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t8 said:
Quote We are the same kind as him. He calls us 'brother'. So if he is God, then are we? Rather, he is the son of God and we are the sons of God. We are in the same family as him, he is our brother.
This understanding needs to be espoused when you venture into 'ontology'.Christ is our brother by adoption. He was not adopted. So what's your point?
Jack
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,08:16) The problem is Jesus is not like every one else. He is in very nature God, we are not in very nature God.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.Did you not know that Jesus is our brother?
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Hebrews 2:10-11 (New International Version)
10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.We are the same kind as him. He calls us 'brother'. So if he is God, then are we? Rather, he is the son of God and we are the sons of God.
We are in the same family as him, he is our brother.
This understanding needs to be espoused when you venture into 'ontology'.Again WJ, you are confused by nature verses identity. Jesus is identified as Lord and is greater than us. In kind, we are or will be the same.
t8If we are going to be the same kind which is man created in the image of God, then that means that Jesus is merely a man!
Your post is a diversion from the fact that Jesus is the “One Spirit” by which we and everyone else are joined! Will we ever be like Jesus in every way t8?
Please think before you answer!
WJ
Kurios
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their masterIt is a title given not just to God.
Example. God is great. But we use the word great to describe other things.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,08:49) If we are going to be the same kind which is man created in the image of God, then that means that Jesus is merely a man!
Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself and partook of flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had in the beginning. For us, we are born flesh, and then we receive a new body. Not much is known about that except to say that we will be like him and part of the same family. He will call us brother.We are the same as him. We are not God and neither is he. He is the son of God and we are the sons of God.
Quite easy to comprehend WJ. It is not hard to comprehend.
We are of his kind.
This is the understanding of ontology you seek. I might sound confident, and that is because I am. I am repeating scripture.
Yes I understand what JA is saying now.
You guys just ignore what you want to ignore and hone in on stuff where you think you have a defense.
That is not the hallmarks of a truth seeker.
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:49) Kurios
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their masterIt is a title given not just to God.
Example. God is great. But we use the word great to describe other things.
t8But you haven't explained why the Apostles chose to use the word “Kurios” invariably in the NT for Jesus, knowing full well it is the same word used in the LXX in every case for YHWH?
The Apostle Jude the brother of James says Jesus is the Lord (Kurios) that saved them out of Egypt, (Jude 1:4, 5) why don't you address that scripture and the one that Paul speaks when he said the drank of that spiritual rock which is Christ and they Tempted Christ. (1 Cor 10:4, 9)
That was YHWH you know!
So stop with all the accusations that we are in a corner and to stuborn to listen or change when in fact is seems you are doing the dance at the moment!
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:49) It is a title given not just to God.
Thats what we have been trying to tell you when the title “Theos” (God) is quoted by you in 1 Cor 8:6.You see how circular your arguments have become?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,08:49) If we are going to be the same kind which is man created in the image of God, then that means that Jesus is merely a man!
Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself and partook of flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had in the beginning. For us, we are born flesh, and then we receive a new body. Not much is known about that except to say that we will be like him and part of the same family. He will call us brother.We are the same as him. We are not God and neither is he. He is the son of God and we are the sons of God.
Quite easy to comprehend WJ. It is not hard to comprehend.
We are of his kind.
This is the understanding of ontology you seek. I might sound confident, and that is because I am. I am repeating scripture.
t8You didn't answer the question, you are only addressing the humanity of Jesus.
Will we ever be like Jesus in every way?
Simple question and surely it is not hard to understand is it?
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:54) We are the same as him.
Does all things consist by you? Can we uphold all things by the word of our power? Can we dwell in believers all over the world hearing and answering their prayers and bearing there burdens all at the same time? Can we be in the midst of two or three who are gathered in his name all around the world and speak to them at the same time?Will we ever be like that t8?
WJ
In other words WJ, you are really trying to convince us that there is NOT one God the Father, and there is NOT one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is it in a nutshell isn't it.
Yet Paul said for US, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
You are preaching the opposite and trying to convince us to deny what Paul wrote.
I will cover your circular argument point in another post.
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,16:55) Yes I understand what JA is saying now. You guys just ignore what you want to ignore and hone in on stuff where you think you have a defense.
That is not the hallmarks of a truth seeker.
LOL we bring up valid questions and points like you think you do and now it is time for the “ad-hominems”.
Come on t8 don't give up on the scripture that we present! You started this!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,09:09) Will we ever be like that t8?
