Matthew 28:19–what does it prove?

[RokkaMan]

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“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8) (WJ, I'm curious also what you think of this, being baptized with holy spirit and fire, and all the verses above.) Dennison, I do not think the holy spirit is a person. Above it is listed with many impersonal things. (If WJ gives proof that the holy spirit is a person because it is listed with God and Jesus, then are my examples also proof of the opposite?) Back to your question: Quote How can the Holy Spirit give orders if its an impersonal things, its like a glass of water trying me to drink it. Well let me ask you: How can the holy spirit bear witness if it's an impersonal thing? Also, how can blood and water bear witness if they are impersonal things? “For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” Let me ask: How can impersonal things be in “agreement”? Is it personification, or are “the blood” and “the water” also persons? What do you think?

David let me just address a few things.

You are looking at the context of scripture way too literal.

First off: Baptising with the holy spirit and fire? what does baptize mean?

to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying.

He will cleanse the spirite with the holy spirit and fire. Fire being conviction or condemnation…you choose.

And you mentioned water and blood and the holy spirit all being impersonal? You are very wrong my friend. Water is the one ingredient in this world that is necissary for life. It is a perfect substance. Is there anything in the universe like water? It's a phenomenon like fire, the human mind cannot understand phenomenon..therefore you cannot say water is impersonal.

And blood is also an essential part of life, is is actually living (cells). So blood and water are both strongly alive and can bear witness through the intellect that governs them which is God

Now a chair is impersonal, it'll let anyone sit on it.

But did you know, your body will reject certain types of foreign blood from blood transfusions?

Did you also know if you take a sample of your blood and drive it 10miles away from you…your blood responds to any stimuli you undergo?

It's alive! and personal…

And like i said, water is a phenonmenon just like fire…we will never understand it's origins. So you cannot say it's impersonal especially when it is the core of all life on this planet.

There are actually plenty of spots that say the holy spirit is personal and is a person.

[david]

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Frequency is not revelant

–dennison

Sounds like something that someone who only has one scripture would say.

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No where does it say that God loves you. find a verse that says God loves you. in first person. As in God: “I love you”

Scriptures such as 1 John 4:7-12 make it obvious that God loves his followers, and that “his love” is made perfect in us.
My point (technicalities aside) is that:
LOVE–WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE JEHOVAH AND JESUS. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
LOVE–BETWEEN FATHER AND SON. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON LOVE MAN. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

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If you are a Math guy than your trying to limit God to an understanding. you cant do that.

When I say I'm a math guy in reference to the Bible I think what I mean is:
IF there is one scripture that “seems” to maybe say one thing, and 50 scriptures that very clearly say something else, I will always go with the math, the 50. When you say “frequency is not relevant” I think frequency of clear scriptures against one scripture in question is relevant.

[david]

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I agree that the statment that WJ made about ONE scripture would be impossible to tell if the Apostle believed in that or not.

–dennison.

where did he say this. Case closed.

[david]

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To say that its only Gods finger… i mean a finger limits God.

dennison, I did not say it's “only” God's finger. The Bible used that word to refer to God's holy spirit. I think you are comparing the strength of your finger to God's. That is silly.

[RokkaMan]

All you gotta do is simply google…is the holy spirit a person.

There's a smorgisborg of information and websites that pull out scripture of scripture undoubtedly proving the holy spirit is a person as oppose to a force or power.

The qualifications for a person are that they have

1. A mind – able to think and act upon their thinking

2. their own will – self identity

3. and emotions – able to react cognitively

The holy spirit strongly shares these traits, even though he shares the will of The Father.

Jesus Christ also said he shared the will of his Father, yet demonstrated his own will and we know he was a person.

Also what is the definition of Blasphemy

an act of cursing or reviling God.

The Father YHVH himself said if you blaspheme the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven.

But if you blaspheme the son, it will be forgiven (seeing as it was the son's purpose to be insulted)

So that right there is The Father's claim to the son and holy spirit both being God…he attributed blaspheming against their names. You can't blaspheme anything but God.

I think that one piece of scripture ends your debate.

The Holy Spirit is a person, and is God.

If that is true, we can include him in the Godhead with Jesus and The Father.

