Matthew 28:19–what does it prove?

[SimplyForgiven]

Con mucho amor,

Dennison

[david]

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David, Maybe I was a little too subtle for you. Do you read any of my posts? Do you not yet know what I stand for, what I believe, who my God is? My point is… That the WHOLE of Scriptures, the whole Bible, shows there is no such thing as a Trinity Godhead.

Hi JA.
Yes, I thought you felt that way. I was confused by your statements. Sorry for the misunderstanding. For some reason I thought that you were accusing me of not quoting those scriptures in context or something (a familiar accusation when people have no response.) Again, sorry.

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When you enter this forum, over time, do you build a picture in your mind of the type of each person who posts here?

Sorry, JA, I just haven't been paying that close attention lately. I'm not on here enough. Since we have never had any real conversations, I'm sure you understand. As for your questions, I really try to keep threads on topic, and even this post that I'm making now annoys me, because it's off subject.

David

[david]

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QUESTION 1:  If these three are a trinity, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2? Thats a strange question.

Hi Dennison.
First, I don't think it is a strange question.  If 3 make up the triune God, why is it always 2 that are mentioned?  You don't find that a little odd?  You don't find it odd that in Paul's letters, we are given greetings “from” God AND Jesus, but not the holy spirit?

Dennison, your argument that you give is that God goes by many names.  But in the greetings, we find this phrase 7 TIMES:
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
Now, you can say that it isn't referring to two individuals, but that the Father and Lord Jesus are the same one, but why is it so often listed this way and not including the holy spirit, if indeed the holy spirit is equally God?

As a side note, does the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
Expressions such as this occur 1000 times with reference to Jehovah. (I've checked them individually.)
Does the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occur 455 times, as it does of “Jehovah your God”?  No, it never occurs, ever.  Why?  Why is it that no scripture says clearly and plainly that the holy spirit is God?  It is because it is clear and plain that God’s holy spirit, is not God.

Sorry, back to your comments.

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I believe that God is “I am, That i Am”  and “YAWH” (idk how to spell it right) and that he is Jehovah-Rafa-Jireh and etc.  El Shaddai?   I mean wow there are alot of names for God in the old Testament.  So wouldnt it be just as wrong to only name and mention one through out the old testament without mentioning the other.  isnt that also a disrespect?

First, I would like to say that God's personal name (Jehovah or Yahweh) occurs about 7000 times, which is insanely more than all of his “titles” combined!  The answer to your question: “Isn't that also a disrespect” has to be “no” whether you believe as I do or as you do.  Since it isn't disrespectful, the question becomes “why”?  I think it's because it is God's holy spirit, and not God himself that is being referred to.  You think it's because in saying “God” that this encompasses his holy spirit.
Both are actually right, but I don't believe that God's holy spirit is also God.  God's holy spirit is once referred to in a parallel account as his finger.  It's also called his arm in the Hebrew scriptures.  (It is the power or force by which he accomplishes his will.)  A finger or arm, is a part of a person, but it is not the person and it is not equal to the person.  That is my point.

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I think its irreverent how many are called, because its all the same Lord.

Dennison, I am about to provide reasons why I don't believe that.  But, that is not what this thread is about.  It is questioning whether listing 3 together proves anything?  Does it?

How many times does the Bible “tell”us that Jehovah is God?  Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah God–50 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah a God–1 time
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time

How many times is Jesus called “God”
About 4-9 times, depending on interpretation, and 9 is a stretch.

How many times is the holy spirit specifically called “God”?
I await your answer.

DID JESUS FOLLOWERS WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD?
The holy spirit is never worshiped in scripture, and neither does any verse of Scripture command such worship. This is odd if the holy spirit is truly a co-equal and co-eternal member of a triune “God” worthy of worship. If “God” is worthy of worship, and “God” exists in three persons, then shouldn’t each “God” person be worthy of worship? Then why is this idea not found in the Scripture?
How can this be harmonized with the belief that the holy spirit is equal with both the Father and the Son?

This is what my research has found on the holy spirit and the trinity:

WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS?  
LUKE 10:22
“who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”
You’d think if the holy spirit was God, he would be included in this.  For some reason, only the Father truly knows the Son and only the Son truly knows the Father.
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
If the holy spirit is a separate and distinct being with personality, then Jesus either did not know this or was very inconsistent in giving “Him” proper due.
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true.  If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?
The holy spirit is conspicuously missing from this statement, just as it is missing from in the many visions seen of God and Jesus below:

A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
Even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given

AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit.
STEPHEN’S VISION
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
DANIEL’S VISION
In Daniel chapter 7 Daniel describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a
person in this celestial scene.
JOHN’S VISION
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand.  No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand.  And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne.
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3; 1 Thes 5:19), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).
So not only is the holy spirit not seen in vision with Jesus and Jehovah, represented in human form with a throne, crown, etc, instead, the holy spirit, when it is portrayed, is compared to completely impersonal things.
These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person.  Why is that?  
Along the same line….

THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS NO THRONE
In the same line of thought, many times it is explicitly declared that both the Father and the Son have a throne, and are seated upon that throne.  (Rev 3:21; 22:3, etc)
But where is the throne of the holy spirit?  How bizarre, if the holy spirit is the same as Father and the Son, and is one of the trinity, equal with them in power, substance, and glory! How is it that it has no throne while the others have?

SECONDARY POSITION IN THE SCRIPTURES / GREETINGS…
(This is what this thread is really about.)
How could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given a secondary position in the Scriptures?  Above we saw that it is missing from the visions of Jehovah and his Son in heaven.  But it is somehow neglected to be mentioned in several other places by the divinely inspired Bible writers.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3
Where is the holy spirit in this?  While speaking of the grand life saving importance of taking in knowledge, where is the mention of this supposed third person of the trinity?
The apostle Paul in the opening of his letters often used expressions like this: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) This is Paul’s standard greeting in his letters to the congregations, as well as individuals to whom he wrote.  
In Romans through Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul sends personal greetings from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and unexplainable oversight if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!
1 CORINTHIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
GALATIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
EPHESIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
PHILIPPIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
COLOSSIANS 1:2
“to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.”
1 TIMOTHY 1:2
“to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
2 TIMOTHY 1:2
“May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
TITUS 1:4
“May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
In each of his greetings he never mentions the holy spirit.  Why did he not mention the holy spirit as a person? Because Paul knew nothing of the trinity.
James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in the introduction to their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit.  Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.
James said he was “a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” (James 1:1) John also said: “this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”  (I John 1:3)  Notice Peter’s introduction: “May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,” (2 Pet 1:2)  
But if the Spirit were an individual co-equal with the Father and the Son, this consistent omission is incomprehensible!
In fact, it would have been insubordination by the apostles at the highest level. In modern terms, this would be like recognizing three people who own and run a business, but their employees in the field would only give references to two of them when writing to headquarters. This would he unthinkable.
But if there were only two “presidents” who used a powerful force to accomplish their tasks, then it could be understood why the power itself was not addressed in any salutations from or to their underlings. This is precisely the way it was with the apostles in their letters to the various congregations. The apostles consistently left out the holy spirit in their salutations in their letters to Christians.
If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well?
The only good answer is that there is no such person, for as an inspired writer of Scripture, Paul was on intimate terms with God and his Son, Jesus. If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations?
When Paul does include additional persons in his greetings, salutations and adjurations, he names “the elect angels,” not “the holy spirit” (1 Tim. 5:21; cp. Luke 9:26 and Rev. 3:5).  How interesting.
In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.  Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit. 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Corinthians 8:6).  He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person.

NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE

That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name.
The Bible never speaks of the holy spirit in the same way that it speaks of God or of Jesus. For example, in the Bible, the holy spirit does not have a personal name.
Is that just an insignificant detail? No, names are important in the Bible. God stressed the importance of his own name when he said: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8) The importance of Jesus Christ’s name was emphasized before his birth when an angel told Mary: “You are to call his name Jesus.” (Luke 1:31) If the names of the Father and of the Son are so important, why does the holy spirit not have a personal name? Surely, this detail alone should make a person wonder whether the spirit is really equal to the Father and the Son.

THE HOLY SPIRIT LACKS PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION
Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’
It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.
(Greek has a definite article “the” but no indefinite article “a.”)

“THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Jehovah God, the Creator, the Father, the Most High, the Almighty, has many distinctive titles and designations.  He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”?
If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy?

USED POSSESSIVELY
More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29

LOVE–WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE JEHOVAH AND JESUS.  WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
We are required to love God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ; but no one is ever required to love the holy spirit. No such precept is given, nor is there any reference to it.  Why?

LOVE–BETWEEN FATHER AND SON.  WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father.  (Mat 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18,22, etc.)  Where does Jesus speak of the holy spirit as a person?  Where does he speak of the relationship between himself and the holy spirit?  The holy spirit is absent from Christ’s teachings in general.  Jesus makes many statements about himself and the Father.  He doesn’t make similar statements about himself and the holy spirit.  
While very much is said about how tenderly the Father loves the Son, and how devotedly the Son loves the Father, not one word is said about the Father's loving the holy spirit, nor that the Son loves the holy spirit, nor that the holy spirit loves either the Father or the Son. No such thought is ever expressed. How shall we account for this fact if the Father, Son, and the holy spirit, are three persons alike and equal?
How astonishing, we say, that so much is said about the mutual love between the Father and the Son, and yet, not one word is said about a similar love between the holy sprit and the other two persons! Why is it left out in this manner?
Also, consider Luke 10:22, where it says: “who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son…”  Again, why is the holy spirit left out?

LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON–LOVE MAN.  WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Furthermore, it is never said that the holy spirit ever loves man; yet it is quite frequently declared how greatly both the Father and the Son do love man. But no such thing is ever said of the holy spirit. How shall we account for this?
(While some will quote scriptures such as below, we notice immediately that none of these scriptures speak of the holy spirit personally, as having intimacy between itself and God, Jesus or mankind, DO THEY?
Which of them speaks of the holy spirit loving you?  Which of them speaks of the holy spirit loving God?  Or loving Jesus?)
Rom 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the “love of the Spirit”, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Phil 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I Pet 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

“SOMETHING, NOT SOMEONE”–CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA ADMITS
Even though Catholics view the holy spirit as part of the trinity, New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia must admit: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things.  You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with
water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)

HOLY SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”  (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons?  I guess that’s more personification.)
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.

THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14).  The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.”  It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19)  People can drink of it.  (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13)  The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus.  If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person.  None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY
Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person?  Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?  
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc.  In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we?  Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification.   Personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
There is a host of other scriptures giving “personalities” to hands, ears, trees, hills, mountains, the earth, heaven, and many other inanimate things. (1 Cor 12:15,16; Ps 96,11,12; Is 55:12)
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.   All three are said to BE witnesses.  But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
IN WHAT SENSE DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAK?
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Mark 13:11; Luke 12: 12; Acts 1:16; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Acts 13:2,9,10; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.  It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified.  Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
HEBREWS 3:7
“For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
HEBREWS 10:15-17
“Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.””
PSALM 95:7
“For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasturage and the sheep of his hand. Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
JEREMIAH 31:33-34
““For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””
ACTS 19:2-6
“and he said
to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when YOU became believers?” They said to him: “Why, we have never heard whether there is a holy spirit.” And he said: “In what, then, were YOU baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
ACTS 21:4
“By a search we found the disciples and remained here seven days. But through the spirit they repeatedly told Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem.”
ACTS 28:25
“So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers,”

It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others.  Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)

PERSONIFICATION, AN EXAMPLE
The Bible will HELP us to figure this out.  It will TELL us the truth and GUIDE us to the right conclusion.  The Bible actually INVITES us to learn from it.  And if we do, it will CONVINCE you that you are wrong.  What does it TEACH?  What does it SAY?  What does it REVEAL?  What KNOWLEDGE does it contain about God's holy spirit?  
Instead of just following the traditions of men, we should let the Bible itself EXPLAIN.

So,that's what I believe and what I base my beliefs on. Sorry, back to the post.

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So i guess the only direct answer would be no, i believe it wouldnt be an insult to God.  He is your father, brother, and friend.

Although “Jesus” (the son) is referred to as a brother, God is always referred to in the Father position, and the Father of Jesus as well.

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3. What the Apostles understood is irrelevant to the understanding of Christ. 4. The Apostles were imperfect, i mean they made mistakes after Jesus resurrected, for example like when Paul called out Peter for kindof of ignoring the gentiles.  You know what I mean?

I do know what you mean, but if we discount the Bible, then there is no point having any conversation on here.  Paul repeated that phrase about 10 times, in most of his letters.  James, John, Peter also spoke similarly.  If we are not to believe them, then we really can't discuss anything.

If you only want to believe Jesus words, then start with these: The Father is greater than I am.

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6. What does a greeting prove compared to mandate from  Christ?

If you are referring to Matthew 28:19, it doesn't speak of a trinity.  It mentions 3.  As I have pointed out, there are more often when the Father, Son and Angels are mentioned.  What proof is this?  Nothing.  So what proof is that?  Nothing.  I am using scripture to explain scripture.  Is that wrong?  I think it's better than using our own opinions.

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QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?) I kind of don’t understand this question.  But what I think your saying is why didn’t Paul send a greeting that mentions or relates to the Holy Spirit along side the Father and the Son being mentioned.

No, it says the greeting is “from” God and the Lord Jesus.  

So my question again, is, does the holy spirit not care to greet us?
LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON LOVE MAN.  WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
It is never said that the holy spirit ever loves man; yet it is quite frequently declared how greatly both the Father and the Son do love man. But no such thing is ever said of the holy spirit. How shall we account for this?

Apparently, he doesn't love us, and “he” doesn't send us a greeting.  It's almost like he's not a person, but more of “God's finger” as one Bible writer describes “it.”

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I think Paul was very aware about the Holy Spirit and the purpose of the Holy Spirit that not mentioning him just shows that its in us. For example, its like calling my Cousin in Honduras and telling him that his mom who lives with him, says hi.  ?Odd?

I guess that is sort of logical.  But I would still think the mom would want to say “hi.”

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So I mean if Lucas mentioned the Holy Spirit, but not the Father and not Jesus, doesn’t that tell us something.  That Lucas the investigator who wanted to know, must have asked Paul, and Paul told him the Holy Spirit.  We could argue that Paul was called by Jesus in the way to Damascus.  Welll… true but it goes back to the question… why wasn’t the father mentioned?  Jesus said why do you persecute ME?  Not the father… wouldn’t it also be a tragedy, or a sin for Jesus not to mention the Father as he was talking to Saul of Tarsus.   So Paul did not ignore the existence of the Holy Spirit or its authority.

