Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[terraricca]

wj

this is were your confusion lays
One
See also: Substance theory
Plotinus taught that there is a supreme, totally transcendent “One”, containing no division, multiplicity or distinction; likewise it is beyond all categories of being and non-being. The concept of “being” is derived by us from the objects of human experience called the dyad, and is an attribute of such objects, but the infinite, transcendent One is beyond all such objects, and therefore is beyond the concepts that we derive from them. The One “cannot be any existing thing”, and cannot be merely the sum of all such things (compare the Stoic doctrine of disbelief in non-material existence), but “is prior to all existents”. Thus, no attributes can be assigned to the One. We can only identify it with the Good and the principle of Beauty.

For example, thought cannot be attributed to the One because thought implies distinction between a thinker and an object of thought (again dyad). Even the self-contemplating intelligence (the noesis of the nous) must contain duality. “Once you have uttered 'The Good,' add no further thought: by any addition, and in proportion to that addition, you introduce a deficiency.” [III.8.11] Plotinus denies sentience, self-awareness or any other action (ergon) to the One [V.6.6]. Rather, if we insist on describing it further, we must call the One a sheer Dynamis or potentiality without which nothing could exist. [III.8.10] As Plotinus explains in both places and elsewhere [e.g. V.6.3], it is impossible for the One to be Being or a self-aware Creator God. At [V.6.4], Plotinus compared the One to “light”, the Divine Nous (first will towards Good) to the “Sun”, and lastly the Soul to the “Moon” whose light is merely a “derivative conglomeration of light from the 'Sun'”. The first light could exist without any celestial body.

The One, being beyond all attributes including being and non-being, is the source of the world—but not through any act of creation, willful or otherwise, since activity cannot be ascribed to the unchangeable, immutable One. Plotinus argues instead that the multiple cannot exist without the simple. The “less perfect” must, of necessity, “emanate”, or issue forth, from the “perfect” or “more perfect”. Thus, all of “creation” emanates from the One in succeeding stages of lesser and lesser perfection. These stages are not temporally isolated, but occur throughout time as a constant process. Plotinus here resolves the issues between Plato's ontology and Aristotle's Actus et potentia. The issue being that Aristotle, through resolving Parmenides' Third Man argument against Plato's forms and ontology created a second philosophical school of thought. Plotinus here then reconciles the “Good over the Demiurge” from Plato's Timaeus with Aristotle's static “unmoved mover” of Actus et potentia. Plotinus does this by making the potential or force (dunamis) the Monad or One and making the demiurge or dyad, the action or energy component in philosophical cognitive ontology. Later Neoplatonic philosophers, especially Iamblichus, added hundreds of intermediate beings as emanations between the One and humanity; but Plotinus' system was much simpler in comparison.

[edit] Emanation by the One
Plotinus offers an alternative to the orthodox Christian notion of creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which attributes to God the deliberation of mind and action of a will, although Plotinus never mentions Christianity in any of his works. Emanation ex deo (out of God), confirms the absolute transcendence of the One, making the unfolding of the cosmos purely a consequence of its existence; the One is in no way affected or diminished by these emanations. Plotinus uses the analogy of the Sun which emanates light indiscriminately without thereby diminishing itself, or reflection in a mirror which in no way diminishes or otherwise alters the object being reflected.

The first emanation is Nous (Divine Mind, logos or order, Thought, Reason), identified metaphorically with the Demiurge in Plato's Timaeus. It is the first Will toward Good. From Nous proceeds the World Soul, which Plotinus subdivides into upper and lower, identifying the lower aspect of Soul with nature. From the world soul proceeds individual human souls, and finally, matter, at the lowest level of being and thus the least perfected level of the cosmos. Despite this relatively pedestrian assessment of the material world, Plotinus asserted the ultimately divine nature of material creation since it ultimately derives from the One, through the mediums of nous and the world soul. It is by the Good or through beauty that we recognize the One, in material things and then in the Forms.[6]

The essentially devotional nature of Plotinus' philosophy may be further illustrated by his concept of attaining ecstatic union with the One (henosis see Iamblichus). Porphyry relates that Plotinus attained such a union four times during the years he knew him. This may be related to enlightenment, liberation, and other concepts of mystical union common to many Eastern and Western traditions.

[edit] The True Human and Happiness
Authentic human happiness for Plotinus consists of the true human identifying with that which is the best in the universe. Because happiness is beyond anything physical, Plotinus stresses the point that worldly fortune does not control true human happiness, and thus “… there exists no single human being that does not either potentially or effectively possess this thing we hold to constitute happiness.” (Enneads I.4.4) The issue of happiness is one of Plotinus’ greatest imprints on Western thought, as he is one of the first to introduce the idea that eudaimonia (happiness) is attainable only within consciousness.

The true human is an incorporeal contemplative capacity of the soul, and superior to all things corporeal. It then follows that real human happiness is independent of the physical world. Real happiness is, instead, dependent on the metaphysical and authentic human being found in this highest capacity of Reason. “For man, and especially the Proficient, is not the Couplement of Soul and body: the proof is that man can be disengaged from the body and disdain its nominal goods.” (Enneads I.4.14) The human who has achieved happiness will not be bothered by sickness, discomfort, etc., as his focus is on the greatest things. Authentic human happiness is the utilization of the most authentically human capacity of contemplation. Even in daily, physical action, the flourishing human’s “…Act is determined by the higher phase of the Soul.” (Enneads III.4.6) Even in the most dramatic arguments Plotinus considers (if the Proficient is subject to extreme physical torture, for example), he concludes this only strengthens his claim of true happiness being metaphysical, as the truly happy human being would understand that that which is being tortured is merely a body, not the conscious self, and happiness could persist.

Plotinus offers a comprehensive description of his conception of a person who has achieved eudaimonia. “The perfect life” involves a man who commands reason and contemplation.(Enneads I.4.4) A happy person will not sway between happy and sad, as many of Plotinus’ contemporaries believed. Stoics, for example, question the ability of someone to be happy (presupposing happiness is contemplation) if they are mentally incapacitated or even asleep- Plotinus disregards this claim, as the soul and true human do not sleep or even exist in time, nor will a living human who has achieved eudaimonia suddenly stop using its greatest, most authentic capacity just because of the body’s discomfort in the physical realm. “…The Proficient’s will is set always and only inward.” (Enneads I.4.11)

Overall, happiness for Plotinus is “…a flight from this world's ways and things.” (Theat 176AB) and a focus on the highest, i.e. Forms and The One.

