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Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2008,14:08) Quote ummm I agree.
ummm?
Quote Rev 12:11. They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.Putting part of it in bold does not explain who the “they” are.
Notice who the “they” are, once again:
“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of OUR BRETHREN, who accused THEM before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And THEY (our brothers) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
It was because of the word of their witnessing or testimony, and because of the blood of the lamb that “they” (our brothers) conquered him.
Yes, of course, you are right, “angel” and “messenger” exact same word.
And yes, that word can be translated “prince” or “leader” but I have no idea why you're telling us that.
I'm wondering if you could explain this, with a paragraph or something:
Quote If Michael and his messengers over come Satan by the blood of the Lamb, then Michael is not the Lamb. Quote A messenger of God is a person either here on earth, or from the Kingdom of God.
Of course, angels are messengers. The word that is translated as messenger and angel are the exact same. But, to distinguish between human messengers and spirit messerngers, we use the word “angels.”
If the subject is about Michael and his Messengers then THEY are the THEY being talked about. Did you see another set of charactors being talked about? I did not see another set of charactors being talked about. HmmmmSo if there is no denial that Jesus is Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Moses, or Abraham then there always remains the possibility that he is one of these people or someone else. But to make a doctrine out of one of these choices is not wise.
Speculation should remain speculation and should never become a doctrine or teaching.
Quote If the subject is about Michael and his Messengers then THEY are the THEY being talked about. Did you see another set of charactors being talked about? I did not see another set of charactors being talked about. Hmmmm Did you see the words “Our brethren” or “our brothers.”
the accuser of OUR BRETHREN, who accused THEM before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And THEY (our brothers) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
I do not believe the “our brothers' is referring to Michael and the messengers (angels.)
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2008,15:48) Quote If the subject is about Michael and his Messengers then THEY are the THEY being talked about. Did you see another set of charactors being talked about? I did not see another set of charactors being talked about. Hmmmm Did you see the words “Our brethren” or “our brothers.”
the accuser of OUR BRETHREN, who accused THEM before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And THEY (our brothers) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
I do not believe the “our brothers' is referring to Michael and the messengers (angels.)
“Our brothers” is secondary and not the subject of “They.” Inserting “Our brothers” after “They” does not make them the subject. However I do agree that all of our brothers who hold to the testamony of Yahshua will have a victory.Quote but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. –mike
In brackets you say (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) and you say this after the word “heaven” indicating that you believe the “heaven” here is actually the earth. But the next verse says he was cast out and cast to “the earth.”
If “heaven” means “earth”, what does “earth” mean?
He could not have been cast from the earth to the earth, because it says there was no place found for him there, anymore.I think a more realistic explanation is that he was cast from heaven to earth. (being locked out of or having no access to the other angels or God as it were.)
That's why there was rejoicing in heaven when this happened, but “woe” for the earth.Also, you again say that the “our brothers” does not refer to humans on earth, but did you notice this:
REVELATION 12:11
“They conquered [Satan] because . . . of the word of THEIR WITNESSING.”Just a few verses later:
REVELATION 12:17
“And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the WORK OF BEARING WITNESS TO JESUS.”It is humans on earth who are witnessing about Jesus and his Father.
REVELATION 1:9
“I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.”REVELATION 19:10
“At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of YOUR BROTHERS WHO HAVE THE WORK OF WITNESSING TO JESUS. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.””Again, these brothers of the speaker, who have the work of witnessing, are humans on earth.
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2008,17:41) Quote but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. –mike
In brackets you say (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) and you say this after the word “heaven” indicating that you believe the “heaven” here is actually the earth. But the next verse says he was cast out and cast to “the earth.”
If “heaven” means “earth”, what does “earth” mean?
He could not have been cast from the earth to the earth, because it says there was no place found for him there, anymore.I think a more realistic explanation is that he was cast from heaven to earth. (being locked out of or having no access to the other angels or God as it were.)
That's why there was rejoicing in heaven when this happened, but “woe” for the earth.Also, you again say that the “our brothers” does not refer to humans on earth, but did you notice this:
REVELATION 12:11
“They conquered [Satan] because . . . of the word of THEIR WITNESSING.”Just a few verses later:
REVELATION 12:17
“And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the WORK OF BEARING WITNESS TO JESUS.”It is humans on earth who are witnessing about Jesus and his Father.
REVELATION 1:9
“I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.”REVELATION 19:10
“At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of YOUR BROTHERS WHO HAVE THE WORK OF WITNESSING TO JESUS. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.””Again, these brothers of the speaker, who have the work of witnessing, are humans on earth.