Ah hah. Again WJ, you display your ignorance about nature and identity. Jesus and us are sons. But because of WHO Jesus is, he is greater in every way to us. After all he is the bridegroom and we are the bride.And that begs the question, does a bridegroom ever ask another species to be married?
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,17:10) In other words WJ, you are really trying to convince us that there is NOT one God the Father, and there is NOT one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is it in a nutshell isn't it. Yet Paul said for US, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
You are preaching the opposite and trying to convince us to deny what Paul wrote.
I will cover your circular argument point in another post.
t8No I am not trying to convince you anything. Your mind is made up. I could say you are proud and unteachable but I won't because that is a tactic that has no use IMO.
What I am trying to say is the whole council of God does not rest on a few isolated text but is found throughout scriptures.
You cannot just pile scriptures up with your bias and then just ignore all the rest that contradict or at least imply something contrary to what you believe!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 25 2010,17:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,09:09) Will we ever be like that t8?
Ah hah. Again WJ, you display your ignorance about nature and identity. Jesus and us are sons. But because of WHO Jesus is, he is greater in every way to us. After all he is the bridegroom and we are the bride.And that begs the question, does a bridegroom ever ask another species to be married?
t8I didn't think you would answer the question and you never will because my question goes right to the core of your belief that Jesus is like us in every way!
Shadows and dust t8 is what you are offering. But you bring up a valid point and I don't think that you gave it much thought before you posted.
God was married to Israel t8. What does that tell you?
WJ
Jack,
What is the 'Form of God'
Is it not a Spirit?Flesh and blood cannot see Spirit.
When man sheds his sinful state then he will assume a spiritual body and, then, they will see God is His 'Spiritual form', and scriptures tells us that.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2010,08:49) Kurios
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their masterIt is a title given not just to God.
Example. God is great. But we use the word great to describe other things.
So what? The name YHWH translates into the new testament as “kurios” (Lord). So you may define kurios how you want.Jack
t8 said:
Quote And that begs the question, does a bridegroom ever ask another species to be married?
t8,You are ignoring what you want to ignore. In the old testament the Husband was God. Jesus is our Husband. Ergo….
Jack
KJ,
So you can read and find Scriptures to cause a dispute or deny a valid claim. So, can it be assumed then that you can actually understand Truth as well. After all, to successfully and consustently deny Truth, you have to first understand what Truth is.“To which of the angels did he say, 'you are my son, today I have begotten you'.
Why did you only quote the first part of that verse?
You know, yourself, that this verse refers to Jesus' appointment as 'honored', 'begotten','reborn' human Son of God. No angel ever achieved that status. Jesus was in 'human' form when his Father said that to him.
Jesus was, before, in heaven, Son of God, during his commission unto his death, and after he was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit to assume a spiritual body in heaven. So at what point was Jesus ever Not a Son of God? But at that point he became the 'First', 'primary', 'Begotten' Son of God, Heir to the promise, just as Isaac became 'Only', 'Special', 'Begotten', 'only' Son of Abraham, for we know that Abraham had other Sons: Ishmael, his 'firstborn' and others, it is said., yet Isaac is called 'Only Son'.
KJ, if you are trying to make a claim against me, or anyone else, be true to your claim and don't quote 'half truths'.
“Two men at a party ogling the finely dressed women.
After checking out a few, Man one says to man two, ' Hey, check out that classy woman over there!”
Man two looks shocked and dismayed and exclaims, 'That's no classy woman… That's my Wife!' “KJ, you would just say 'That's no woman', eh?
Saying, 'You are my son' is a prelude to the spiritual adoption, second part of the verse.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,08:47) t8 said: Quote We are the same kind as him. He calls us 'brother'. So if he is God, then are we? Rather, he is the son of God and we are the sons of God. We are in the same family as him, he is our brother.
This understanding needs to be espoused when you venture into 'ontology'.Christ is our brother by adoption. He was not adopted. So what's your point?
Jack
We are brothers and we will be like him. We are of the same family of God, and Christ is the bridegroom.You cannot say that God is any of these can you? But of Jesus you can and it is taught.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,09:15) No I am not trying to convince you anything. Your mind is made up. I could say you are proud and unteachable but I won't because that is a tactic that has no use IMO.
Yes you will not convince me of anything until you can demonstrate it in scripture. Using extra-biblical references and doctrines as support should not be needed. Just give me scripture.Paul said “There is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ”.