[edit] Against causal astrology
Plotinus seems to be one of the first to argue against the still popular notion of causal Astrology. In the late tractate 2.3, “Are the stars causes?”, Plotinus makes the argument that specific stars influencing one's fortune (a common hellenistic theme) attributes irrationality to a perfect universe, and invites moral turpitude[clarification needed]. He does, however, claim the stars and planets are ensouled, as witnessed by their movement.

there also was a other man called Origene who came after around 244 ad, the Origene of Alexandry and that man was the confution in the works of the first Origene, the trinity comes more from Plotinus and Longinus

Cassius Longinus (philosopher)
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For the anonymous author of the treatise, On the Sublime, see Longinus (literature).

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Cassius Longinus (ca. 213–273 AD) was an Hellenistic rhetorician and philosophical critic. He was perhaps a native of Emesa in Syria. He studied at Alexandria under Ammonius Saccas and Origen the Pagan, and taught for thirty years in Athens, one of his pupils being Porphyry. Longinus did not embrace the Neoplatonism then being developed by Plotinus, but continued as a Platonist of the old type and his reputation as a literary critic was immense. During a visit to the east, he became a teacher, and subsequently chief counsellor to Zenobia, queen of Palmyra. It was by his advice that she endeavoured to regain her independence. Emperor Aurelian, however, crushed the revolt, and Longinus was executed.

Contents [hide]
1 Life
2 Writings
3 References
4 Bibliography
5 References

[edit] Life
The origin of his gentile name Cassius is unknown; it can only be conjectured that he was the client to some Cassius Longinus, or that his ancestors had received the Roman franchise through the influence of some Cassius Longinus. He was born about 213, and was killed in 273, at the age of sixty. The suggestion that his original name was Dionysius arose only because the 1st century rhetorical treatise On the Sublime was ascribed to a “Dionysius or Longinus” in the medieval period.

His native place is uncertain; some say that Longinus was born at Palmyra, and others call him a Syrian or a native of Emesa, The belief that he was of Syrian origin is only an inference from the fact that his mother was a Syrian woman, and from an obscure passage in the Historia Augusta,[1] from which it may be inferred that he could speak the Syriac language. He may have been born at Athens, for the Suda[2] states that Fronto of Emesa, the uncle of Longinus, taught rhetoric at Athens, and on his death in Athens left behind him Longinus, the son of his sister Frontonis.

It would seem that Fronto took special care of the education of his nephew, and on his death-bed he made him his heir. In the preface to his work On Ends, which is preserved in Porphyry's Life of Plotinus, Longinus himself relates that from his early age he made many journeys with his parents, that he visited many countries, and became acquainted with all those who at the time enjoyed a great reputation as philosophers, and among whom the most illustrious were Ammonius Saccas, Origen the Pagan, Plotinus, and Amelius. Of the first two Longinus was a pupil for a long time, but Longinus did not embrace the Neoplatonism then being developed by Ammonius and Plotinus, but continued as a Platonist of the old type.

Longinus in his study of philosophy made himself thoroughly familiar Plato's works; and that he himself was a genuine Platonist is evident from the fragments still extant, as well as from the commentaries he wrote on several of Plato's dialogues; and the few fragments of these commentaries which have come down to us, show that he was free from the allegorical notions by which his contemporaries claimed to have discovered the wisdom of the ancients. His commentaries not only explained the subject-matter discussed by Plato, but also his style and diction. In opposition to Plotinus, Longinus upheld the doctrine that the Platonic ideas existed outside the divine Nous. Plotinus, after reading his treatise On First Principles, remarked that Longinus might be a scholar, but that he was no philosopher.[3]

After Longinus had learnt all he could from Ammonius at Alexandria, and the other philosophers whom he met in his travels, he returned to Athens. He there devoted himself with so much zeal to the instruction of his many pupils, that he scarcely had any time left for writing. The most distinguished of his pupils was Porphyry. At Athens he seems to have lectured on philosophy and criticism, as well as on rhetoric and grammar,[4] and the extent of his knowledge was so great, that Eunapius calls him “a living library” and “a walking museum;” but the power for which he was most celebrated was his critical skill,[5] and this was indeed so great, that the expression “to judge like Longinus” became synonymous with “to judge correctly”.[6]

After having spent much of his life at Athens, and composing the best of his works, he went to the East, either to see his friends at Emesa or to settle some of his family affairs. It seems to have been on that occasion that he became known to queen Zenobia of Palmyra, who, being a woman of great talent, and fond of the arts and literature, made him her teacher of Greek literature. As Longinus had no extensive library at his command at Palmyra, he was obliged almost entirely to abandon his literary pursuits, but he soon discovered another use for his talents; for when king Odaenathus died, and Zenobia had undertaken the government of her empire, she availed herself of the advice of Longinus, and it was he who, being an ardent lover of liberty, advised and encouraged her to shake off Roman rule, and become an independent sovereign. In consequence of this, Zenobia wrote a spirited letter to the Roman emperor Aurelian.[7] In 273, when Aurelian took and destroyed Palmyra, Longinus had to pay with his life for the advice which he had given to Zenobia.[8] This catastrophe must have been the more painful to Longinus, since the queen, after having fallen into the hands of the Romans, asserted her own innocence, and threw all the blame upon her advisers, and more especially upon Longinus. But he bore his execution with a firmness and cheerfulness worthy of a Socrates.[9]

In his private life he seems to have been very amiable; for although his pupil Porphyry left him, declaring that he would seek a better philosophy in the school of Plotinus, still Longinus did not show him any ill-will, but continued to treat him as a friend, and invited him to come to Palmyra.[10] He had an ardent love of liberty, and a great frankness both in expressing his own opinions and exposing the faults and errors of others.[11]

[edit] Writings
Notwithstanding his many avocations, Longinus composed a great number of works, which appear to have been held in the highest estimation, all of which have perished. It was once thought that the extant rhetorical treatise On the Sublime was written by him, but it is now thought to have been written by an unknown 1st century writer.[12] Among the works listed by the Suda there are Homeric Questions; Whether Homer is a Philosopher; Homeric Problems and Solutions; and two publications on Attic diction.[13] The most important of his philological works, – Philological Discourses – consisting of at least 21 books, is omitted. A considerable fragment of his On the Chief End is preserved by P
orphyry.[14] Under his name there are also extant Prolegomena to the Handbook of Hephaestion on metre, and the fragment of a treatise on rhetoric, inserted in the middle of a similar treatise by Apsines. It gives brief practical hints on invention, arrangement, style, memory and other things useful to the student.

so it is not found in Origene of Alexandria but another one later called as well Origene but with different views.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus,

You wrote:

Quote

Hebrew names also carry within the nature of the person.

