Matthew 28:19–what does it prove?

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  • #192592
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi SF,
    God is not His Son.
    Trinity is of man, not the revelation of God.

    Jesus refused to put God to the test, he was not that God.

    #192616

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:39)
    He knows that Satan is a true god.  And he wasn't implying that he is not real.  He is the second mightiest being in existance, so he qualifies as a real god.


    Hi all

    Now Mike says that satan is not just the god of this world but he is also a “true god” and “a mighty god”! I thought “Mighty God” was a title given to Jesus?

    But pay close attention to Mike’s words for it gets even worse; Mike says above that satan is….

    THE SECOND MIGHTIEST BEING IN EXISTANCE, SO HE QUALIFIES AS A REAL GOD.

    *THIS IS ANATHEMA!!!*

    HMMM! I wonder if mike really thinks that satan is sitting at the Fathers right hand instead of Jesus!

    And what about the Arch-Angels of God like Michael and Gabriel, according to Mike satan is greater than they!

    This is one reason why I think Jack wanted to puke over what Mike believes!

    WJ

    #192617

    Hi All

    Mike says….

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:39)
    He said the Father is the only true God.


    But then he says…

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:39)
    He wasn't implying that Satan wasn't real.  He knows that Satan is a true god.


    Is anyone confused yet? Is this pure double talk? Yep.

    Am I missing something or does the word “Only” mean anything to Mike?

    But now the worst part is he is calling satan a “true god” but then again says…

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:39)
    But the Father is the only true God.  Not Jesus.


    So let me see if I understand, satan is a “true god” but not Jesus!  

    But Mike will say Jesus is “a true god” but he is not his true god!  

    WJ

    #192619
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2010,02:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:39)
    He knows that Satan is a true god.  And he wasn't implying that he is not real.  He is the second mightiest being in existance, so he qualifies as a real god.


    Hi all

    Now Mike says that satan is not just the god of this world but he is also a “true god” and “a mighty god”! I thought “Mighty God” was a title given to Jesus?

    But pay close attention to Mike’s words for it gets even worse; Mike says above that satan is….

    THE SECOND MIGHTIEST BEING IN EXISTANCE, SO HE QUALIFIES AS A REAL GOD.

    *THIS IS ANATHEMA!!!*

    HMMM! I wonder if mike really thinks that satan is sitting at the Fathers right hand instead of Jesus!

    And what about the Arch-Angels of God like Michael and Gabriel, according to Mike satan is greater than they!

    This is one reason why I think Jack wanted to puke over what Mike believes!

    WJ


    WJ,

    I do believe that even the JW leadership would take Mike out to the woodshed now.

    I commend you for your strong arguments. You have pushed Mike into making so many anathema statements that no reasonable person can deny that your arguments have prevailed.

    I do obeisance to you brother. I better not say I worship you. Mike might get on me for making you equal with satan.

    Jack

    #192620
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Mike said to WJ:

    Quote
    But the Father is the only true God.  Not Jesus

    .
    WJ replied:

    Quote
    So let me see if I understand, satan is a “true god” but not Jesus!


    Wow! It's no wonder David hasn't shown his face around here for a couple of days. David wants to keep his distance from Mike and understandably so.  

    The truth has prevailed brother!

    Jack

    #192621
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Gene,

    I'm beginning to think that you are right.

    Let me try again:

    KJ, in another post you accused me of ignoring some baseless qestion you asked that I had answered many times.
    Well, I answered as per your request – not to 'cover myself' but becasue perhaps I didn't see the question.
    Well, again, then can you, in like manner, respond to my question(s) a couple of posts back, Thank you.

    And WJ, likewise. The answers are not hard – there is no thinking required … oh and both of you (or maybe it won't apply to KJ) but can you just be HONEST – OR DONT RESPOND AT ALL…EVERYONE WILL SEE that you are HONEST in not answering because you know that to do so would perjure yourself (Plead the 5th for me!)

    #192622
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ May 29 2010,04:35)
    Gene,

    I'm beginning to think that you are right.

    Let me try again:

    KJ, in another post you accused me of ignoring some baseless qestion you asked that I had answered many times.
    Well, I answered as per your request – not to 'cover myself' but becasue perhaps I didn't see the question.
    Well, again, then can you, in like manner, respond to my question(s) a couple of posts back, Thank you.

