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Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 11 2011,07:10) Pierre said: Quote KJ my big point on baptism is that no one can be saved by a ritual of water in Christ sacrifice.
but by immersing himself in the word and spirit of Christ that will save the one who does that.
following the words of live ,
Pierre
Pierre,I almost totally agree with you. The only thing I disagree with is your suggestion that we must immerse ourselves. The sinner is always passive in baptism no matter what kind of baptism and there were “various” kinds of baptism (Heb. 9:10).
You are speaking about baptism in the classical sense of the term and this is the “baptizing” that Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 28:19. The word “baptizing” is a participle and in the Greek a participle is a verbal adjective. A verbal adjective modifies the action of a noun. Jesus commanded His disciples to “make disciples.” The participle in the phrase “baptizing them” identifies the action of the noun. When we make disciples we are “baptizing them” into the TEACHING of the Tri-une God.
I know you that don't believe in the Trinity. But I am glad that you understand that the participle “baptizing” in the classical sense of the term is what Jesus was speaking about.
blessings,
KJ
KJwe are saved by FAITH ;Heb 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Heb 11:2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.and how can we have faith in God unless we learn who he his,
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
Heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
Heb 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
Heb 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Heb 12:8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!(soul)no trinity there,there never was a trinity ,there never will be one,holy spirit as no name if he or it does tell me.
Pierre
Marty,
I have a second question for you now. If Paul was speaking about water baptism in 1 Corinthians 1, then why did he say to them, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.”? It was on account of the church at Corinth elevating certain men to the position of Christ that Paul said, “I thank God that I baptized none of you.” Why would his baptizing them in water be a reason for them to elevate him to the status of Christ?
It does not make any sense that Paul was speaking about water baptism. Baptizing with water would not have caused them to elevate Paul and others to the status of Christ. Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius with the Holy Spirit. The power to baptize with the Holy Spirit would give cause to elevate Paul to the status of Christ.
The two questions:
1. Why do men still need to be bathed in water if God has CLEANSED them?
2. Why would Paul's baptizing with water be a reason to elevate him to the status of Christ?
Jack
TO ALL,
You need to follow the Acts story all the way through. Water baptism was no longer required after God revealed to Peter that God had CLEANSED all men. After the vision Peter only allowed Cornelius and his house to be baptized to indicate that all men had been accepted into the covenant and not Jews alone. But he did not require it. Note that Peter said, “What forbids these to be baptized with water”? This was not a mandate like before.
Baptism was the old covenant bathing ritual. After God had CLEANSED all men there was no more need for men to be bathed. Cornelius and his house were the last to be baptized with water. After that Paul baptized only with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism was finished.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 11 2011,00:42) Marty said: Quote He said that he baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, and so he did baptize these, and by his statement that the Lord did not send him to baptize, he was sent to preach the gospel. Salvation is by Faith, and so, before anyone is baptized in water they must first hear and believe the gospel, and then they must repent.
Hi Marty,My reply is two-fold:
1. Paul baptized only with the Holy Spirit. Look at the Acts account where Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius. It says that the Corinthians were also baptized. Paul said that he baptized none of them. So who baptized the Corinthians on that occasion? Answer: Jesus baptized them. Did Jesus pour down water from heaven Marty?
2. The word “baptism” in Paul's letter to the Corinthians does not involve water being applied to the person. I have already given the example of the Israelites being baptized by their passage through the Red sea on DRY land.
Where does it say that Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius with water? It does not say that. The only baptism that was in effect by this time was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Corinthians were also baptized on that occasion. Paul said that he baptized none of them. So who baptized them since there were no other apostles with Paul on that occcasion? Answer: Jesus baptized them. He promised that He would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Cornelius and his house were the last to be baptized by water. God told Peter that He had CLEANSED all men. Why would men need to be bathed in water after God cleansed them?
Please answer this Marty.
Quote But I will ask you the same question that I asked Keith and that is: CAN YOU PRODUCE A SCRIPTURE THAT STATES THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS “THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD”?
Review this thread Marty. Keith has already given you the scriptures abundantly and you deny them as you deny Jesus' word in Matthew 28:19.WHY WOULD MEN NEED TO BE BATHED IN WATER AFTER GOD CLEANSED THEM? PLEASE ANSWER!
You have no proof that Jesus commmanded His disciples to baptize with water. Period! Therefore, your argument that Matthew 28:19 is not authentic because the so called “formula” differs with that of the apostles in not valid.
Those who believe in water baptism repeat the Catholic error! God has cleansed me!
Jack
Hi Jack:Paul cannot baptize anyone with Holy Spirit. This is an exclusive right and position of Jesus Christ my Lord, and so, whether or not the word “water” is used by the Apostle Paul when he says he baptized those whom he mentions in 1 Co. 1 that is what is implied.
You want a scripture which states that someone was baptized in water, well here is some scripture:
Quote Acts 8:36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Neither you nor Keith want to answer the question relative to a scripture which states that THE HOLY GHOST IS THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD because you know that there is none. What you have given me is your opinion of what you believe that the scriptures state, but no, without a scripture you have no case.