I think this actually proves my point.  The fact that once, the holy spirit was added to God and his Son, who are frequently mentioned together doesn't prove any more than when God, his Son and the angels are mentioned together with more frequency.

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I think that goes back to the same point I make in question 2, 3,4,5…   I mean… If the Pastor say Gods love you, should he be afraid not to mention every single name of the Lord thy God?

I'm a math guy.  So, if I see that “Jehovah” is specifically and unquestionably called “God” 1000 times and another 6000 times not by name, and that the holy spirit is never called “God” specifically, to me that means something.
Similarly, if I see repeatedly the
Father and Son being mentioned together, and once or twice, the holy spirit being added on, at the very least, I would not take that addition as proof of anything.

Remember, this post is based on what countless (including WJ) have said:
“. . . Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.”–WJ

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I think im misundertanding the questions your not arguing the verse but the statement that the guy mj said right?  (online bible time!)  ok I get it now. Than I agree.

Maybe I should have read the whole post before responding.

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But going back to my point, that even though the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, doesn’t mean that the Apostles don’t believe in it either.

Of course I believe they believe in “it.”  But I don't believe “it” is God, but rather, “it” is God's finger.
In one Bible account, it is called God's spirit, and in a parallel account, it is called God's finger.
I think we understand that a finger is used to accomplish a purpose.  It is also called his arm.  It is what he possesses, and he uses it to carry out his will.

david.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,10:37)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 11 2010,17:35) So I mean if Lucas mentioned the Holy Spirit, but not the Father and not Jesus, doesn’t that tell us something.  That Lucas the investigator who wanted to know, must have asked Paul, and Paul told him the Holy Spirit.  We could argue that Paul was called by Jesus in the way to Damascus.  Welll… true but it goes back to the question… why wasn’t the father mentioned?  Jesus said why do you persecute ME?  Not the father… wouldn’t it also be a tragedy, or a sin for Jesus not to mention the Father as he was talking to Saul of Tarsus.   So Paul did not ignore the existence of the Holy Spirit or its authority. Hi SimplyForgiven Welcome. I have been working on a post to David and you have taken some of the words out of my mouth. I tend to get wordy and sometimes it takes me awhile. Anyway the post was directed at me but thanks for your input, you have made some valid points. Blessings Keith

I would like to again point out that all I'm saying, is that the simple fact that 3 are listed, does not a trinity make.

If 3 being listed once proves something, then the 2 being repeatedly listed (without God's holy spirit) must prove something also.

[david]

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Idk For God to only be Jesus is a limitation, to only being savoir, For God only being Father is a limiation of being only a creator and not being able to be part of us, and for God to only be the Holy spirit is a limitation to being will only our guide.

–Dennison

So, what if someone claims that our “Savior” and our “Creator” and our “Guide” are all said to be the same one, a trinity, and all equal. I know that if I were equal partners with 2 other people, I would not feel so equal if I was never really mentioned and the other two were always mentioned together.

I am not really trying to argue that all these scriptures that show the 2 together “prove” that the holy spirit is not part of a trinity. I'm arguing that it is silly to say that the fact that 3 are mentioned together at Mat 28:19, proves anything. (Look at the rest of the Bible.) If they were mentioned together all the time, then this may be proof. The fact that they are not, well, I'd almost be embarressed to try to present Matthew 28:19 as some sort of proof of something given the rest of the Bible.

[david]

Basically, what I'm saying is, does it “prove” anything when we see three things or persons lumped together?

1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, THE SPIRIT and THE WATER and THE BLOOD, and the three are in agreement.”

This sentence feels more like a trinity than the one in Matthew 28:19.

[JustAskin]

David,
Thank you for your honest response. I accept your apology.
God Bless.

Your response post above is well researched and contains much truth that others should consider and contemplate.

It must have taken some time to compile. Well done for taking the time.

However, it does contain some minor errors which I won't expose now, but you may want to reread all that you posted and, kinda, draw a physical or mental picture of relationships in each passage. You will then see where some of those errors creep in.

In all, if the sole purpose of your post is to disprove a Trinity by the mention of three, and/or that the Holy Spirit is not a person, then I give you 10 out of 10.

Advice: Further research and harder connection between relationships of ideas and possible reality.

If you want to know where the errors are then pm me and I will respond, else feel satisified that you have done well, but seek for refinement.

(much like I just reread this post and noticed some minor errors and corrected what I saw but it may take someone else to point out ones I have not seen because of my own closeup view point or lacking in grammar. Hey, David, You know how much a single dot in the wrong place, or missing can invalidate a formulae…)

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2010,20:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,07:29) Mike How about you answering a few questions instead of making false claims. Here is a few you have not answered… Keith verses Mike WJ Really WJ? We've been locked off HN for 3 or 4 days, you just post something today that I haven't even read yet, and you link that as a slam to me about not answering it?  Wow!  I don't get home from work until 5 or 6 Arizona time.  Give me a chance. peace and love, mike

Mike

My response is in reponse to you making claims about me avoiding questions and not answering.