Agreed!

You wrote:

Quote

All authority and power is given to Jesus.

I agree, although I will point that God gave Jesus the authority. Thus Jesus speaks and acts in God’s name as the Spirit of God dwells in them both.

You wrote:

Quote

Jesus said baptize in the “Name” singular of the three.

I agree as all three speak and act with the authority of God.

You wrote:

Quote

All fullness of the deity is in Jesus.

I agree as Jesus was tempted even as we are but without sin.  Jesus also has the authority to speak and act for God.

You wrote:

Quote

The apostles understood this revelation that the three were “One” and that the name of Jesus carried within it all the fullness of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

I disagree with the Trinity tenet but agree that the three are part of the unity that includes the children of God and which is linked by the Holy Spirit that thus is part of the unity.

I see no reason to say Matthew 28:19 was added later as Jesus acts and speaks with the authority of God and thus can be said to be God’s proxy.

[terraricca]

WJ

this is from Origene of Alexandri.

THE PHILOCALIA OF ORIGEN
CHAP. I. —-Of the inspiration of the Divine Scripture; how it is to be read and understood; why it is obscure; and what is the reason of the obscurity in it, and of what is impossible in some cases, or unreasonable, when it is taken literally. From the work on “Principles” and various other works of Origen.

The following analysis of Origen's scheme of interpretation may be useful to the reader:—-

Interpretation
|
|
—————————————————————————–
| | |
Literal (Body) Moral (Soul) Mystical (Spirit)
| |
————————- ————————-
| | | |
Actual Fictitious Allegory. Anagoge.
History. History. Prefiguring the Typifying the
Invented by the Holy Spirit history of Christ things of a higher
to convey moral and mystical and His Church. world in which
truths which earthly things everything of this
could not sufficiently typify. earth has its antitype.
In the law some things
were literally to be observed;
others were in the letter impossible
or absurd, but were intended
to convey moral and mystical teaching.

1. Inasmuch as when we investigate matters of such importance we are not content with common notions and such light as is given by the things that are seen, we strengthen our position by the additional evidence of the Scriptures, which we believe to be Divine, viz. both that which is called the Old Testament and that which is called the New, and endeavour with the help of reason |2 to confirm our faith. But as we have never yet discussed the Scriptures on the side of their Divine inspiration, let us bring together a few brief remarks concerning them, by way of showing upon what grounds we regard them as Divine. And before we proceed to make use of the text of the Scriptures and of what is revealed in them, a few particulars must be given concerning Moses and Jesus Christ—-the lawgiver of the Hebrews, and the Author of the saving doctrines of Christianity. For of all the numerous lawgivers that have arisen among Greeks and Barbarians, we recall no one who could induce other nations to eagerly accept his tenets; and although the professors of philosophic truth made elaborate efforts to establish their doctrine on a seeming basis of reason, not one of them succeeded in introducing into different nations the truth which he supported, or in influencing considerable numbers of one nation. And yet the lawgivers would have liked, if it had been possible, to bind the good laws, as they appeared to be, on the whole human race, and the teachers would desire that what they imagined to be truth should be spread throughout the world. Conscious, however, that they would not succeed if they invited men of different languages and of many nationalities to observe the law they promulgated, and accept the instruction they gave, they did not even attempt this at first, for they shrewdly suspected that the attempt would end in failure. But in every land, Greek and Barbarian, throughout the world, countless adherents of our faith may be found who have abandoned their ancestral customs and familiar gods, to become zealous observers of the law of Moses and eager disciples of Jesus Christ; and this in spite of the fact that they who submit to the law of Moses are hated by the worshippers of images, and they who accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ are not only hated but are in peril of death.

2. And if we realise in how very short a time, notwithstanding the plots laid against the professors of Christianity, whereby some perished and others lost their |3 possessions, the Word, though the number of the preachers was not great, has been everywhere preached throughout the world, so that Greeks and Barbarians, wise and foolish, submit themselves to the fear of God through Jesus, if, I say, we realise this, we shall not hesitate to say that there is something superhuman in the result. For Jesus taught with all authority and persuasiveness that the Word would prevail, so that one may reasonably regard His utterances as prophetic.1 For instance, “Before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.”2 And, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not eat in thy name, and drink in thy name? And I will say to them, depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I never knew you.”3 It was perhaps reasonable to think that He spoke these things at random, and that they were not true; but when the things spoken with such authority came to pass, it is manifest that God really took our nature upon Him and delivered doctrines of salvation to men.

3. Need I add how it was foretold that the promised princes should depart from Judah,4 and rulers from between his thighs, at the coming of Messiah for whom it is reserved, viz. the kingdom, and at the advent of the Expectation of the Gentiles? For it is surely clear from history and from what we see to-day, that from the times of Jesus there have been none who called themselves kings of the Jews; for everything whereon the Jews prided themselves, I mean the arrangements of the temple and the altar, the performance of the service, and the vestments of the high priest, has been abolished. For the prophecy was fulfilled which says, “The children of Israel shall abide many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without priesthood,5 and without Urim and Thummim.” 6 And |4 we turn the foregoing passage against our opponents, who, perplexed by what Jacob in Genesis says to Judah, allege that the Ethnarch sprung from the family of Judah, is the “governor of the people,” and that his seed shall not fail until the coming of Messiah of which they dream. For if “the children of Israel shall abide many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without priesthood, and without Urim and Thummin”; and from the time when the temple was destroyed there has been no sacrifice, nor altar, nor priesthood, it is clear that a prince has failed from Judah, and a ruler from between his thighs. And since the prophecy says, “A prince shall not fail from Judah, nor a ruler from between his thighs, until the things reserved for him shall come,”7 it is clear that He has come to whom the things reserved belong, viz. the Expectation of the Gentiles. And this is proved by the multitude of the Gentiles who have believed on God through Christ.