Perhaps this verse will answer your question. Luke 17:20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is among you.” Simply put, the word “Heaven” means place or places. Also when a leader is cast down in the world, it means they lost their place of leadership.Quote Simply put, the word “Heaven” means place or places. No, that's not what it means. It can refer to different places: spritual heavens, physical heavens, human rulerships, etc, but it doesn't mean “place or places.”
Do you not give any notice to the scriptures I showed which make extremely plain who the “our brothers” are that had the work of witnessing?
Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2008,10:07) Quote Simply put, the word “Heaven” means place or places. No, that's not what it means. It can refer to different places: spritual heavens, physical heavens, human rulerships, etc, but it doesn't mean “place or places.”
Do you not give any notice to the scriptures I showed which make extremely plain who the “our brothers” are that had the work of witnessing?
You only affirmed what I said. Is Michael and his Messengers OUR BROTHERS?Quote Is Michael and his Messengers OUR BROTHERS? Since this battle happens in heaven, they are spirit messengers (ie: angels)
And, no in scripture, the angels aren't really ever called “our brothers.” Nor in scripture are they said to witness.
When John was referring to “our brothers” whose witness work conquered Satan, just maybe he was referring to these people:
REVELATION 19:10
“At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of YOUR BROTHERS WHO HAVE THE WORK OF WITNESSING TO JESUS. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.””Or, just a few verses after the scripture in question, we find these words:
REVELATION 12:17
“And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the WORK OF BEARING WITNESS TO JESUS.”Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2008,10:49) Sorry, I forgot that you believe heaven means “earth” here. Very convenient.
The Coming of the Kingdom of God
Luke 17:20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is among you.” Genesis 16And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven.
Quote 8And God called the firmament Heaven. yes, God called the expanse (firmament) heaven. True. It doesn't say he called earth heaven.
It's the same expanse or “heaven” where dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17).
And nor does luke 17 say anything to that effect.
The king of that kingdom was among them, so it could be said that the kingdom was among them. And yes, it's a heavenly kingdom. But the kingdom of God is not heaven.
Otherwise, phrases like “heavenly kingdom” would mean heavenly heaven. (2 tim 4:18)
Similarly, a kingdom is a government run by a king. When we hear the phrase “kingdom of the heavens” it means a government with it's rulers in heaven.Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2008,12:09) Quote 8And God called the firmament Heaven. yes, God called the expanse (firmament) heaven. True. It doesn't say he called earth heaven.
It's the same expanse or “heaven” where dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17).
And nor does luke 17 say anything to that effect.
The king of that kingdom was among them, so it could be said that the kingdom was among them. And yes, it's a heavenly kingdom. But the kingdom of God is not heaven.
Otherwise, phrases like “heavenly kingdom” would mean heavenly heaven. (2 tim 4:18)
Similarly, a kingdom is a government run by a king. When we hear the phrase “kingdom of the heavens” it means a government with it's rulers in heaven.
In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for “firmament” is “raqiya`” (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground.Quote In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for “firmament” is “raqiya`” (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground. And a little more information:
firmament Look up firmament at Dictionary.comc.1250, from L. firmamentum “firmament,” lit. “a support or strengthening,” from firmus “firm” (see firm (adj.)), used in Vulgate to translate Gk. stereoma “firm or solid structure,” which translated Heb. raqia, a word used of both the vault of the sky and the floor of the earth in the O.T., probably lit. “expanse,” from raqa “to spread out,” but in Syriac meaning “to make firm or solid,” hence the erroneous translation.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.p….de=none
Even the King James Version Bible, which uses “firmament,” says in the margin, “expansion.”
This is because the Hebrew word ra·qi′a‛, translated “expanse,” means to stretch out or spread out or expand.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=7549
Long before Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.), who believed that the stars were driven into the sky like nails, Genesis (1:6-8) described the heavenly vault as an “expanse” (New World Translation), or “firmament” (Douay Version). The word “firmament” comes from the Latin firmare, which means to give consistency, to make firm, or solid. Jerome used this expression in the Latin Vulgate in translating the Hebrew word raqia that, to the contrary, means “extended surface,” “expanse.” According to T. Moreux, former head of Bourges Observatory, France, “this expanse, which to us constitutes heaven, is designated in the Hebrew text by a word which the [Greek] Septuagint, influenced by the cosmological ideas prevailing at the time, translated by stereoma, firmament, solid canopy. Moses transmits no such thought. The Hebrew word raqia only conveys the idea of extent or, better still, expanse.” The Bible has therefore described, most accurately, the expanse or atmosphere above us.
Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2008,18:14) Quote In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for “firmament” is “raqiya`” (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground. And a little more information:
firmament Look up firmament at Dictionary.comc.1250, from L. firmamentum “firmament,” lit. “a support or strengthening,” from firmus “firm” (see firm (adj.)), used in Vulgate to translate Gk. stereoma “firm or solid structure,” which translated Heb. raqia, a word used of both the vault of the sky and the floor of the earth in the O.T., probably lit. “expanse,” from raqa “to spread out,” but in Syriac meaning “to make firm or solid,” hence the erroneous translation.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.p….de=none
Even the King James Version Bible, which uses “firmament,” says in the margin, “expansion.”
This is because the Hebrew word ra·qi′a‛, translated “expanse,” means to stretch out or spread out or expand.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=7549
Long before Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.), who believed that the stars were driven into the sky like nails, Genesis (1:6-8) described the heavenly vault as an “expanse” (New World Translation), or “firmament” (Douay Version). The word “firmament” comes from the Latin firmare, which means to give consistency, to make firm, or solid. Jerome used this expression in the Latin Vulgate in translating the Hebrew word raqia that, to the contrary, means “extended surface,” “expanse.” According to T. Moreux, former head of Bourges Observatory, France, “this expanse, which to us constitutes heaven, is designated in the Hebrew text by a word which the [Greek] Septuagint, influenced by the cosmological ideas prevailing at the time, translated by stereoma, firmament, solid canopy. Moses transmits no such thought. The Hebrew word raqia only conveys the idea of extent or, better still, expanse.” The Bible has therefore described, most accurately, the expanse or atmosphere above us.
Well I thank God that the sky is not solid in this expanding world.Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2008,12:09) Quote 8And God called the firmament Heaven. yes, God called the expanse (firmament) heaven. True. It doesn't say he called earth heaven.
It's the same expanse or “heaven” where dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17).
And nor does luke 17 say anything to that effect.
The king of that kingdom was among them, so it could be said that the kingdom was among them. And yes, it's a heavenly kingdom. But the kingdom of God is not heaven.
Otherwise, phrases like “heavenly kingdom” would mean heavenly heaven. (2 tim 4:18)
Similarly, a kingdom is a government run by a king. When we hear the phrase “kingdom of the heavens” it means a government with it's rulers in heaven.
Is this any help to you? ******* Revelation 211. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Hi david,
Transferrred from the other thread as suggested by you.
Hi david,
So looking at the theory
JESUS IS MICHAEL
1. Examine the Immediate Context.
Do not isolate a few words, but consider the verses before and after. What is being discussed?NO SCRIPTURE SAYS IT
2. Consider the Larger Context.
The Bible Interprets Itself. What do related scriptures say?
We must consider all the scriptures on a given subject and weigh them in order to grasp the true meaning.
NO OTHER VERSES TO COMPARE WITH3. God’s Word never contradicts itself.
So if there is an apparent contradiction, then you are misunderstanding a scripture. If there are a group of scriptures that state one idea clearly, use those to help you understand the scripture in question.
NO SCRIPTURES SAY HE IS NOT
But they do say he was made less that the angels in hebrews so that makes him no form of angel, arch or otherwise.4. Start with Clear Scriptures.
Never attempt to establish doctrine by unclear scriptures. Isolating only one scripture that can be understood a number of ways and building a belief around that is dangerous.THERE ARE NONE THAT SAY IT
5. Use More Than One Scripture.
No single scripture can be used to establish doctrine.
Examine verses throughout the Bible that are related.
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE SO COMPARISON IS NOT POSSIBLE6. Use More Than One Translation.
Understand what other translations say. Look at the margins/footnotes and see how else that verse can be translated. Some Bibles are almost paraphrases of what the text actually says. If one Bible translates a certain verse differently than most, understand why it does so.
NOT EVEN THE NWT SAYS IT7. Find Out What the Bible really says.
Many beliefs are common but actually aren’t in the Bible. (Nowhere does it say Adam ate from an “apple” but it simply says “fruit.”) Many people believe things, but can’t scripturally explain why.
CLOSER EXAMINATION STILL NEVER FINDS SCRIPTURE SAYING JESUS IS MICHAELConclusion.
IT IS A FALSE PREMISEI”d like to discuss this in the main thread, here:
Hi,
Michael is a prince, an angel with authority, an archangel.
Jesus is not an angel or an archangel.
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