I don't care how long it takes, but like your buddy you guys should stop all of the Ad hominems.

WJ

[RokkaMan]

David, good post

I'd like to respond.

God created Men and Women equal. Yet our society does not believe men and women are equal (for the most part). They rarely have for thousands of years, but it's now changing.

You may look at God's personality in that way.

Men and Women are equal, but God gave men authority.

He gave women influence.

They are equal in beings, but one has the power of authority the other has the power of influence.

I like to understand The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in the same light.

The issue isn't God and his being,
The issue is your understanding of “equal”

The Father has all authority even above Jesus.
but Jesus has the power to forgive all sins.
The Holy Spirit is a ministering spirit that guides us.

They are all God and all equal, yet each with it's own distinctive relationship with creation.

Who cares if the Holy Spirit doesn't know everything The Father knows… see again, it's not God's being, being flawed…it's our understanding.

Whoever said that not being able to do everything someone else can, makes you unequal?

I'd like to think I am equal than you yet we are two completely different people.

Same light, My dear friend Dennison once asked me…can you make yourself forget?

I told him no,  he replied “God is so powerful, he can make himself forget.”

In understanding God, he is so powerful, that he can create a being equal to himself, and just as much God as he is…but as long as he has ALL the authority…none will be greater than him The Father.

Yet that logic does not take away that Jesus and The Holy Spirit are equal to him. It's paradoxical, yet true.

Don't limit God.

Jesus Christ was Fully Man, yet Fully God. Amen.

[JustAskin]

Keith,

Perhaps you are right.

Tell you what, you stop posting inconsistent and erronous arguments and we will stop the 'ad hominems'.

If you believe in the Trinity doctrine, then post with that as your base.
If some question arises that successfully disputes your claim, then acknowledge it. Don't make up silly pointless distractions nor change the context, to get out of the corner. You don't fool JA in that way…and you know that that is what you have done in the past.

So, Agreed?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 12 2010,03:20)

Basically, what I'm saying is, does it “prove” anything when we see three things or persons lumped together? 1 JOHN 5:6-8 “This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, THE SPIRIT and THE WATER and THE BLOOD, and the three are in agreement.” This sentence feels more like a trinity than the one in Matthew 28:19.

David

A quick response.

So you are saying that Jesus “own words” prove nothing?

This is a mandate to the church from the Lord himself!

One name given for three “distinct identities” all spoken of with the definite article which implies persons.

Why don't you address this point instead of creating all these diversions and smoke screens?

You can try all you want to minimize the truth and make Jesus words of none effect, but your disdain for Jesus own words are obvious.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi David

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

“. . . Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.”–WJ The fact that 3 were mentioned in no way proves anything other than the fact that some can count to 3!

I am sure our Lord Jesus would have plenty to say about your claim that his words “prove nothing” but only that some can count to three. This is the typical response of the JWs who do not respect Jesus own words but in fact love to make his words of none effect.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 1:If these three are a trinity, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2?

The definition of a Trinity is what Jesus speaks of in the fullest since of the word, since he speaks of three separate identities with the definite article and a singular name or authority that the Apostles were to baptize into. There is nothing in the verse that implies inequality with the three. Also it must have been total “disrespect of immense magnitude” for Jesus to speak of the three knowing that he would inspire the Apostles to often speak of the 2 yet sometimes of the three. Not to mention the disrespect of our Lord to the Father for mentioning a mere force or power with equal terms in the mandate, namely a singular name!

This is a ridiculous question, seeing that the Holy Spirit is often spoken of without the mention of the Father or Jesus which we will get into later.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 2:  If 3 being mentioned together once proves something, what does 2 being mentioned together numerous times prove?  (Think about the reason that either proves anything)

It sure doesn’t prove there isn't three (or a Trinity) does it David? Again, you are accusing the Lord of not proving anything by his words!

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

A few examples: 1 CORINTHIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 CORINTHIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” GALATIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” EPHESIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” PHILIPPIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” COLOSSIANS 1:2 “to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co•lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.” 1 TIMOTHY 1:2 “to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” 2 TIMOTHY 1:2 “May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” TITUS 1:4 “May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!

So according to your logic it was an “unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT ” of our Lord to mention the Holy Spirit in a divine mandate to the Church in the same sentence with the Father and the Son, and then ascribing “a singular  Name” or authority to the three knowing that Paul would  sometimes speak of two, right David? When will you stop accusing the Lord of ignorance! Did he make a mistake in his words?

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?)

What are you saying David, that the Holy Spirit is not one with the Father and Jesus?

Of course he is conscience of us. He is the “Counselor”, or Greek (paraklētos) which means;

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor

Here are a few examples of how the Holy Spirit is conscience of us and cares for us…

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom “the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”.   John 14:16, 17

Notice David, the world does not “know him” but we “know him”, how about you? He abides with us forever! Will you make Jesus words of none effect again?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. John 14:26

Here we see the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance that Jesus has spoken. So he is our teacher as well.