You teach 'That there is not one God the Father and not one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ'.
This is why you will not convince me. You say the opposite of scripture and it is scripture that will convince me.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,08:29) t8 said: Quote Did you not know that Lord and YHWH are not the same word? The name YHWH translates into the New testament as “Kurios” (or Lord). ALWAYS!
Jack
Hi Jack.This is really a whole other topic, but here is a brief.
You need to study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman.
OK, I don't always speak in King James, but you should know that when the King James Version translates the Hebrew word for YHWH as lord, it uses LORD in all capitals. When it translates the Hebrew word adownai, as lord it uses Lord with only the 'L' in the upper case. Lastly, the translation of adown is lord without any use a capital letter at all.
In the New Testament Greek there is one word for lord, i.e., kurios. The King James Version translated this as either Lord, lord, or sir. (There are only four verses where the KJV translated kurios as LORD
e.g., The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”'
It is important to understand the uses of Lord to mean YHWH and the uses of Lord to mean our Lord and savior are rightly divided.
Quote 1 Corinthians 15:28 “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” –SF
SF, I think I know why trinitarians don't often quote this scripture, but often allude to it. (The Son again subjecting himself to God.)
SF, do you take this scripture to mean that God will literally be in people?Quote David, Please respect my new user name or my real name which is Jack. For you to still call me “thinker” is for you to place yourself over me.
–Jack.
So you finally acknowledge that “Thinker” is not an appropriate name for you. (Glad you finally saw the irony as well.):D
Quote Explain your statement below: “All of this shows the scriptural understanding (as well as the same understanding by Christian writers of the first centuries) of “god” as applied to angels and certain men who were trying to follow God or who were representatives or ambassadors for God”.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2907
Is Jesus merely a “representative of God” as the angels? If you say yes then explain how He can be superior to the angels which you say are also representatives of God.
–Jack.
Jack, WJ does this to me all the time too. He often takes what I say and inserts the word “just” or “merely” as you have done. Of course he is not ONLY a representative of God. He is many things. But he IS a representative of God, is he not? Did he not represent God, as an ambassador?
Jack, here are two basic definitions of representative. You are using the first one maybe and I am using the second:
1. One that serves as an example or type for others of the same classification.
2. One that serves as a delegate or agent for another.
Many people in the Bible would fit the second, pretty much anyone God sends to give his message.Quote Jesus is called “The God” (hotheos) in John 1:18 and Hebrews 1:8. On another thread you seem to imply that “The God” would be equivalent to the name “God Almighty”. You said,
“The idea that anyone called by the word “god” is either “The God” or a “false god” is a Title Confusion Trick…. The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2907
Did you mean to say above that the expression “The God” is equivalent to the term “God Almighty”?
No, I didnt' mean that. Let me restate it:
The idea that anyone called by the word “god” is either “The [Almighty] God” or a “false god” is a Title Confusion Trick….
What I mean is, there is a third option. Angels are not The Almighty and they are not false gods. Etc.Quote Is Jesus a true “hotheos” or a false “hotheos” like satan? JACK, YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE VERY SAME TITLE CONFUSION TRICK!
You only allow for those two options. This is a fallacy, presenting two options when there is a third.Quote Angels are not called sons of God anywhere in the Bible. –Jack
Jack, before I show you a scripture where they are (and it's not in Genesis) will you actually concede that you are wrong if I plainly show such a scripture?Quote Your claim that you view Jesus as superior to the angels has just fallen apart. If the name “Son” in reference to Jesus was not a name that is by far superior to the angels, then why do you say that angels are also called “sons”? I'll tell you why. You do this because you do not view the Jesus' name as “Son” as a name that is by far superior to the angels.
You know, Adam (and other people) are also called sons of God. You do know what the word “son” means?
Are you saying that I can't claim that Jesus is superior to other sons of God, just because they too are called “sons of God”? Jesus was the “only begotten” son of God, obviously that makes him special. Obviously, him coming to the earth and what he did for us makes him “superior” as you say.Quote So I will not apologize! When I argue that the name “Son” means that Jesus is superior to the angels you reply saying, “But angels are called sons too”. So how can you claim that you believe that Jesus is superior to the angels? EXPLAIN DAVID. If YOU DON'T EXPLAIN I WILL BE FORCED TO PAINT YOU AS A MIKEBOLL WHO COMPARES JESUS TO SATAN.
“Son” is not a word that means: “superior to angels.” Go look it up. It's in most dictionaries.
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