    And WJ, likewise. The answers are not hard – there is no thinking required … oh and both of you (or maybe it won't apply to KJ) but can you just be HONEST – OR DONT RESPOND AT ALL…EVERYONE WILL SEE that you are HONEST in not answering because you know that to do so would perjure yourself (Plead the 5th for me!)


    #192630
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KJ and WJ,
    When will you come out of the shadows and illusions of philosophy and theology and admit you stick to theory because you do not know God or his son?

    #192636

    Quote (JustAskin @ May 28 2010,12:35)
    Gene,

    I'm beginning to think that you are right.

    Let me try again:

    KJ, in another post you accused me of ignoring some baseless qestion you asked that I had answered many times.
    Well, I answered as per your request – not to 'cover myself' but becasue perhaps I didn't see the question.
    Well, again, then can you, in like manner, respond to my question(s) a couple of posts back, Thank you.

    And WJ, likewise. The answers are not hard – there is no thinking required … oh and both of you (or maybe it won't apply to KJ) but can you just be HONEST – OR DONT RESPOND AT ALL…EVERYONE WILL SEE that you are HONEST in not answering because you know that to do so would perjure yourself (Plead the 5th for me!)


    What post have you made to me that you are talking about that I have not answered?

    WJ

    #192637

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,13:40)
    Hi KJ and WJ,
    When will you come out of the shadows and illusions of philosophy and theology and admit you stick to theory because you do not know God or his son?


    NH

    You boast as a moderator of truth here. But you came after Jack and myself and do not even respond to Mike claiming satan is a “true mighty god”.

    Your bias is obvious and it appears that you are not interested in pointing out error but just making “ad hominems”!

    WJ

    #192640
    JustAskin
    Participant

    WJ,

    Page 27.

    To which you refer later on page 29.

    #192641

    Quote (JustAskin @ May 28 2010,14:17)
    WJ,

    Page 27.

    To which you refer later on page 29.


    JA

    My response to you was about the debates thread which is what I thought you were referiing to.

    Which post on page 27?

    WJ

    #192643
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    WJ said to Nick:

    Quote
    But you came after Jack and myself and do not even respond to Mike claiming satan is a “true mighty god”.


    Yeah Nick? What about this? It bothers you that we call Jesus God but Mike gets a pass for calling satan a “true god”?

    You should resign as moderator Nick.

    Jack

    #192645

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,13:40)
    Hi KJ and WJ,
    When will you come out of the shadows and illusions of philosophy and theology and admit you stick to theory because you do not know God or his son?


    NH

    How did you overlook mike saying satan is….

    THE SECOND MIGHTIEST BEING IN EXISTANCE, SO HE QUALIFIES AS A REAL GOD.

    ???

    WJ

    #192647
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2010,07:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,13:40)
    Hi KJ and WJ,
    When will you come out of the shadows and illusions of philosophy and theology and admit you stick to theory because you do not know God or his son?


    NH

    How did you overlook mike saying satan is….

    THE SECOND MIGHTIEST BEING IN EXISTANCE, SO HE QUALIFIES AS A REAL GOD.

    ???

    WJ


    Keith,

    Mike's statement makes me quiver man!

    Jack

    #192651
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KJ,
    Why do the theories of men make you quiver?
    Truth is written and God and His son can be known and do not need to be theorised about.

    #192654
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2010,08:13)
    Hi KJ,
    Why do the theories of men make you quiver?
    Truth is written and God and His son can be known and do not need to be theorised about.


    Huh?

    roo

    #192655

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:05)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2010,05:42)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 27 2010,12:18)
    WorshippingJesus said to Mike:

    Quote
    You have to believe in Polytheism to hold on to your pagan belief that the Apostles taught there were other gods so that you can put Jesus in the same class.


    Since the apostles served Jesus then they served a god which is in the same class as satan. The commandement prohibited the people to serve other gods.

    Mike has really dug a hole for himself. He won't be able to count on me to throw him a rope.

    roo


    Jack

    Since they basically believe that anything that is “Mighty” is a god then I suppoose it won't be long before they acknowledge the President of the USA or Osama Bin Laden or even Hitler are gods, heck before long they may be calling each other gods since that is what they believe!