[david]

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Its called the Holy Ghost for a reason,

Actually, it's not called the “holy Ghost.” Well, it was in the KJ or other old Bibles perhaps when that word “Ghost” had a slightly different meaning. No Bible today in modern English would translate it that way.

“spirit” has many meanings and can or can not convey personality.
“Ghost” always conveys personality, and today commonly refers to dead people.

[RokkaMan]

Bump for Dave to respond ^^

[david]

. . . .my conclusion is.
That your Right: That one verse does not prove that the early Apostles believed in the Trinity.
–Dennison

That is all I set out for in this thread. WJ systematically says that this scripture is clear evidence of the trinity. Others believe it is among the best evidence of the trinity.

I believe it proves we can count to three.

[david]

sorry Rokka,
I am still responding to things on page 4. If I jump around, people will accuse me of not answering their questions. I'm almost done, but it's 2:00 AM here, so I will come back to this tommorow. But I will just finish responding to Dennison.

[david]

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And it is also an error to say that Jesus's mandate doesnt prove anything about the Trinity. Its not a suggestion, its an order.

–dennison

I do not know why people keep saying this. I agree that Jesus command to “Go” and make disciples is an order. Elsewhere in scritpure it actually says he “ordered” us to preach. But the order was to Go and make disciples. The order was not to believe in a trinity. He was not explaining a trinity, but ordering us to go and make disciples and how to baptize them.

OK, I need sleep.

Bye.

[RokkaMan]

Trinity is a beginning of understanding God's manifestation to us(creation)…but at the end of the day, it's all god. God is everything.

People say 1+1+1 = 3 not one…but do you realize Jesus cannot add to what the father has already established? Nor can the holy spirit add to Jesus and The Father.

because

They all SHARE the same will.

So the equation should look more like

1x1x1 (express working together instead of compiling)

woah woah but wait, what does 1x1x1 =?

1x1x1 = 1

That's a better trinitarian equation.

But since god is everything it really should look like

1x1x1x1x1x(infinity) = 1 (or God)

Because a perfect God can manifest himself in anyway at any point to anyone…he doesn't have to limit himself to just 3 persons…because each person will still and always be God.

[RokkaMan]

The point of the above is…even though God has manifested himself to us in 3 persons…

Lets not be quick to conform him into a trinity of being.

He's God….

He's everything….

If he decided to add another manifestation tomorrow, who could stop him and say he's wrong?

No one…

so don't fit God into foolish doctrine/conformities.

The whole purpose of God's manifestations to us was to reconcile us back to God in the first place.

Do you realize that if we never sinned, there would be no need for a son or holy spirit manifestation unto creation?

So God's manifestations are a product of his love that we stepped on by sinning in the first place.

So lets end the debates.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 13 2010,16:27)

Quote Hi David, I think im going to have answer your response in two fashions because your right we did go off in two different tangents. 1. The Priority is to prove if that one scripture proves if The early Apostles and church Fathers believed in the Trinity 2. If the Holy Spirit really is part of an co-equal entity, a Trinity. Hi SimplyForgiven, WJ, response took a long time.  Your post is long.  It's getting late.  I posted this here as a reminder to respond to you, since I don't want to forget about your post on page 4. But really, regarding what you say about, I didn't set out to prove either thing above.  They both are separate topics and have their own threads I'm sure. I wanted to look at Matthew 28:19 specifically and ask: What does this prove?  Do other similar scriptures that mention three prove anything?  Do other scriptures that repeatedly mention 2 prove anything?  I know I've gone off on tangents and these ideas are all related, but they've all been covered.  I just get frustrated when someone who has the ability to count to 3, gets all excited about it.  I can count to 3 in Manderin, but I don't go telling you that.  OK, I just did.  Anywho, it's getting late…

Just a quick response since i happen to be awake at 4am.
Is that before your rebuttle to my last rebuttle, you mentioned that we are argueing that counting three in a statement is what we are argueing if it is enough evidence to suppor the Trinity doctrine.

actually trust me when i say this, is that WJ statements have had no way of influencing my responses, actually i didnt even see it until i posted mine first, and than i saw that WJ actually posted his also.