Love in Christ,
MartyIt seems to me that the real important thing is to walk like Jesus did. That's what water baptism is a symbol of: dying to yourself/your sin, and being made new and alive in Messiah. Whether you are water baptized or not, you can and should walk in the principle of it. Moreover, whether you believe in the trinity or not you can and should walk as Jesus walked. Completely surrendered, obediant, doing only what the Father told him. This is the walk of a true disciple b/c He is the way, the truth, and the life.
Water baptism is not a salvation issue. Neither is whether or not you believe in the trinity. The real issue is whats in your heart. Do you love Him? Do you obey Him?
When we personally attack each other, who are we manifesting?
Hi Jack and WJ,
Why don't you guys use this verse?
Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him,
two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 11 2011,03:08) TO ALL, You need to follow the Acts story all the way through. Water baptism was no longer required after God revealed to Peter that God had CLEANSED all men. After the vision Peter only allowed Cornelius and his house to be baptized to indicate that all men had been accepted into the covenant and not Jews alone. But he did not require it. Note that Peter said, “What forbids these to be baptized with water”? This was not a mandate like before.
Baptism was the old covenant bathing ritual. After God had CLEANSED all men there was no more need for men to be bathed. Cornelius and his house were the last to be baptized with water. After that Paul baptized only with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism was finished.
KJ
Hi Jack:I believe that you need to read what the Apostle Peter said to Cornelius and his group when he commanded them to be baptized in Water. Here is what he said:
Quote 10:46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
He said: CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER and the answer is no, because then he commanded them to baptized in the name of the Lord.
Jack, you are going to mislead people with this understanding. Water baptism is something that every believer should do in obedience to God's Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Shania @ Mar. 11 2011,03:11) It seems to me that the real important thing is to walk like Jesus did. That's what water baptism is a symbol of: dying to yourself/your sin, and being made new and alive in Messiah. Whether you are water baptized or not, you can and should walk in the principle of it. Moreover, whether you believe in the trinity or not you can and should walk as Jesus walked. Completely surrendered, obediant, doing only what the Father told him. This is the walk of a true disciple b/c He is the way, the truth, and the life. Water baptism is not a salvation issue. Neither is whether or not you believe in the trinity. The real issue is whats in your heart. Do you love Him? Do you obey Him?
When we personally attack each other, who are we manifesting?
Hi Shania,Here is the meaning of Matthew 28:19…
The Church is Christs body
Water baptism is a “symbol” of being immersed in God's word.
That he(YHVH) might sanctify and cleanse it(the church) with
the washing of water by “The word”(HolySpirit). (Eph.5:26)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 11 2011,03:04) Marty, I have a second question for you now. If Paul was speaking about water baptism in 1 Corinthians 1, then why did he say to them, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.”? It was on account of the church at Corinth elevating certain men to the position of Christ that Paul said, “I thank God that I baptized none of you.” Why would his baptizing them in water be a reason for them to elevate him to the status of Christ?
It does not make any sense that Paul was speaking about water baptism. Baptizing with water would not have caused them to elevate Paul and others to the status of Christ. Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius with the Holy Spirit. The power to baptize with the Holy Spirit would give cause to elevate Paul to the status of Christ.
The two questions:
1. Why do men still need to be bathed in water if God has CLEANSED them?
2. Why would Paul's baptizing with water be a reason to elevate him to the status of Christ?
Jack
Hi Jack:The answer to your first question is answered by the following scriptures:
Quote 1 Co. 1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
The answer to your second question is that water baptism is an act of obedience to God's Word, and it is a public confession of a believer's union with the Lord in his death, burial and resurrection.
Quote Romans 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Quote 1 Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is,eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The figure 8 represents a new beginning. When Noah and his family were saved by the Ark, there was a new beginning for humanity. When an individual is saved by faith in Christ Jesus, water baptism symbolizes being united in Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. It is a new beginning when one is resurrection to the newness of life in Christ Jesus. Of course, it is not the water that cleanses us, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us that is why he says:
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2011,18:40) Yeah, about that……………we know God's name is YHVH. We know God's Son's name is Jesus. And we know the Holy Spirit doesn't have a personal name because it's not a person.
This is a lie against the scripture for the Holy Spirit has all the characteristics of a person and the Holy Spirit shares a name with the Father and Jesus according to Matt 28:19.WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2011,19:07) WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS “ONE NAME” THAT ENCOMPASSES FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT? The Apostles DID baptize in one name, the name JESUS CHRIST. Do you think the Father and the Holy Spirit share the name JESUS CHRIST with the Son?
mike
Yes because the Father and the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything unless it is through Jesus name and it is by that “One Name” that we Glorify God and it is by that “One Name” that we can even approach God.
Now I will ask the same question of you?
WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS “ONE NAME” THAT ENCOMPASSES THE FATHER?
Jesus shares the Fathers name also as well as the Holy Spirit.
A name in Hebrew depicted the nature of the one that had it.
