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Quote (david @ Sep. 25 2008,13:13) No, that would be less accurate. Didn't they want to make Jesus king? “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”
I can understand them not wanting to have anything to do with the Beast, but in the Church Age, things have changed. Christians can have a big input into countries. Should we shun such an opportunity?It could be argued that certain countries are blessed because of believers who have sowed seeds of rightoeusness in government and law, etc. We know for example that any country that blesses Israel will be blessed and any cursed if they curse Israel. Should we leave it up to non-believers to bless or curse Israel, or could believers make a positive contribution here?
Anyway that seems like another discussion.
Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 22 2008,22:10) Nick Interesting thinking, all come on here to debate, but not about Politics of America? How many European are on here? Are not most here Americans? We are aloud to debate about God, but not about Politician? That just does not make sense to me. And unfair to Samuel, He is being made feel sorry, real brotherly love.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene.Try the following link, it is a snapshot of the last 31 days stats for Heaven Net.
Hi David
We live in a different world.
The earliest Christians were crucified, thrown to the lions, burned at the stake etc for mentioning the name of Yeshua.
We have a responsibility as believers to be the salt and light of the world.
If a Christian or believer holds a place of office or a job in government what is wrong with influencing policy that supports morality or free speach and the right to worship our God.
God is not divorced from working within governments to accomplish his purpose IMO.
One of the reasons earlier Christians did not want to get involved is because they were killing Christians and to get involved in government meant to renounce your faith.
Not so today. Although if Christians sit back and do nothing then we leave ourselves open for persecution in the future.
I agree with t8 that we have opportunity and responsibility to take part in influencing government and law.
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Prov. 29:2
That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. Daniel 4:25
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Timothy 2:1-3
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are “ordained of God“. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister (diakonos, the same Greek word for deacon or servant) of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:1-4
Here we see Paul writing to the Romans who were under tremendous pressure and persecution for their faith to be subject to the higher powers. History shows that many Romans in government were converted and sought to help the Christian or believer.
We are to pray for our leaders and I believe to elect leaders that are at least sympathetic to our faith so that we have freedom of speech and can bring the Gospel to many more people.
IMO WJ
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 25 2008,13:27) Hey Keith, I bet your voting for Obama, right?
Just kidd'en ya.
Mandy
Hi MandyNo, but you are probably the one who broke the 100%!
WJ
That is with a smile!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2008,13:07) Quote (david @ Sep. 23 2008,18:28) Quote Hi Samuel,
I do not think that introducing American political choices here is relevant or helpful sorry.The earliest Christians didn't vote or hold political office and were considered “no part of the world,” Satan's world. They were separate. They looked to God's kingdom as their hope, not human governments.
Could it be more accurately said “The earliest Christians couldn't vote or hold political office”?
Hi t8True!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2008,14:31) Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 22 2008,22:10) Nick Interesting thinking, all come on here to debate, but not about Politics of America? How many European are on here? Are not most here Americans? We are aloud to debate about God, but not about Politician? That just does not make sense to me. And unfair to Samuel, He is being made feel sorry, real brotherly love.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene.Try the following link, it is a snapshot of the last 31 days stats for Heaven Net.
t8, this is cool stuff!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 25 2008,18:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 25 2008,13:27) Hey Keith, I bet your voting for Obama, right?
Just kidd'en ya.
Mandy
Hi MandyNo, but you are probably the one who broke the 100%!
WJ
Nah, Nick made the poll part go away before anyone else could vote.To be honest, I'm still listening to the debates. I'm undecided. My husband votes Republican and he feels pretty strongly about voting together. My parents felt the same way. So regardless of how I feel, I will probably vote with my husband for McCain. I said *probably*.
There is no way that I would ever vote for Obama. I have been a conservative for years. But I just don't know, who got us in such a mess. And all is not over yet, either. Who knows what will happen with the Stock market. What hap pend with all that money? And now the taxpayers are to bail them out 700 trillion dollars. Trillion………….That is 10.000 for every Household they said. You got to be kidding.
God is going to put into the office of the Present who He sits fit. Time for Jesus to return.
Love IreneI know little of American politics, but to say that it would be cool to see an African American as president someday, if only to prove that the USA gives all 'a fair go' (as we say in this part of the world).
Of course it should really be that the best man gets the job, and race shouldn't be a factor at all as that is akin to judging by the outward appearance. If Obama doesn't get the job because of his race, then I think the USA is not voting in a fair manner. If he doesn't get the job because McCain seems to be more fit to rule, or because Obama is dodgy, then fair enough.
Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 25 2008,20:29) There is no way that I would ever vote for Obama. I have been a conservative for years. But I just don't know, who got us in such a mess. And all is not over yet, either. Who knows what will happen with the Stock market. What hap pend with all that money? And now the taxpayers are to bail them out 700 trillion dollars. Trillion………….That is 10.000 for every Household they said. You got to be kidding.
God is going to put into the office of the Present who He sits fit. Time for Jesus to return.
Love Irene
TiffanyIts 700 billion.
Still a lot of money though!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:33) Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 25 2008,20:29) There is no way that I would ever vote for Obama. I have been a conservative for years. But I just don't know, who got us in such a mess. And all is not over yet, either. Who knows what will happen with the Stock market. What hap pend with all that money? And now the taxpayers are to bail them out 700 trillion dollars. Trillion………….That is 10.000 for every Household they said. You got to be kidding.
God is going to put into the office of the Present who He sits fit. Time for Jesus to return.
Love Irene
TiffanyIts 700 billion.
Still a lot of money though!
WJ
You know what and they are stil have not desided what to do. I am glad I have no more children to raise and we can help ours as much as we can.