4. The Song in Deuteronomy also contains a prophecy of the future election of the foolish Gentiles on account of the sins of God's former people, and this has come to pass through Jesus only. “For they,” so the words stand, “have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God: they have provoked me to anger with their idols. And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people: I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.” 8 We can very cl
early understand how they who bore the name of Hebrews and provoked God to jealousy with that which is not God, and provoked Him to anger with their idols, were themselves provoked to jealousy and moved to anger with those which were not a people, the foolish people, whom God chose through the coming of Christ and through His disciples. “We see, then, our calling, that not many wise men after the flesh, not many |5 mighty, not many noble are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the base things and things that are despised, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that were before: and that Israel after the flesh may not boast before God.”9 For when the Apostle uses the word “flesh” he means “Israel.”

5. But what are we to say about the prophecies in the Psalms concerning Christ? Is there not a “song” entitled “For the Beloved”? 10 The Beloved's tongue is called “the pen of a ready writer”; He is fairer than the children of men, for grace is poured into His lips. A proof of the grace poured into His lips is the fact that though the whole period of His teaching was so short (He taught for something like a year and a few months), the world has been filled with His doctrine and with the religion which He brought. For “in his days righteousness hath sprung up, and abundance of peace to last to the end,” 11 for this lasting to the end is the meaning of the phrase “the moon shall be no more”; and “He shall have perpetual dominion from sea to sea, and from the rivers unto the ends of the earth.” And a sign is given to the house of David; for the Virgin did bear; she both conceived and bore a son, and His name is Immanuel, which being interpreted is God with us.12 The prophecy is fulfilled, as the same prophet says: “God is with us; be wise ye nations, and submit; ye that are mighty submit.”13 We of the Gentiles who have been led captive by the grace of His Word have been conquered and have submitted. But even the place of His birth was foretold: “For thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, art in no wise least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a governor, which shall be shepherd of my people Israel.”14 And the seventy weeks wore fulfilled, as Daniel |6 shows,15 when Christ the “governor” came. And, according to Job,16 He came who subdued the great sea-monster, and has given authority to His true disciples to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, being in no wise hurt by them.17 Let a man observe how the Apostles who were sent by Jesus to proclaim the Gospel went everywhere, and he cannot help seeing their superhuman daring in obedience to the Divine command. And if we inquire how it was that men when they heard new doctrines and strange words welcomed the Apostles, and in spite of their desire to plot against them were overcome by a certain Divine power guarding the speakers, we shall not disbelieve even if we are told that the Apostles did work miracles, God bearing witness to their words both by signs and wonders and by manifold powers.18

6. But in thus briefly summarising the proofs for the Godhead of Jesus, and making use of the words of the prophets concerning Him, we are at the same time proving the inspiration of the Scriptures which prophesy of Him, and are showing that those writings which proclaim His coming and teaching were delivered with all power and authority; and we say that if they have prevailed over the election from the Gentiles, it is because they were inspired. But we must say that the divinity of the prophetic utterances, and the spiritual meaning of the law of Moses, shone forth by the dwelling of Jesus on earth. For there could be no clear proofs of the inspiration of the ancient Scriptures before the coming of Christ. But the coming of Jesus brought men who might suspect that the law and the prophets were not Divine to the plain avowal that they were written with help from heaven. And the careful and attentive reader of the words of the prophets, if his zeal be kindled ever so little by reading them, will through his own experience be persuaded that what we believe to be the words of God |7 are not human compositions. And the light also of the law of Moses, though it had been hidden by a veil, shone forth when Jesus came;19 for the veil was taken away and the good things foreshadowed in the Scriptures were gradually revealed.

7. It would be a big undertaking to now recount the most ancient prophecies, so that in amazement at their Divine character, the doubter may with full conviction and concentrated purpose submit himself with all his soul to the words of God. If, however, the superhuman element in the Scriptures does not everywhere appear to strike the uninstructed, no wonder; for in the working of the Divine Providence throughout the whole World some things are very clearly seen to be providential, while others are so hidden as to seem to leave room for doubt as to whether God with His ineffable skill and power does order the universe. For the evidence of design in Providence is not so clear in things of earth as it is in the sun and moon and stars; and it is not so clear in the changes and chances of human affairs as it is in the souls and bodies of animals, certainly when the why and wherefore of their instincts, impressions, natures, and bodily structure have been ascertained by experts in these branches of knowledge. But as the doctrine of Providence is not destroyed by our ignorance in some particulars, when we have once for all admitted it, so neither is the Divine character of Scripture upon the whole impaired, because our weakness cannot in each phrase approach the hidden glory of the truths concealed in poor and contemptible language. For we have a treasure in earthly vessels,20 that the exceeding greatness of the power of God may shine forth, and may not be thought to come from us men. For if the hackneyed methods of demonstration common among men, which we find on our library shelves,21 had prevailed over men, our faith would with good reason have been supposed to stand |8 in the wisdom of men, and not in the power of God;22 but as things are, if a man will lift up his eyes, it will be evident that the Word and the preaching have influenced the multitude not by persuasive words of wisdom, but by demonstration of the Spirit and of power. Wherefore, seeing that a heavenly power, or a power even from, above the heavens, urges us to worship the Creator only, let us, leaving the word of the beginning of Christ,23 that is, leaving elementary instruction, endeavour to press on unto perfection, that the wisdom spoken to the perfect may be spoken also to us.24 For He Who has this wisdom promises to speak it among the perfect, a wisdom other than the wisdom of this world and the wisdom of the ruler of this world, which is brought to nought. And this wisdom shall be plainly stamped on us, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, by the Scriptures of the prophets 25 and the appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,26 to Whom be the glory for ever. Amen.