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,21:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,04:03) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,11:25) Yes, I know “Trinitarians” used to burn people like me at the stake if someone did not believe in their doctrine although they cannot even explain the doctrine, and they do not have any scripture which states what they believe, and today, they want to insist that if you do not believe their doctrine you cannot be a member of their church.
Wow MartyStop being hypocritical Marty and do some research of church history and you will see that many Trinitarians were killed by the Arians also. Athanasius was exiled by an Arian.
Now you claim that because we say you would be classified as a Heretic for denying the word of God that someone is going to kill you?
What a diversion! Why didn't you answer my questions about the scriptures I gave you?
One of them is your own proof text. Here they are again…
If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God?
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10
Does the Father search himself?
If the Spirit is the Father then who is this…
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the “Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father“. Gal 4:6
Is the Father the Spirit that the Father sent crying “Abba” Father in us?
Does the Father cry “Abba” to himself?
Please explain Marty!
WJ
Hi Keith:Do you have a scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD?
Why don't you answer this question?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYes, and I gave you several passages of many already that show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus but is mentioned with them including Matt 28:19 which you have rejected as scripture so why ask the quesiton again?
Is there a scripture that says the Holy Spirit is not a person?
Can you prove by scripture the Holy Spirit is not a person?
I hear all the chatter and the claims that you and Mike make about the Holy Spirit not being a person yet neither one of you can show us how the Holy Spirit is not a person using scripture.
The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person? If he is not a person then what is he?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2011,19:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,09:31)
Therefore who can believe anything that Mike trys to teach from scriptures since he believes that they are corrupt.
Now that statement is a flat out lie, Keith. First, we are not talking about scriptureS, with an “S”, but ONE scripture.
No its not a lie Mike. Where is your evidence Mike that Matthew 28:19 is not scripture? The scripture in the Bible is a whole and if you think one scripture that is unambiguous is corrupt then you believe the “Whole” is corrupt because a little leaven leavens the whole lump.TO YOU THE BIBLE IS CORRUPT BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE MATTEW 28:19 IS CORRUPT WHICH IS IN THE BIBLE!
I don't believe any scripture is corrupt inluding 1 John 5:7 which is found in some manuscripts and doesn't contradict the whole.
How can you teach that any scripture is Gods word to someone if you accept some and reject others?
Your doubt of Matt 28:19 which is unambiguous is proof to me that no matter what, your doctrine is more important than the written word in the Bible. Even the JWs admit it is scripture!
You can't claim you believe in the authenticity of the Bible which contains the scriptures if you doubt them. That is why you doubt scriptures that say Jesus is God.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,04:28) Marty The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person?
If he is not a person then what is he?WJ
Hi WJ,So glad you asked (Matt.7:7)… “He” is YHVH! …(2Tm.2:13)
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 10 2011,12:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,04:28) Marty The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person?
If he is not a person then what is he?WJ
Hi WJ,So glad you asked (Matt.7:7)… “He” is YHVH! …(2Tm.2:13)
EDYHVH Is a name!
The question was…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,04:28) The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person?
If he is not a person then “WHAT IS HE?WJ
Once again, a name by itself does not “identify” what he is.WJ
Mike said:
Quote We know God's Son's name is Jesus.
Yeap! The name “Jesus” means “YHWH saves.”“For you shall call His name 'Jesus' for HE shall save HIS people from their sins.”
KJ
WJ said to Mike:
Quote Your doubt of Matt 28:19 which is unambiguous is proof to me that no matter what, your doctrine is more important than the written word in the Bible. Even the JWs admit it is scripture! You can't claim you believe in the authenticity of the Bible which contains the scriptures if you doubt them. That is why you doubt scriptures that say Jesus is God.
Keith,The fact that Mike denies the authenticity of scripture proves that you have backed him into a wall. Once a man runs out of arguments then the denial of scripture is all he has left. You have done a masterful job my friend.
Jack
WJ said:
Quote The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person? If he is not a person then what is he?
And He does not speak on His own authority.Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 10 2011,13:18) WJ said: Quote The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person? If he is not a person then what is he?
And He does not speak on His own authority.Jack
Amen! JackWhat about that Marty and ED? If the Holy Spirit is the Father than why can't he speak on his own authority?
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 10 2011,13:16) WJ said to Mike: Quote Your doubt of Matt 28:19 which is unambiguous is proof to me that no matter what, your doctrine is more important than the written word in the Bible. Even the JWs admit it is scripture! You can't claim you believe in the authenticity of the Bible which contains the scriptures if you doubt them. That is why you doubt scriptures that say Jesus is God.
Keith,The fact that Mike denies the authenticity of scripture proves that you have backed him into a wall. Once a man runs out of arguments then the denial of scripture is all he has left. You have done a masterful job my friend.
Jack
Thanks JackBut it all has been said before and to what avail? They will continue teaching against Jesus words, but hopefully someone listening will see Mike and Marty doubting the authenticity of the scriptures, for that will help them to decide not to put much stock in their teachings and that it is proof of their personal bias over the Word of God.
WJ
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