    Their writings to each other may start something like this “to my friend and my god (theos) _, ….”

    Of course I am kidding but it just shows how they say one thing but in practice do another. Jesus is “a god” but he is not “my god”! :)

    The thing is they do not have any scripture where any servant of YHWH or Jesus ever called any being their God other than YHWH and Jesus in all 66 books. Which means that they are false gods, for the servants of the “One True God” serve him only!

    WJ


    Hi WJ,

    My God is the one Paul talked about.  Our only God, the Father.

    Is the Father your only God?  Or do you have others?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike

    Is he? Is he the “only true god” you serve Mike?

    The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is my “Only True God”, for they are “One”, “One Spirit” Three persons, One God!

    WJ

    #192656
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2010,14:52)
    So you will ignore the fact that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”,


    You take this to mean “first created” as it's consistent with you Arian theological presupposition. Examine the usage of the word in the (whole) Bible and you'll find that it refers to preeminence. If Paul wanted to convey that Jesus was “first-created” he could have done so by using the word prōtoktistos meaning “first-created” (2 Cor 5:18).

    Quote
    the “beginning of the creation of God”


    Arche = The beginner or origin….

    Quote
    the “only begotten Son” and other scriptures?


    Monogenes = unique, one of a kind.

    Quote
    Forget the scriptures just for a second.  Use common sense.  When in the history of the world has a son been the same exact being as his father?


    Both are human beings are they not?

    Quote
    How much clearer could the Bible have said it?  There is a Father.  There is His Son.


    Yes there is…Umm Mike you appear to be making an anti-modalistic argument here. I am not a modalist. I affirm the Father and Son are different persons.

    Quote
    The Son was begotten by the Father.  For me to be able to dispute all these clear signs and the many, many others, I would need a scripture that point blank said, “Jesus is God the Son, co-equal with God the Father.” Why the mystery?  


    It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. (Prov 25:2)

    Before you get too excited let me be clear, I'm not implying that this was necessarily “hidden” by God. I quoted it to show you that not all doctrines are explicit in scripture by design. Most are formed by us using deductive reasoning. It is the Glory of God to do this and our glory to figure stuff out. I'm sure many you hold are inferential, in fact I know they are.

    Quote
    Did God intend for us to not clearly understand how and who to worship?  No.  This division comes from that other mighty god, Satan.  The one who is the god of this world.


    There is one true God, YHWH. All other “gods” are therefore false ones. See…..deductive reasoning in action!

    Quote
    ps, I never implied Jesus and Satan were equivalent beings.  Jesus has the distinction of being the only being directly caused to exist by God.


    This is not scriptural. There's no evidence – explicit or implicit – to support this. Stop making stuff up.

    Quote
    Satan is one of the “everything else” that was created by God through Jesus.


    “everything else”? Be more accurate Mike – Satan is part of the ALL things mentioned in John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16. If Yeshua is involved in the creation of ALL THINGS He Himself cannot logically be a “thing”. The ontological divide between Yeshua and Satan is as wide as the divide between Creator and creation. More deductive reasoning. Are you catching on?

    Quote
    What I implied – nea, what I clearly said was that both Jesus and Satan are gods, but not the Almighty God.  If Roo wants to cry, let him.  I spoke scripturally correctly.


    YHWH is the true God. Satan is a False god.

    Question: is Yeshua a true God or a false one?

    #192657

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,23:17)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:18)
    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2010,23:47)
    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,09:48)
    Jack

    Exactly! Jesus nor the Apostles spoke the name of the Father either!

    You were there, WJ?  There is proof that YHWH was in early LXX MSS.  How do you know for sure they didn't actually say “Yahweh” and it was later sustituted with “Lord” or “God”?

    peace and love,
    mike

    Mike

    What difference does it make now?


    :D  :laugh:  :D

    What difference does it make now? :D

    Do you know without a doubt that when reading the LXX in the synagogue Jesus didn't say “Yahweh” when reading the tetragammaton?  Do you know that YHWH wasn't in the original salutations?

    I know, I know.  What difference does it make now? :laugh:

    peace and love,
    mike


    Yea Mike what difference does it make? Since you are trying to build a case on a negative, what is not written?

    WJ

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