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55

Here we see the three again David, and notice it is the Holy Spirit that is filling Stephen and showing him the Lord Jesus at the Fathers right hand. This truly reveals the Holy Spirit carrying out his role, which is to empower the believer and reveal the Father and Jesus to them, and not speak of himself. (John 16:13)

Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the “comfort (Greek paraklēsis) of the Holy Ghost”, were multiplied. Acts 9:31

Here we see the Holy Spirit is strengthening and encouraging the Church. The Greek paraklēsis means;

1) a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2) importation, supplication, entreaty
3) exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4) consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment

An amorphous force or power doesn’t do those things David.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 4:  If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations? (What does it mean that Paul was unaware of the holy spirit being part of a triune God?)

I thought you just asked this. It is Jesus that speaks of the third person in Matthew 28:19 unless you want to say that the Father and Jesus are not persons. Jesus gives us no indication the Holy Spirit is not equally a person. How does Paul’s greetings invalidate Jesus own words?

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 5:  If Paul actually believed the holy spirit was part of a triune God, would it not have been insubordination of the highest level to continually ignore “him?”

Who says Paul ignores him?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
He did not speak of a trinity and neither can you find supporting scriptures.
Just lots of woolly headed words.
Useless theology.

[SimplyForgiven]

Hi David,
I think im going to have answer your response in two fashions because your right we did go off in two different tangents.
1. The Priority is to prove if that one scripture proves if The early Apostles and church Fathers believed in the Trinity
2. If the Holy Spirit really is part of an co-equal entity, a Trinity.

Im going to focus first on the purpose of the thread and than respond later tonight the long arguement you made about the Holy Spirit involvement, purpose, and existance in relationship to God and to us as believers.

Quote

Quote So i guess the only direct answer would be no, i believe it wouldnt be an insult to God.  He is your father, brother, and friend. Although “Jesus” (the son) is referred to as a brother, God is always referred to in the Father position, and the Father of Jesus as well. Quote 3. What the Apostles understood is irrelevant to the understanding of Christ. 4. The Apostles were imperfect, i mean they made mistakes after Jesus resurrected, for example like when Paul called out Peter for kindof of ignoring the gentiles.  You know what I mean? I do know what you mean, but if we discount the Bible, then there is no point having any conversation on here.  Paul repeated that phrase about 10 times, in most of his letters.  James, John, Peter also spoke similarly.  If we are not to believe them, then we really can't discuss anything. If you only want to believe Jesus words, then start with these: The Father is greater than I am.

Its not dicounting the bible, but its about making doctrine on only part of it, If Jesus is who he says he is, than our focus should be in Jesus.  It is a Theological error to only believe in one scripture but its all interconnected.  For example abuot half of acts its about Peter preaching to Jews, but what he doesnt realize most of the time is that Gentiles also can be saved… So if were to only take that portion of the Bible than there might be some who argue that Salvation is only for the Jews, but of course we can keep on reading and understand hey, Gentiles can be saved as well, and Peter learned that through a vision whom, the Holy Spirit lead him into and gave him commands.  How can the Holy Spirit give orders if its an impersonal things,  its like a glass of water trying me to drink it.  If something speaks under its own authoritys it because it exists as a personal being, with a personality. Use Psycho analysis to study the Holy Spirit and you can see all the charateristics and attributes match those of Jesus and of the Father.

And your last arguement, read the context. Jesus says before that
John 10:30- I and my Father are one.
What he meant is at that current state, he could not be greater, but or equal, but he is still one of the same, becuase he needed to still die and ressurect and etc.  He hasnt been glorifed yet.  Who is he Glorfied by? the Father.

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Quote 6. What does a greeting prove compared to mandate from  Christ? If you are referring to Matthew 28:19, it doesn't speak of a trinity.  It mentions 3.  As I have pointed out, there are more often when the Father, Son and Angels are mentioned.  What proof is this?  Nothing.  So what proof is that?  Nothing.  I am using scripture to explain scripture.  Is that wrong?  I think it's better than using our own opinions.

Thats where you are wrong.  you lost the point of the thread in this statement.  We are argueing WJ's response if the Early Apostles and church fathers believed this.  I would agree that wouldnt prove that they believed it, but the Scripture does speak of Three in one.  
2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”  Seems like paul does give the Holy Spirit his due.
And yes you can use scripture and more scripture, but we cant ignore scripture.  If your arguement is if the Apostles believed in this? your right it doesnt prove that they did.  But if your saying that the mandate of Jesus Christ doesnt prove anything,…. well i think we need to double check that one.  I think the fact that Jesus who said something, which are highlighted in red letters… should be something to really take to heart.  

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Quote QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?) I kind of don’t understand this question.  But what I think your saying is why didn’t Paul send a greeting that mentions or relates to the Holy Spirit along side the Father and the Son being mentioned. No, it says the greeting is “from” God and the Lord Jesus.