8. Now that we have, as it were, just glanced at the inspiration of the Divine Scriptures, we must pass on to the way to read and understand them; for very many mistakes have been made, because the right method of examining the holy texts has not been discovered by the greater number of readers. Hardhearted and unlearned readers belonging to the Circumcision have not believed on our Saviour, because it is their habit to follow the bare letter of the prophecies concerning Him, and they do not see Him with their bodily eyes proclaiming liberty to the captives,27 nor building what they think the true city of God,28 nor cutting off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem,29 nor eating butter and honey, and before He knoweth or preferreth evil choosing the good.30 They still suppose that prophecy declares that the |9 four-footed animal, the wolf, shall fe
ed with the lamb, and the leopard lie down with the kid; and the calf, and the bull, and the lion feed together, and that a little child shall lead them; and that the cow and the bear shall be pastured together, their young ones being reared together, and that the lion shall eat straw like the ox.31 Because they saw nothing like this when He Whom we believe to be Christ dwelt on the earth, they did not receive Jesus, but crucified Him, maintaining that He had no right to call Himself Christ. And heretics when they read the words, “A fire is kindled in mine anger”;32 and, “I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and fourth generation”;33 and, “It repenteth me that I have anointed Saul to be king”;34 and, “I am God that maketh peace and create evil”;35 and in another place, “Shall evil befall a city, and the Lord hath not done it”;36 or again, “Evil is come down from the Lord unto the gates of Jerusalem”;37 and, “An evil spirit from the Lord plagued Saul”;38 and countless similar passages: when they read these, I say, they will not venture to deny the Divine origin of the Scriptures, but believing them to have come from the Demiurge,39 Whom the Jews worship, and holding that the Demiurge is imperfect and lacking in goodness, they suppose our Saviour while He dwelt on earth to have proclaimed a more perfect God, Whom, from different motives, they affirm not to be the Demiurge. And having thus once for all revolted from the Demiurge, Who is the only God uncreate, they have given themselves up to vain imaginations, inventing for themselves various theories, so as to account for the origin of things that are seen, and for the origin of others not seen, and all this is the offspring of their own fancy. And yet, as a matter of fact, the less sophisticated of those who in their self-confidence have left the Church |10 allow no God greater than the Demiurge, and so far they are right; but their conception of Him is such as would discredit an extremely cruel and unjust man.

9. Now the only reason why all these of whom I have spoken entertain false and impious opinions, or ignorant views respecting God, appears to be that the Scripture on the spiritual side is not understood, but is taken in the bare literal sense. For the sake, therefore, of those readers who are persuaded that the sacred books are not human compositions, but that they were written and have come to us by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, according to the will of the Father of All through Jesus Christ, we must point out what appear to be the right methods, while we keep to the rule of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ in succession to the Apostles. And that there are certain mystic dispensations revealed through the Divine Scriptures has been believed by all who have studied the Word, even the simplest readers; but what these dispensations are, fair-minded and modest men confess they do not know. Anyway, supposing a man to be perplexed about the intercourse of Lot with his daughters,40 or the two wives of Abraham,41 or Jacob's marrying two sisters, and the handmaidens who had children by him,42 these readers will say that here we have mysteries which we do not understand. But suppose the passage to be about the building of the tabernacle,43 feeling sure that the narrative is typical, they will endeavour to give each detail, as best they can, a spiritual meaning. So far as their conviction goes that the tabernacle is a type of something, they are not far wrong; but when on the strength of this they attempt in a way worthy of Scripture to define the particular thing of which the tabernacle is a type, they sometimes fail. And every ordinary story of marriage, or childbearing, or war, or any historical occurrences which would generally be |11 regarded as such, they pronounce to be typical. But when they come to particulars, it sometimes happens, partly because they are not thoroughly familiar with the subject, partly because they are too precipitate, partly because, even if a man is well trained and deliberate, the things are extremely difficult to investigate, that certain points are not quite cleared up.

10. And why speak of the prophecies, which we ail know to be full of enigmas and dark sayings? And, coming to the Gospels, if we are to find their exact sense, inasmuch as that sense is the mind of Christ, there is need of the grace given to him who said, “We have the mind of Christ, that we may know the things freely given to us by God; which things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth.” 44 And who, again, can read the things revealed to John without astonishment at the ineffable mysteries therein concealed, mysteries, plainly enough, though a man does not understand what is written? As for the letters of the Apostles, could any critic find them clear and easily intelligible, seeing they contain countless things of the greatest importance and thronging thoughts, seen as through a lattice,45 and by no means easy of access? Wherefore, seeing that this is the case, and that vast numbers go wrong, it is somewhat dangerous when we read to lightly declare that one understands what requires that key of knowledge which was with the lawyers. And I wish they who will not allow that men had the truth before Christ came would tell us what our Lord Jesus Christ means by saying that the key of knowledge was in the keeping of the lawyers, for, according to our opponents, the lawyers had no books containing the secrets of knowledge, and complete mysteries. The precise words are these: “Woe unto you lawyers! for ye took away |12 the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.” 46

11. The right way, then, to read the Scriptures and extract their meaning, so far as we have been able to discover from examining the oracles themselves, appears to be as follows:—-Solomon in the Proverbs gives a rule respecting the Divine doctrines of Scripture to this effect: “Do thou thrice record them with counsel and knowledge that thou mayest answer with words of truth to those who try thee with hard questions.” 47 A man ought then in three ways to record in his own soul the purposes of the Holy Scriptures; that the simple may be edified by, as it were, the flesh of Scripture (for thus we designate the primary sense), the more advanced by its soul, and the perfect by the spiritual law, which has a shadow of the good things to come. For the perfect man resembles those of whom the Apostle speaks: “Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect; yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, which are coming to nought: but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory,48 from the spiritual law which hath a shadow of the good things to come.49 As man consists of body, soul, and spirit, so too does Scripture which has been granted by God for the salvation of men. And thus we explain that passage in The Shepherd,—-a book which some treat with contempt, —-in which Hermas is commanded to write two books, and then read to the elders of the Church what he has learned from the Spirit.50 “Thou shalt write two books, and give one to Clement and one to Grapte. And Grapte shall admonish the widows and orphans, Clement shall send to the cities abroad, and thou shalt read to the elders of the Church.” Grapte, who admonishes the widows and orphans, is the bare letter of Scripture; it admonishes those readers whose souls are in the stage of childhood, and who cannot |13 yet call God their Father, and are therefore styled “orphans”; it moreover admonishes souls,51 no longer consorting with the unlawful bridegroom, but remaining in a widowed state because not yet worthy of the true Bridegroom. Clement, the reader who has got beyond the letter, is said to send what is said to the cities abroad, that is to say, the souls which have escaped from the bodily desires and lower aims. And next the writing is forsaken, and the disciple him
self of the Spirit is bidden “read” to the wise and hoary-headed elders of the whole Church of God with the living voice.

