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Quote (david @ May 14 2010,18:26) Quote the Blood witnessed as the shedding of blood as in what seals the deal, when we read hebrews we read that everything was sealed in blood, like in every law Moses sprinkles the blood of animals on the book and on the people. and than hebrews says how much more is the blood of the Son of God? and Water is comparable to eternal life, never ending, colorless, never being thirsty again. The Holy Spirit to forever be with us, it is God in Us, aruond Us, always guiding Us. –Dennison (SF)
But are the blood and the water, persons? The argument is that since the holy spirit “helps” “guides” etc, it MUST be a person. Well the blood and the water bear witness or testify. Must they be persons? They are not people.
Well i see the verse as stating that the proof, or the testimony of what happened at that time are all one.The shedding of the blood of Christ. the blood came from Christ. Just as the blood of the old testament for scrafises came from lambs.
The water which could represent alot of things, which is the eternal life, or baptism.
and the holy Spirit.
Maybe your taking the word to literal.
In a difference sense its talking about certain events. first the blood, enternal life, holy spirit.Could it mean that being washed in the blood of Christ, which gives us enternal life, and walking with the Holy spirit all are one?
Simply Forgiven, to be clear, I do not think the blood or water are literal people.
I was pointing out that personification exists in the Bible. And you can even find it existing with other trinity's: Blood, water, holy spirit. And you can even find that it says these things are “testifying” or bearing witness. It's called personification.
I think it was Thinker that asked how a non-person can testify? Well, here we have examples.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 21 2010,07:41) Quote (david @ May 20 2010,00:42) “How does a non person “testify” of someone?”–thinker Are “The Blood” and “The Water” persons? Yet, they are said to testify or to bear witness. And they are in agreement. Are they persons Thinker? What do you think? Is your logic sound? Do you use personification every day like most humans?
DavidThis is weak indeed. Blood and water are inanimate objects and cannot move, speak, hear, understand, love, comfort, strengthen, give life, create, Etc. Etc.
A dead dog testifys that it once lived!
Is that all you have? Find some inanimate objects or anything that can do the things that the Holy Spirit who has his own distinct identity does, and you might have a case. Otherwise you are stuck with the unambiguous proof that the Holy Spirit is a living person sent from the Father and Jesus!
WJ
WJ,
Thinker asked a question that had FALSE LOGIC IN IT.I showed his false logic.
So you attack me on other grounds.
His logic was false.
He asked how an inanimate thing can “testify.”
Well, WJ, unless you consider water to be a person, then I have used a Bible example to prove his logic wrong. And so you attack me for it?
Quote This is weak indeed. Blood and water are inanimate objects and cannot move, speak, hear, understand, love, comfort, strengthen, give life, create BUT THEY APPARENTLY CAN “TESTIFY.” AND THAT WAS THE QUESTION AT HAND, WASN'T IT? (So attack me on something I am not arguing…good job!) Can you at least use the word “personification”? I know you understand this word, WJ. You do understand this word?
I think I shall act as you do for a while….
WJ,
Your Trinity is turning you into a nunce.I am pleading with you to see the Truth and renounce your Abomination.
By all means report me. Why are you saying it – Do it!
God's name, in Hebrew is 'YHVH' by the Tetragramaton.
God's name in our English language translation is 'I Am'.So, WJ, which language do you speak?
Denying the speaking of God's name is as bad as denying his name altogether.
You got yourself into that corner by trying to trick me because I asked you for the name of the Holy Spirit, which you claim it had.
you still do not answer. Can you please tell me why? However, even God gives way to his oppossers, I give way for you not to answer.
As for the Dove, are you saying that I have to post images, or links to images, of depictions of the Holy Spirit as a Dove – Really? This is incredible [fake] ignorance on your part.
Pentecostals believe in and worship the Holy Spirit and their books, churchs, literature, etc., all depict the Holy Spirit as a Dove. What are you saying – that you need proof if that…
Many others, in their base ignorance, do the same, not realising what they are doing, just following the crowd.
“Alighted LIKE a Dove” – not – “Alighted AS a Dove”
WJ,
You are angry because your own Trinitarian brothers have caught themselves out by depicting the Holy Spirit as a bird, a Dove, rather than as a person, which is your, and their, claim.
WJ, the Truth will ALWAYS out.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,17:56) WJ, Do I know who the father of the lie is?…, WJ, I know who Your Father is!
Very mean, very mean.Tisk Tisk,
Bad boy bad!
Behave!
Sit boy, sit! good boy!lol, just messing with you.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,18:42) Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,17:56) WJ, Do I know who the father of the lie is?…, WJ, I know who Your Father is!