But probably that should give you a clue, in how you sound to be coming across in my understanding.
I want to respond, i really want to respond to your first rebuttle about what the Holy Spirit is, but i haven found the time to do so.

But I did want to mention one that that you stated.
That you wanted to focus on that Verse, and im trying my best to understand, that how is this verse proving trinity, just because it mentions 3.

and my next focus is to in my response to impersonal things that you mentioned, such as joy, peace, and etc. but God is those things. its like without it he wouldnt be God. So what is wrong with the fact that God wants to be everything, yes is still a personality all at one time. Its like God talking out of a tornadoe. is that wrong for God to express himself through elemental respresentation…Yet all those representation are called to be the Holy Spirit and yet the Holy spirit Comes from God.

the Blood witnessed as the shedding of blood as in what seals the deal, when we read hebrews we read that everything was sealed in blood, like in every law Moses sprinkles the blood of animals on the book and on the people. and than hebrews says how much more is the blood of the Son of God? and Water is comparable to eternal life, never ending, colorless, never being thirsty again. The Holy Spirit to forever be with us, it is God in Us, aruond Us, always guiding Us.
But i will extend just like you did all in one post, just on that one subject later.

Anyways….

what i really wanted to say was that do you want to shift the topic and interpret what Jesus was saying and why he said it and the reach a conclusion if that one verse is enough to conclude that there is a trinity or not?

AGain JW has not influneced my dicisions or reponses.
If we both agreed in one aspect, maybe one can conclude that maybe there are points that lead our thoughts to the same conclusion.

but I have a problem with making doctrine based on one scripture, and also a problem with making doctrine on 50 vs 1 scripture.

And that i know that God a purpose for every word and intent in the bible. So again, how can we limit ourselves with siding with 50 when God wrote 51.

Get what im saying?

I get you.

But i see limitations there.

But my question again, do you want to shift the focus and interpret what Jesus was sayin literaly and than draw conclusions or just hold account that Jesus mentioned three? and not 4 and 5 and 6. or one or two.

Thx again for repsonding.
And taking the time,
i hope im not frustrating you
oh and i apologize for any grammer and spelling errors
pls realize im ussually start to write around 4 am…
im kindof not at my best lol.

God bless
much love brother.
my response i will post tommorow if i have a chance.

[NickHassan]

Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,20:33)

The point of the above is…even though God has manifested himself to us in 3 persons… Lets not be quick to conform him into a trinity of being. He's God…. He's everything…. If he decided to add another manifestation tomorrow, who could stop him and say he's wrong? No one… so don't fit God into foolish doctrine/conformities. The whole purpose of God's manifestations to us was to reconcile us back to God in the first place. Do you realize that if we never sinned, there would be no need for a son or holy spirit manifestation unto creation? So God's manifestations are a product of his love that we stepped on by sinning in the first place. So lets end the debates.

Hi RM,
God is one.
He filled His Son with His Spirit and spoke and worked among men.

[karmarie]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 12 2010,17:11)

KARMARIE: Thx im glad to being able to partcipate! Idk abuot Jesus being literaly in us…. in scrpitures it says the He is by the right hand of Power and that he is in intercession for us day and night without ceasing.   When it comes to the trinity… you cant limit God to one idea (as in we cannot limit God to our own understanding, like try to imagine God… or eternity… your really cant its to much) … i mean its God! its like time, space, and matter are all co-existing…. and Water which is ice, liquid, and vapor… all one source.    My Point is that God is God, discover who He is with your bible, in your closet, you and him alone. Dont draw up your own conclusions… God is real.  Ask Him.  Pray, pray and pray.   He loves it when you seek Him.  Thats why the scriptures are there, for us to read and take time with the author of it all.

Thanks for those words Dennison

Wise words too you are right God is beyond our imperfect understanding our small minds (like an ant trying to figure us out only way more than that) I mean how can we evn attempt to create what has been created here (apart from some plastic wind up toy that repeats itself over and over and then eventually breaks!) I dont actually even try to figure it all out (I dont even read these debate threads usually) because I dont know so how can someone else know for sure? God is Spirit God desires those who worship him in spirit and in truth, with our whole heart God is love our Father in Heaven.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 13 2010,20:15)

. . . .my conclusion is. That your Right: That one verse does not prove that the early Apostles believed in the Trinity. –Dennison That is all I set out for in this thread.  WJ systematically says that this scripture is clear evidence of the trinity.  Others believe it is among the best evidence of the trinity. I believe it proves we can count to three.