12. But inasmuch as some Scriptures have not the “corporeal,” 52 as we shall presently show, in such cases we must seek only the “soul” and the “spirit.” For instance, this may explain why the six waterpots of stone said to be set after the Jews' manner of purifying, as we read in the Gospel according to John,53 contain two or three firkins apiece: the Word darkly hinting at those who were inwardly Jews, of whom the Apostle speaks 54—-that these, forsooth, are cleansed through the word of Scripture, that Word sometimes containing two firkins, that is, if we may so say, the “soul” and “spirit” of the Word: sometimes three; for some Scriptures have besides these two also the “corporeal” part with its power of edification. As for the number, the six waterpots may reasonably refer to those who are being purified in the world, which was made in six days, six being a perfect number.55

13. That we may profit by the primary sense of Scripture, even if we go no further, is evident from the multitudes of true and simple-minded believers. Let us, however, take what Paul says in the first Epistle to the |14 Corinthians as an example of the higher “soul” interpretation. “It is written,” he says, “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.” 56 Then, going on to explain this law, he adds, “Is it for the oxen that God careth, or saith he it altogether for our sake? Yea, for our sake it was written: because he that ploweth ought to plow in hope, and he that thresheth, to thresh in hope of partaking.” And, indeed, very many passages so interpreted as to suit the great body of believers, and edifying for those who have no ear for better things, have more or less the same stamp. But spiritual interpretation is for one who is able to show the nature of the heavenly things,57 of which the Jews after the flesh served the copy and shadow, and what the good things to come are of which the law is a shadow. And in general, according to the apostolic command, we must everywhere seek wisdom in a mystery, “even the wisdom which hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the world unto the glory of the righteous; which none of the rulers of this world knoweth.” 58 The same Apostle, referring to certain incidents in Exodus and Numbers, somewhere says, “These things happened unto them by way of figure: and they were written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages are come”;59 and he hints at the things of which they were figures, saying, “For they drank of a spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.” 60 And in the sketch of the tabernacle which he gives in another epistle he quotes the words, “Thou shalt make all things according to the pattern which was shewed thee in the Mount.” 61 Again, in the Epistle to the Galatians, as it were reproaching those who think they read the law though they do not understand it, and giving his judgment that as many as think there are no allegories in what is written, do not understand, he goes on to say, “Tell me ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 62 |15 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman. Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh, but the son by the freewoman is born through promise. Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants,” and so on. We must carefully note exactly what he says: “Ye that desire to be under the law”: not “Ye that are under the law”; and, “Do you not hear the law?”: the hearing in his judgment being the understanding and knowing. And also in the Epistle to the Colossians, where he epitomises the meaning of the whole giving of the law, he says, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come.” 63 Further, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, arguing concerning those of the Circumcision, he writes thus: “Who serve that which is a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.” 64 This will probably suffice to remove all doubts respecting the five books, called the Books of Moses, from the minds of those who really believe the Apostle to be a Divine 65 man; but they may wish to learn whether the rest of the history is also figurative. Now we must carefully note that the passage in Romans from the third Book of Kings, “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal,” 66 was taken by Paul as applying to the Israelites according to the election,67 for that not only have the Gentiles benefited by the coming of Christ, but also some of the holy 68 race.

14. This being so, we must outline what seems to us the peculiarities involved in understanding the Scriptures. And what we have to show first is that the aim of the Spirit, Who, by the providence of God through the Word, Who in the beginning was with God, enlightens the ministers of the truth, the Prophets and Apostles, was chiefly directed to the unspeakable mysteries connected |16 with men,—-and by men I mean embodied souls, so that any one who is capable of instruction, if he will search the Scriptures, and will earnestly endeavour to fathom their depths, may be a partaker in all the decrees of His counsel. And as regards souls, inasmuch as without the rich and wise truth concerning God they cannot possibly reach perfection, things relating to God and to His only-begotten Son must be placed in the front rank, viz. His nature, in what sense He is Son of God, and for what reasons He humbled Himself and took upon Him our flesh and perfect manhood; further, how He works, for whom, and under what conditions. And, of necessity, if we want to know about kindred beings, and the other rational creatures, both those more Divine than humankind and those also who have fallen from bliss, and the causes of their fall, this should be introduced into Divine revelation; and, similarly, if we have to discuss the differences in souls, and how the differences have arisen; or inquire what we mean when we talk of the “world,” and ask how it came into existence. We have to learn, moreover, the origin of the great and terrible wickedness on earth, and whether it is found only on earth, or elsewhere as well.

15. Now, while the Spirit Who illumines the souls of the holy ministers of the truth had these and similar purposes in view, it was, secondly, His aim, for the sake of those who cannot bear the labour of investigating such mysteries, to conceal the foregoing doctrines in narrative form conveying an account of the visible works of creation, and of man's creation, and of the descendants of the first man until they become numerous; and in other histories which relate the doings of righteous men, and the sins which they occasionally committed inasmuch as they were men, as also the wicked, licentious, overbearing behaviour of lawless and godless men. And, very strange though it may seem, by the history of wars and victors and vanquished, some of the ineffable mysteries are declared to those who have the ability to investigate these matters. And, still more marvellous, through the written law, the |17 laws of the Truth are foretold; and all these subjects are linked together by the Divine wisdom with a power truly worthy of the wisdom of God. For it was the Spirit's purpose to make even the vesture of things spiritual, I mean the “corporeal” part of the Scriptures, many ways not unprofitable, but capable of benefiting the majority of readers according to their capacity.

16. If the use of the Law had been everywhere made perfectly clear, and strict historical sequence had been preserved, we should not have believed that the Scriptures could be understood in any other than the obvious sense.69 The Word of God therefore arranged for certain stumbling-blocks and offences and impossibilities to be embedded in the Law and the historical portion, so that we may not be drawn hither and thither by the mere attractivenes
s of the style, and thus either forsake the doctrinal part because we receive no instruction worthy of God, or cleave to the letter and learn nothing more Divine. And this we ought to know, that the chief purpose being to show the spiritual connection both in past occurrences and in things to be done, wherever the Word found historical events capable of adaptation to these mystic truths, He made use of them, but concealed the deeper sense from the many; but where in setting forth the sequence of things spiritual there was no actual event related for the sake of the more mystic meaning, Scripture interweaves the imaginative with the historical, sometimes introducing what is utterly impossible, sometimes what is possible but never occurred. Sometimes it is only a few words, not literally true, which have been inserted; sometimes the insertions are of greater length. And we must this way understand even the giving of the Law, for therein we may frequently discover the immediate use, adapted to the times when the Law was given; sometimes, however, no good reason appears. And elsewhere we have even impossible commands, for readers of greater ability and those who have more of the spirit of inquiry; so that, applying themselves |18 to the labour of investigating the things written, they may have a fitting conviction of the necessity of looking therein for a meaning worthy of God. And not only did the Spirit thus deal with the Scriptures before the coming of Christ, but, inasmuch as He is the same Spirit, and proceedeth from the One God, He has done the same with the Gospels and the writings of the Apostles; for not even they are purely historical, incidents which never occurred being interwoven in the “corporeal” sense; nor in the Law and the Commandments does the Spirit make the reasonableness altogether clear.