Very mean, very mean.Tisk Tisk,
Bad boy bad!
Behave!
Sit boy, sit! good boy!lol, just messing with you.
WelcomeSimpleForgiven! When you say to someone whoever it is bad boy, bad boy you are judging that person….That Paul tells us not to do. , even if another person does it, no two wrongs make a right. I read some of your post, and the ones that I did read, you very seldom give Scripture in what you believe. In 2 Thess. 5:21 it tells us to prove all things.
David tried to do that….Out of your post's I read it's not clear to me what you belief. Does it matter if you believe in a false doctrine or not? Oh, yes. There is a Scripture in Math.15:9 that says this” In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines and commandments of men.
Do you know why it says that? I will be glad to explain it to you, if you care to. So tell me if you do, and the next time I come here, I will.
Peace and Love IreneQuote hey david! what do you think about the Holy Spirit point i mentoined?
about God being all in all.SF, I can't seem to find exactly what you are talking about. Could you quote it or point me to the page?
There are many threads on the holy spirit. I really wanted this thread to be about Matthew 28:19 and to discuss whether this is “proof” of a trinity.
Quote (david @ May 23 2010,05:44) There are many threads on the holy spirit. I really wanted this thread to be about Matthew 28:19 and to discuss whether this is “proof” of a trinity.
O.K. David, I will go to the other tread which I already did, I could not find my post there, no wonder it is here….sorry good luck.
like my new users name, it was my grandfathers name….IreneMany besides WJ would agree with his words:
“. . . Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.”
I don't think it is. It is proof that they believed in “the Father” and the “Son” and the “holy spirit.”
The fact that 3 are listed together does no equal “unambiguous evidence” for a trinity.1 JOHN 5:7-8
“For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”Here we have 3 that are testifying, or bearing witness: “the spirit” “the water” and “the blood.” These three are said to be in “agreement.”
What does the fact that 3 are mentioned prove? Before, “Thinker” asked how something that is not a person can “testify.” Well, here's one example. Another example is where Jesus said his “works” testify or bear witness about who he was. I'm getting off my point.
I think 1 John 5:7-8 is equally “unambiguous evidence” that the early Apostles believed in a trinity made up of the three mentioned, who are in agreement, and who testify.
We need stronger evidence people!
Quote (Arnold @ May 22 2010,23:21) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2010,18:42) Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,17:56) WJ, Do I know who the father of the lie is?…, WJ, I know who Your Father is!
Very mean, very mean.Tisk Tisk,
Bad boy bad!
Behave!
Sit boy, sit! good boy!lol, just messing with you.
WelcomeSimpleForgiven! When you say to someone whoever it is bad boy, bad boy you are judging that person….That Paul tells us not to do. , even if another person does it, no two wrongs make a right. I read some of your post, and the ones that I did read, you very seldom give Scripture in what you believe. In 2 Thess. 5:21 it tells us to prove all things.
David tried to do that….Out of your post's I read it's not clear to me what you belief. Does it matter if you believe in a false doctrine or not? Oh, yes. There is a Scripture in Math.15:9 that says this” In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines and commandments of men.
Do you know why it says that? I will be glad to explain it to you, if you care to. So tell me if you do, and the next time I come here, I will.
Peace and Love Irene
Thats it!!! i am now grouping you with Terrarica, and Nick.
in my mind you make no sense!Now i know that your a judgemental person. My claim on this is by the fact that you even responded to that post that i made to someone else. This is ease dropping, or in other words jumpin into something that has nothing to do with you.
First of all i was joking. second of all, you shouldnt take sides, you should be humble,
and your scripture makes no connection with what im saying. why because i was not being judgemental, i was joking.
Believe what you want, i will start ignoring your post, becuase you cant seem to understand what anyone says.
So if its not clear what i believe, how can you state that i believe in a false doctrine.
I have no idea who you are, your age, yoru face, nothing.
Your words show me that you like to be aggresive to me,
You take any oppurtunity to judge me, and make comments that i believe in a false doctrine, which makes not connections to what my response says.You like to debate about the Trinity, even though i dont mention it.
You do not come in peace, but to spark debate to a innocent comment.
and if it was love, than you wouldnt try to call me out into a debate. Becuase read 1st corinthians 13:5 thats says Love does not provoke.
You are provoking me, which shows me you do not do it out of love. Maybe out of Good intentions, and you believe what your doing is right,
but rather you are insulting me,
So note: that most likely i will ignore your post, doesnt mean that just because i ignore it, i agree or validate anything you say.
I do love you very much,
Change the way you act with me,
and than i wll respond to you,
because to respond to you right now, is just a waste of my time and sleep.