Its says peace and kindness.. if you study enough about the Holy Spirit you will see that they interconnect with the Holy Spirit.  Holy Ghost is said to be sent from God, Descended from Heaven and etc.  So all three are mentioned, just not in our own understanding.  Jesus spoke always in parables and never really spoke plainly, and in John it shows how the people really wanted him to speak plainly, and Jesus was like why… cant you understand what im saying!
and its not Gods finger, He is there for us always.. its like God always there for us in every moment, in every thought, and choice.   If anything the Holy Spirit is a gentleman, who seeks to establish is love in you, but we have the ability to reject him.  

Quote

Quote So I mean if Lucas mentioned the Holy Spirit, but not the Father and not Jesus, doesn’t that tell us something.  That Lucas the investigator who wanted to know, must have asked Paul, and Paul told him the Holy Spirit.  We could argue that Paul was called by Jesus in the way to Damascus.  Welll… true but it goes back to the question… why wasn’t the father mentioned?  Jesus said why do you persecute ME?  Not the father… wouldn’t it also be a tragedy, or a sin for Jesus not to mention the Father as he was talking to Saul of Tarsus.   So Paul did not ignore the existence of the Holy Spirit or its authority. I think this actually proves my point.  The fact that once, the holy spirit was added to God and his Son, who are frequently mentioned together doesn't prove any more than when God, his Son and the angels are mentioned together with more frequency.

IT does prove something because of who mentioned it.  Mathew must have agreed with Lucas to write such a thing, because its in the beginning of Acts that Lucas starts off where Matthew left off.   So there is an agreement of veiws there.  Frequency is not revelant, because God works in patterns of action.  Read hebrews and you can understand that God worked in the patterns of action.  

No where does it say that God loves you.  find a verse that says God loves you.  in first person.  As in God: “I love you”  

you willl not find that.  how do we know he loves us, by his action and works.   John 3:16. for example.  

a great arguement for a person who doesnt believe is show me in the bible where it says plainly
that God loves me.  It doesnt brother but you know what it does SHOW that he loves us because he sent his only begotten son to die for us and to ressurect so taht we may have a new life in Christ Jesus.

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Quote I think that goes back to the same point I make in question 2, 3,4,5…   I mean… If the Pastor say Gods love you, should he be afraid not to mention every single name of the Lord thy God? I'm a math guy.  So, if I see that “Jehovah” is specifically and unquestionably called “God” 1000 times and another 6000 times not by name, and that the holy spirit is never called “God” specifically, to me that means something. Similarly, if I see repeatedly the Father and Son being mentioned together, and once or twice, the holy spirit being added on, at the very least, I would not take that addition as proof of anything.

If you are  a Math guy than your trying to limit God to an understanding.  you cant do that.  God is like the expression pie.  Solve Pie pls?  its infinite.  so its like saying that my name Dennison, which can be googled so easily, and you can find me so easily, because im probably the only one in the world.  so just because there are frequent searches that are pertaining to one individual, doenst mean that there arnt people related to me, or others with names as Dennison.

so Frequency doesnt solve anything either.

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Quote But going back to my point, that even though the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, doesn’t mean that the Apostles don’t believe in it either.   Of course I believe they believe in “it.”  But I don't believe “it” is God, but rather, “it” is God's finger. In one Bible account, it is called God's spirit, and in a parallel account, it is called God's finger. I think we understand that a finger is used to accomplish a purpose.  It is also called his arm.  It is what he possesses, and he uses it to carry out his will. david.

Again, going back to the arguemnt. I agree that the statment that WJ made about ONE scripture would be impossible to tell if the Apostle believed in that or not.  but if we look at others of course we can see the Apostles did in fact.  Just by the fact that Lucas started where Mathew ended showed a continuation of ideas between many years.  Lucas wrote acts a number of years later after mathew.  so they must have agreed in some degree concerning The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  To say that its only Gods finger… i mean a finger limits God.  a Head limits God.  anything such thing limits God.  Thats why when Jesus who is God, was man, He himself understood he was limited.  Get what im saying?  God doenst even need a finger, or anything such sort.  but we can argue that the scripture speaks of that, and how you mentioned before that the Holy Spirit is a insturment, a thing if anything.  Its called the Holy Ghost for a reason, one because its Holy its enough to carrry all of Gods principles, and two its a spirit/Ghost, the unseen personailty of God.  

Can i see your soul please, send me picture of it.  while your add it take a picture of your personailty.  I cannot see those thigns, but when i looks at yoru life and the people you affect, I can see you, in them.  because we all affect eachtoher.  the more time we spend with a person, the more we act like them.  If the holy Spirit which precides IN us, can change our lifes. for example Paul speaks of the holy Ghost in
Acts 19:1-
And when it speaks of gifts, its Gifts of the Holy Ghost.  as in there are two catergory of Gifts. one the fact that we can receive the Holy Ghost bc before they couldnt, and second the gifts of the Holy Ghost itself.  

anyways i have to go to work, i wanted to extend may arguement. but tonight ill focus on the Holy Spirit more than the dicussion because my conclusion is.