But bro i have been saying that for awhile now.
I mean we could argue that hey it was important enough for Matthew to write it, and believe in it. But the only way to know for sure is to study their lives.

but your second statment still drives me nuts, because again, im saying something different for what your saying. Im saying is that it doesnt meant that the Apostles believed in it, and it could still be used to prove certain points of the Trinity. IF we are discussing belief of the Apostles you are right, if we are talking abuot evidence of the Trinity, than we really need to interpret what Jesus is saying.

5 W's time. who, what, when, where and Why?
What is baptiizim.
why three names?
diciples?
teaching?
you know what i mean?

im tired also…..

im going to sleep lol

Good night God bless

[NickHassan]

Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,20:27)

Trinity is a beginning of understanding God's manifestation to us(creation)…but at the end of the day, it's all god. God is everything. People say 1+1+1 = 3 not one…but do you realize Jesus cannot add to what the father has already established? Nor can the holy spirit add to Jesus and The Father. because They all SHARE the same will. So the equation should look more like 1x1x1 (express working together instead of compiling) woah woah but wait, what does 1x1x1 =? 1x1x1 = 1 That's a better trinitarian equation. But since god is everything it really should look like 1x1x1x1x1x(infinity) = 1 (or God) Because a perfect God can manifest himself in anyway at any point to anyone…he doesn't have to limit himself to just 3 persons…because each person will still and always be God.

Hi RM,
The vain imaginations of men came up with trinity and have idolised it ever since.

But it has no basis in scriptural teaching.

[SimplyForgiven]

Hey David again… its 5am now..
ok bro. I just started reading Jws first response and than yours.
Ok i think im starting to understand you.
You really made a puzzle around this that can make you easily accusable.
i Like how you mentioned that both the greeting and the mt. are validated.

but thats my point exactly. Im not going to base everything i believe on one scripture but in the bible entirely.
oh and that point about case closed, i dont remember writing that, i think that was a typo about Jw. i forgot what i really meant about that.

when i mention frequency. i metioned it was not valid because it was against one scriputre. either or is not vaild. All scripture has to come togethor as a whole. 1 vs 50 or 50 vs 1, not safe. in revelations it say not to cut a single word, and u know the rest.

I still want to go back and inerpret the verse since thats the topic of the debate and than draw conclusions.
Hey than again, idk what Trinitariians believe… i guess the Trinity, than again you can never be to sure.
But isnt it the other way around… If they say that that the three names mentioned are one,
than its not three, it is one.
as in 1x1x1=1
not that im disregarding the number three, but thats what it means. that they are one,

buenas noches!

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,21:41)

Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,20:33) The point of the above is…even though God has manifested himself to us in 3 persons… Lets not be quick to conform him into a trinity of being. He's God…. He's everything…. If he decided to add another manifestation tomorrow, who could stop him and say he's wrong? No one… so don't fit God into foolish doctrine/conformities. The whole purpose of God's manifestations to us was to reconcile us back to God in the first place. Do you realize that if we never sinned, there would be no need for a son or holy spirit manifestation unto creation? So God's manifestations are a product of his love that we stepped on by sinning in the first place. So lets end the debates. Hi RM, God is one. He filled His Son with His Spirit and spoke and worked among men.

Yes I agree. Jesus and The Holy Spirit being a part of that one.

And when we die and enter the kingdom, we too will be a part of that one.

Sin seperated us, Jesus brought us back.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 13 2010,03:42)

You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.

David

How does what you say prove the Spirit is not a person?

You can be filled with God! Jesus is the bread of life. God is a consuming fire. Jesus is the wisdom of God. God is love. Jesus is the truth. God is a rock. Jesus is a rock. All the qualities that you mention are qualities of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You denegrate the Spirit and make him less than an Angel or a man who is a living being or person. The Holy Spirit is also living and gives life.

The Spirit is not some amorphous impersonal force or power.

In your response to my post you completely skimmed over the scriptures that prove the personality of the Holy Spirit which I will get to later.

WJ

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