where satan and death will be destroyed.
This “first ressurection” is not the same as First Fruits, which are those who went to heaven following Messiah's assention, after His ressurection. The souls who came out of their graves when Messiah was nailed to the tree. They are the First Fruits with Messiah. The Latter Fruits aree those who are saved at His return.
The mellenium is now. We are in the final 1,000 year period of the earth as we know it. The 1,000 years of the raised who reign in heaven with Him are a seperate issue. Many people confuse them to be the same, but are not.
Israel's “covenant with death” has already been made, and it will be disannuled by Elohim. The covenant with death is the dividing up of the land of Israel for peace, which will never happen.
Ummm,1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.The apostles are not part of the first resurrection?
Just asking?
1 Thes 14:15-17
says that people who are alive can not do anything to change the status of those who have alteady died. We can't pray them into heaven, nor can we see to it that they partake of the second death. Once your dead the first time your salvation is sealed, wether or not the one who died, died in the belief or not.Then, Vs 16-17 says that our Master Y'shua Messiah will descend from heaven, an nowhere does it say His feet will touch the ground. Those who already died in Him will come out of the grave and rise up to meet Him in the air, we who are alive then will see it happen, then we too will go up as our earthly bodies are changed, we will meet Him in the air.
Now, getting back to the mellinium, those who were saved in the verses above will live in heaven untill the 1,000 years is complete. After the wicked are destroyed and Satan and death along with them, the earth will be renewed and we (the previously saved)will live on it.
Rev.20:1-5
Says, for the 1,000 years that all those who have eternal life live in heaven for 1,000 years. At this time, Satan will be locked up for the same 1,000 years.There are still the dead who in the grave have not been judged. And it is “my” understanding that there will be peoples still alive who are against Elohim, for that same 1,000 year period.
Rev. 20:5 was written to be revealed at a later time. The first resurection here is separate from the sentence before it. At first glance it looks as if they are together, but is actually discribing those in 20:4.
The first sentence of 20:5 is those who are not saved, who were not a part of the first ressurection. The words “lived not again” are confusing. They mean “to wake up”, they will then wake up to judgement and see all that they will never have, which is eternal life.
Y'shua explains how they will react when they see heaven and there is a big ravine between them and the saved. Read Messiah's Words in Luke 16:19-31. He tells us how this time will be.
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