17. Anyway, will any man of sense suppose that there was a first day, and a second, and a third, evening and morning, without sun and moon and stars? 70 and the first, as it were, even without a heaven? And who is so silly as to imagine that God, like a husbandman, planted a garden in Eden eastward, and put in it a tree of life,71 which could be seen and felt, so that whoever tasted of the fruit with his bodily teeth received the gift of life, and further that any one as he masticated the fruit of this tree partook of good and evil? And if God is also said to walk in the garden in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under the tree,72 I do not suppose that any one will doubt that these passages by means of seeming history, though the incidents never occurred, figuratively reveal certain mysteries. Moreover, Cain's comning out from the presence of God,73 if we give heed, is a distinct inducement to inquire what is meant by “the presence of God,” and by a man's “coming out from” it. Why say more? They who are not quite blind can collect countless similar instances of things recorded as actual occurrences, though not literally true. Why, even the Gospels abound in incidents of the same kind. We read of the Devil taking Jesus into a lofty mountain, that from thence he might shew Him the kingdoms of the whole world and their |19 glory.74 Who but a careless reader of these things would not condemn the supposition that with the bodily eye, which required a lofty height if the parts down below at the foot were to be seen, Jesus beheld the kingdoms of Persia, Scythia, India, and Parthia, and the glory of their rulers among men? And, similarly, the careful student may observe countless other instances in the Gospels, and may thus be convinced that with the historical events, literally true, different ones are interwoven which never occurred.

18. And if we come also to the Mosaic code, many of the laws, so far as regards their bare observance, seem unreasonable, and others impossible. The prohibition of kites,75 for instance, as food is unreasonable, for no one in the direst famines would be driven to this creature. Children eight days old if not circumcised are ordered to be cut off from their people. If an express enactment respecting those children was indispensable, it is their fathers who should be ordered to be put to death; whereas the Scripture says, “Every uncircumcised male, who shall not be circumcised on the eighth day, shall be cut off from his people.” 76 If you wish to see some impossible enactments, let us consider that the goat-stag is a fabulous creature. And yet Moses commands us to offer it as a clean animal;77 on the other hand, there is no instance of the griffin having been tamed by man, but the lawgiver, nevertheless, forbids it to be eaten. If we closely examine the famous ordinance of the Sabbath, “Ye shall sit every man in his house: let no man go out of his place on the seventh day,”78 we shall see that it cannot be literally kept; for no living creature can sit the whole day without stirring from his seat. And therefore in some cases they of the Circumcision, and as many as desire no more light than that of the mere letter, do not go to the root of things, and, for example, search for the meaning of what is said about the goat-stag, the griffin, and the kite; while |20 in other cases they sophistically trifle with the words, and confront you with frigid traditions; as regards the Sabbath, for instance, they maintain that every man's “place” is 2000 cubits. Others, among them Dositheus the Samaritan, condemning such an interpretation, think the person is to remain until the evening in the posture in which he was found on the Sabbath day. Nor can the command to carry no burden on the Sabbath be observed; 79 and the Jewish teachers have accordingly gone very great lengths, pretending that a sandal of one kind is a “burden,” but not a sandal of another kind, the one being nailed, the other without nails; and, the same way, what is carried upon one shoulder is a “burden,” but by no means what is carried upon both.

19. If we similarly investigate the Gospels, what could be more unreasonable than the command which simple readers think the Saviour gave to His Apostles, “Salute no man by the way.” 80 Again, what is said about the smiting on the right cheek is incredible;81 for when a man strikes, if he acts naturally, he strikes the left cheek with his right hand. And we cannot take literally the passage in the Gospel in which the right eye is said to cause one to stumble.82 For even granting the possibility of sight making any one to stumble, why, when the two eyes see, should we put the blame on the right eye. Would any man when he condemns himself for looking on a woman to lust after her, put the blame on the right eye only, and cast it from him? Again, the Apostle lays down the law thus: “Was any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised?” 83 Any one may see that the Apostle has something in view other than the literal context; for, in the first place, such an insertion when he is giving precepts concerning marriage and purity must appear unmeaning. And, in the second place, who will say that, in order to escape from the disgrace mostly connected with circumcision, a man |21 does wrong in endeavouring, if he can, to become un-circumcised.

20. We have said all this for the sake of showing that the aim of the Divine power which gives us the sacred Scriptures, is not to select such things only as are presented in a literal sense, for sometimes the things selected taken literally are not true, but are even unreasonable and impossible; and further, that certain things are woven into the web of actual history and of the Law, which in its literal sense has its uses. But that no one may suppose us to make a sweeping statement and maintain that no history is real,84 because some is unreal; and that no part of the Law is to be literally observed, because a particular enactment in its wording happens to be unreasonable or impossible; or that what is recorded of the Saviour is true only in a spiritual sense; or that we are not to keep any law or commandments of His: that we may not incur such an imputation, we must add that we are quite convinced o
f the historical truth of certain passages; for instance, that Abraham was buried in the double cave in Hebron,85 as also Isaac and Jacob, and one wife of each of these; and that Sichem was given to Joseph for his portion,86 and that Jerusalem is the capital of Judea, wherein God's temple was built by Solomon, and countless other statements. For those things which are true historically are many more than those connected with them which contain merely a spiritual sense. Again, take the commandment, “Honour thy father and thy mother that it may be well with thee.” 87 Would not any one allow its usefulness apart from any anagogical 88 interpretation, and support |22 its observance, seeing that even the Apostle Paul uses the express words? And what are we to say about the commands, “Thou shalt not kill,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” 89 Further, there are commands in the Gospel about which there is no doubt as to whether they are to be literally observed or not; for instance, that which says, “But I say to you, whosoever shall be angry with his brother,” 90 and so on; and, “But I say to you, Swear not at all.” 91 And we must keep to the letter of the Apostle's words, “Admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be long-suffering towards all”;92 though among more eager students it is possible to treasure every detail as the deep wisdom of God, without rejecting the literal meaning of the command.