Its 8:00 P,M. time for O'Reilly
IreneQuote (Tiffany @ Sep. 26 2008,11:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:33) Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 25 2008,20:29) There is no way that I would ever vote for Obama. I have been a conservative for years. But I just don't know, who got us in such a mess. And all is not over yet, either. Who knows what will happen with the Stock market. What hap pend with all that money? And now the taxpayers are to bail them out 700 trillion dollars. Trillion………….That is 10.000 for every Household they said. You got to be kidding.
God is going to put into the office of the Present who He sits fit. Time for Jesus to return.
Love Irene
TiffanyIts 700 billion.
Still a lot of money though!
WJ
You know what and they are stil have not desided what to do. I am glad I have no more children to raise and we can help ours as much as we can.
Its 8:00 P,M. time for O'Reilly
Irene
TiffanyAmen to O'reilly!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2008,22:09) I know little of American politics, but to say that it would be cool to see an African American as president someday, if only to prove that the USA gives all 'a fair go' (as we say in this part of the world). Of course it should really be that the best man gets the job, and race shouldn't be a factor at all as that is akin to judging by the outward appearance. If Obama doesn't get the job because of his race, then I think the USA is not voting in a fair manner. If he doesn't get the job because McCain seems to be more fit to rule, or because Obama is dodgy, then fair enough.
Greetings t8………Iam glad to see we can agree that the best man for the job should prevail…The unfortunate circumstance is we have two candidates and neither can claim the moral highground which is essential for leadership…One is an acclaimed war hero and the other brings his oratory skills along with his blackness to the table…In my estimation neither qualify….FYI America is the only country in the world that has abolished slavery and Black americans are blessed with freedom and wealth,their failure to rise to their potential in this great land is a result of their choice in leadership….The american taxpayer has invested over a trillion dollars on the war on poverty and all we get is more complaining about racism….To empower the blacks because a black candidate happens to be a candidate would be folly….God will have his hand in this election Iam sure and I his judgement is on this nation…..Pray for America..Theodorej I do agree with you about our choice of candidates for President. As a Citizen of this country however, my obligation is to vote for one. Have you watched what is going on at the White House and Wall-street? If this continues we might not have a country to rule. I have been glued to the T.V. so I will see you later.
IreneQuote (Tiffany @ Sep. 27 2008,06:17) Theodorej I do agree with you about our choice of candidates for President. As a Citizen of this country however, my obligation is to vote for one. Have you watched what is going on at the White House and Wall-street? If this continues we might not have a country to rule. I have been glued to the T.V. so I will see you later.
Irene
Greeting Irene…..I also have a sense of responsibility as a citizen and for that reason I will vote for the candidate with the most substance of character as well as life experience..Gods hand is on this nation,and our leaders reflect who we are….The american people want to hear smooth things ( lies )….There will still be a country,however,the quality of life will be determined by the hearts and minds of the people…If we can recapture our character of years gone by and bend our knees and bow our heads and ask God to heal our land….He Will..Quote Hi David We live in a different world.
Yes, today homosexuality is fine. This is fine, that's fine, etc.
The world has changed. Has God changed? Has God's opinion on things changed?When Jesus was questioned by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, he stated: “My kingdom is no part of this world.”
In response to a question as to Jesus’ role, he told the governor: “For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.” (John 18:36, 37)Jesus stuck unwaveringly to that assignment. When the Devil offered him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, he refused.
When the people wanted to make him king, he withdrew. (Matt. 4:8-10; John 6:15)Jesus referred to the Devil as “the ruler of the world” and said that the Devil ‘had no hold on him.’ (John 14:30)
His followers could see that Jesus did not seek involvement for himself or his followers in Rome’s political system but that he was fully occupied with declaring “the good news of the kingdom of God.”—Luke 4:43.
So they followed his course and had nothing to do with politics. They looked to God's kingdom as the only lasting true hope.Quote I agree with t8 that we have opportunity and responsibility to take part in influencing government and law. I agree to some extent.
PHILIPPIANS 1:7
“It is altogether right for me to think this regarding all of YOU, on account of my having YOU in my heart, all of YOU being sharers with me in the undeserved kindness, both in my [prison] bonds and in the defending and legally establishing of the good news.”But I don't believe it is by becoming a part of the world and becoming a part of Satan's system of things.
Their principal desire should be to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom of God. Legal action that they take is not because they are social agitators or legal reformers. Their objective is to ‘defend and legally establish the good news,’ even as was true of the apostle Paul.
Walter Tarnopolsky, Canada's leading legal authority on civil liberties, stated:
“The best testing of the standard of civil liberties in a society is the best way that society treats its dissenters and minorities. Few dissenters, and no other religious minorities, have put Canada to the test quite so acutely in this century as have the Witnesses of Jehovah.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…._CanadaWe've gone to the supreme court of the U.S. like 50 times, and other supreme courts as well. We almost always win. And it is almost always concerning freedom of speech and freedom of preaching.
But it always starts with us being attacked for following God's laws.To actively choose to take part in the affairs of the world and leadership roles of the world or of the governments that God has determined to destroy, seems quite different. (dan 2:44)
Quote When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Prov. 29:2
True, One day, we'll have a “righteous” one in authority and the people will rejoice. Until then, we're stuck between bad and not quite as bad.Quote Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are “ordained of God”. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister (diakonos, the same Greek word for deacon or servant) of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:1-4
Yes, God allows such authorities to exist so we don't have chaos. And we should follow their laws (except when they violate God's laws) because God is the one allowing them to exist, for a time.
But like the early Christians, we are to be “no part of the world.”
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