Thank you,
hey David,
Im referring to this.
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 21 2010,07:19) Quote (david @ May 14 2010,02:14) Let's look at this in point form: POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
DavidAnd none of the above negates that the Father and Jesus himself can do all those things and become all those things you speak of.
Are you saying God who is a Spirit cannot fill you?
Are you saying God is not referred to as a “Rock” a “shield” a “Buckler” a “Strong tower” a “fortress” a “hiding place” a “Keeper” Etc. Etc.
There are many impersonal metaphors ascribed to God. So what does your post prove?
God is Love, God is a fire, and can also fill us as scriptures clearly teach.
You completely ignore the many scriptures that speak of the acts of the Holy Spirit without the mention of the Father and Jesus. You also ignore many scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is personal!
Does an impersonal or amorphous force or power have its own “Temple”?
What? know ye not that “your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you“, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19
Oh but wait, we also see our body is the “Temple of God”…
Know ye not that “ye are the temple of God“, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for “YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, AND WALK IN THEM: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 1 Cor 6:16
But according to David, God doesn't dwell in us and walk in us as a person for God cannot fill us for if he did then he would be an “It” or a “Thing” or some amorphous force or power!
The Temple of God or of the Holy Spirit is where God dwells. We are a habitation for God both individually and corporately.
Jesus said…
And I will pray the Father, and “he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (paraklētos)”, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, “AND SHALL BE IN YOU”. John 14:16, 17
What do you say about the following scripture David?
”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
If the Spirit is being called Lord then the Spirit is a person.
David, your own Bible says “Now Jehovah is the Spirit…“
So yes the Bible does say the Holy Spirit is God!
Read the context David for this verse is calling the Spirit of the living God, the Lord!
WJ
WJ,I think your post helped me understand how to respond to Davids point, and some elses point that
the holy spirit does not have a throne.I been trying to really refer to scriptures about the throne the holy spirit.
and just like you have said, Holy spirit doesnt need one, its in you.
God never meant for man kind to be seperated from himself.
The whole point is for God to be your everything,
and that he is even inside you.did you know that your body is the darkest place in the world literally.
because there is no light in it. it only can come through the eyes and other openings that can let light in.but literally there is no light in ur body.
but God says in revelations, that there will be NO SHADOW. that God will be our light.
that means even inside us, which is the very temple of the Holy Spirit will be filled with light.
So to have a response, to the debate about the thrones. maybe thats the whole point,
the Lord our God, the King of this universe, inside us forever. Making the very body his temple. a forever union for God and his beloved.
Just a point to bring outoh and david, i have been procrastinating. I know i still havent responded. but for me to respond with so much detail i would have to take alot of time for it, which i have not.
What do ya think?
just curious by the way, what are your thoughts about it, im not trying to literally debate you! so lets not get aggresive.
Arnold,
I have to agree with SF.
I saw the joke and accepted the adminition.
You know that I am 'raw'. I say so myself. If someone says I am going a little too far then I recheck myself and see if it is so.
I will not always agree because there are times for vehemency, and certain person's only understand that language:
Talk to each in their own language…but with a mind to teach them the true language, the language of Truth and Love [to the glory of God and Christ].
To Simple Forgiven and Just Askin! To prove the Scriptures is not a child's play, which you two seem to make. I am gladly stay with Nick and Terrarica. Nick is a Administrator here and you have no respect for that either… sham on you…..sorry David, but I needed to reply to those people….
IreneQuote (Arnold @ May 24 2010,09:01) To Simple Forgiven and Just Askin! To prove the Scriptures is not a child's play, which you two seem to make. I am gladly stay with Nick and Terrarica. Nick is a Administrator here and you have no respect for that either… sham on you…..sorry David, but I needed to reply to those people….
Irene
Irene, you love making those Knife comments dont you.Your just like little chicken who claims the sky is falling.
If your going to make a conclusion, prove it. I said a joke refering not to scripture but to a comment, so your conclusion is dismissed, denied, and dismissed.
Again the same comment and acustation. I have respect for nick and maybe i got into a emotional rampage, but for sure Now i perfer Nick than you any day!
Sham or Shame? i dont know who sham is. But i do not have shame, i did nothing wrong.
If you dont like it, keep it to your self.
Have you not learn any manners?
If you have nothing Good to say, keep it to your self.I for sure will not tolerate your insults.
Because i have not judged you or insulted personally.
Yet you make personal statements in a biblical forum. you should refrain from that.With Holy Peace and with Gods love
Soy nada sin Amor hermana tienes que prender como comportar con otros, (Look it up)
Ani Ahaba Atenna
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