That your Right: That one verse does not prove that the early Apostles believed in the Trinity.

And it is also an error to say that Jesus's mandate doesnt prove anything about the Trinity.  Its not a suggestion, its an order.  Lets go further, why in Acts do they only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

Suggestion: Lets take Psychological approaches, to understand this.

Hey thx for taking the time for your response,
I wanted to let you know bro that i love you very much,
you have really helped me study more and increase in knowledge with God.
Thank you for your input becuase it has lead to me really praying and meditiating in Gods word and presence and it has helped me alot.  
even though it may seem as an arguement.. the truth is i love to discuss and think and understand you.  

When i read your points, i honestly considered every one of them, even though in the end i disagreed, i just wanted to let you know that you are ver studious, and your studying is make me study more.  so thank you!

With much love brother,  I hope God increases your Knowledge  and that the Spirit of Truth guide you in all things.

[NickHassan]

Hi SF,
Jesus the man was not the God of the Jews.
God was in him reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5]
He told the jews the Father was the One they called GOD[Jn8.54]

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!

David

BTW, have you ever questioned why the Apostles didn't baptize in the name of Jehovah?

I wonder why Paul never used the name “Jehovah” in his greetings?

Just something to think about, huh?

WJ

[david]

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The issue isn't God and his being, The issue is your understanding of “equal” The Father has all authority even above Jesus. but Jesus has the power to forgive all sins. The Holy Spirit is a ministering spirit that guides us. They are all God and all equal

Rokkaman, my problem is the Bible and what it says. If not for that pesky Bible, the trinity would be so much easier to believe
The Bible does not say that the holy spirit is “equal” to God, or to Jesus.
The Bible does not say we are to worship the holy spirit, as it does of God.
The Bible does not say the holy spirit loves us, as it does of God.
The Bible does not say we are to love the holy spirit, as it does of God.
The Bible does not say that the holy spirit loves the Father, or vice/versa, as it does of Jesus.
The Bible does not say thatthe holy spirit ever sends us “his” greeting, as it repeatedly does of the other two.
Etc, etc, etc.

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Yet that logic does not take away that Jesus and The Holy Spirit are equal to him. It's paradoxical, yet true. Don't limit God.

Whenever I hear words like “paradoxical” or “divine mystery” I have to think that this is a fancy way of saying it doesn't make logical sense, but we have to believe it, even if the Bible doesn't indicate so.

I am not limiting God. I am concerned with what the Bible says and what it doesn't say.

The argument has been made that Matthew 28:19 is proof of something. I feel it embarresing and not proof at all. I feel that it only points out the countless other times the 3 are not listed together and the many times that Jesus and his Father are.

Again, if 3 being listed together once is proof, what of 2 being listed over and over and over and over again? Is that not stronger proof? How do we judge proof?

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In understanding God, he is so powerful, that he can create a being equal to himself, and just as much God as he is…but as long as he has ALL the authority…none will be greater than him The Father.

Are you saying the trinity wasn't always a trinity?

[david]

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Your response post above is well researched and contains much truth that others should consider and contemplate. It must have taken some time to compile.

A couple weeks and then on and off, adding scriptures as I found them.

[david]

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However, it does contain some minor errors which I won't expose now, but you may want to reread all that you posted and, kinda, draw a physical or mental picture of relationships in each passage. You will then see where some of those errors creep in. In all, if the sole purpose of your post is to disprove a Trinity by the mention of three, and/or that the Holy Spirit is not a person, then I give you 10 out of 10.

Hi JA.
Actually, I have read it. Probably a hundred times. I put it together. So, I don't think I'll read it again, looking for errors. I do want you to tell me where you think I went wrong, but if you could perhaps do it in a “holy spirit” thread. Or this thread works too, which is sort of breaking down. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Do you think the holy spirit is a “him” but not part of the trinity, a person? I believe you also called it an “it” in your post. What do you disagree with?

[david]

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David A quick response. So you are saying that Jesus “own words” prove nothing?

WJ, it is this kind of false reasoning and pointless attacks that make me question your credibility.

Obviously, I did not say that “Jesus 'own words' prove nothing' as if to make my fight against Jesus words.
What I did in fact say is that the fact that 3 are mentioned does not prove a trinity. It is proof of nothing, and yet you seem to think it is some great proof.

WJ, (a question you will ignore)

What does it prove when “God” and “Jesus” and “the angels” are mentioned together?

Does it prove anything? Why not? Where is the difference?

If that mention in Matthew 28:19 was some sort of explanation on the nature of God, then you may have something. But as it is, you have one scripture that happens to have 3 in it. Just as the holy spirit, blood and water are mentioned as being 3 witnesses, (which does not a trinity make) here we have God, Jesus and the holy spirit mentioned together. Again, I ask,
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

Add to this the fact that God and his Son are repeatedly mentioned together (as in, in the greetings) without any mention of a 3d, and we are starting to have strong evidence against your case.

[Author]

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