21. Still, there are places where the careful reader will be distracted because he cannot without much labour decide whether he is dealing with history in the ordinary sense, or not, and whether a given commandment is to be literally observed, or not. The reader must therefore, following the Saviour's injunction to search the Scriptures,93 carefully examine where the literal meaning is true, and where it cannot possibly be so; and he must, to the best of his ability, by comparing parallel passages scattered up and down Scripture, trace out the prevalent sense of what is literally impossible. Since, then, as will be clear to readers, the literal connection is impossible, while the main connection is not impossible but even true, we must strive to grasp the general sense which intelligibly connects things literally impossible with such things as are not only not impossible, but are historically true, and capable of allegorical |23 interpretation, no less than those which never literally occurred. For, regarding the whole of Divine Scripture, we hold that every portion has the spiritual meaning, but not every portion the “corporeal”; for the “corporeal” meaning is often proved to be impossible. The cautious reader must therefore very carefully bear in mind that the Divine books are Divine writings, and that there appears to be a peculiar way of understanding them, which I will now describe.

22. The inspired words relate that God chose out a certain nation upon earth, which they call by several names. The whole nation is called Israel, and also Jacob. But after the division in the time of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, the ten tribes under him were called Israel, and the other two with the tribe of Levi, governed by kings of the seed of David, were known as Judah. And the whole country inhabited by the nation, and given to them by God, is called Judea; and of this Jerusalem was the metropolis, or mother city, that is to say, of numerous cities, the names of which dispersed in many parts of Scripture are included in one list in the Book of Joshua the son of Nun. This being so, the Apostle, raising our thoughts higher, somewhere says, “Behold Israel after the flesh,”94 implying that there is an Israel after the Spirit. And elsewhere he says, “It is not the children of the flesh that are children of God: nor are they all Israel which are of Israel.95 Nor is he a Jew which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter.” 96 For if the judgment of the Jew depends on the inward state, we must understand that as there is a bodily race of Jews, so there is a race of those who are Jews inwardly, and that there are secret reasons for souls having this noble lineage. There are, moreover, many prophecies concerning Israel and Judah which relate the things that should befall them. Now, let me ask, |24 do not such great prophecies written on their behalf, inasmuch as in the literal sense they are trivial and exhibit none of the lofty dignity of a promise made by God, require a mystical interpretation? And if the promises are spiritual, though expressed by means of things sensible, they also to whom the promises are given are not “corporeal.”

23. And, not to spend more time over the argument concerning the Jew that is one inwardly and the Israelite in the inner man, enough having been said for any but unintelligent readers, we return to our subject, and say. that Jacob was the father of the twelve patriarchs, they the progenitors of the rulers of the people, and these again the ancestors of the rest of Israel. So, then, the “corporeal” Israelites are traced up to the rulers of the people, and the rulers to the patriarchs, and the patriarchs to Jacob and those still farther back; but as for the spiritual Israelites, of whom the “corporeal” were the type, do they not spring from the “hundreds,” the “hundreds” from the tribes, and the tribes from one man who had no such “corporeal” descent, but the better, he too being born of Isaac, and he of Abraham, all going back to Adam, who, as the Apostle says, is Christ? For all families in their relation to the God of All had their beginning lower down in Christ, Who being next to the God and Father of All, is thus the Father of every soul as Adam is the father of all men. And if Eve has been made by Paul to represent the Church, it is no wonder that Cain, who was born of Eve, and all after him who trace their descent from Eve, should be types of the Church, inasmuch as in a special sense they sprang from the Church.

24. If we are impressed by what has been said about Israel and the tribes and the hundreds, when the Saviour tells us that He was not sent save unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel,97 we do not take the words in the same sense as the Ebionites with their poverty of |25 understanding (their poverty of intellect gives them their name, for “Ebion” is the Hebrew for “poor “), and suppose that Christ came chiefly to Israel after the flesh; for “it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God.” 98 Again, the Apostle gives similar teaching concerning Jerusalem when he tells us that “the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is our mother.” 99 And in another epistle he says, “But ye are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven.” 100 If, then, Israel is a race of souls, and there is a city, Jerusalem in heaven, it follows that the cities of Israel, and, consequently, all Judea, have for their metropolis the heavenly Jerusalem. Accordingly, whatever is foretold or said respecting Jerusalem, if we listen to God as God, and hear Him speaking from the depths of His wisdom,101 we must understand that the Scriptures refer to the heavenly city, and the whole country containing the cities of the holy land. It may be that these are the cities to which the Saviour leads us 102 up when He gives the command of ten or five cities to those who satisfactorily dealt with the pounds.

25. If, then, the prophecies respecting Judea and Jerusalem, and Israel and Judah and Jacob, inasmuch as we do not take them in the fleshly sense, suggest some such mysteries as the foregoing, it should follow that the prophecies concerning Egypt and the Egyptians, Babylon and the Babylonians, Tyre and the Tyriaus, Sidon and the Sidonians, or any other nations, are not prophecies merely of
the corporeal Egyptians,103 Babylonians, Tyrians, and Sidonians. For if there are “spiritual” Israelites, it follows that there are “spiritual” Egyptians and Babylonians. What the Prophet Ezekiel says cannot at all be made to |26 suit Pharaoh, King of Egypt, a past or future human ruler of the country, as will be evident to close observers. Similarly, what is said about the ruler of Tyre cannot be understood of some future human ruler of Tyre. And the many passages relating to Nabuchadnosor, particularly in Isaiah, how can we possibly take them to refer to the man of that name? For the man Nabuchadnosor did not fall from heaven,104 nor was he Lucifer, nor did he rise early on the earth. And the sayings in Ezekiel concerning Egypt, to the effect that it would be desolate for forty years,105 so that the foot of man should not be found there, and that war should be so fiercely waged at some time or other that throughout the whole land blood should reach to the knees, what sensible person will understand them of Egypt that borders on the Ethiopians with their sunburnt bodies?

26. Perhaps, as they who leave the earth when they die the death of all men are dealt with in such a way that according to the deeds done in the body, if judged worthy of the place called Hades, they are assigned to different places in proportion to their sins: so they, if I may so speak, who die there, descend to this earthly Hades, being judged worthy of the different habitations, better or worse, throughout the world, and to have parents of different nationalities; so that an Israelite may perhaps fall among Scythians, and an Egyptian descend into Judea. But the Saviour came to gather together the lost sheep of the house of Israel;106 and as many of Israel did not submit to His teaching, the Gentiles also are being called.

27. These mysteries are, as we think, concealed in the histories. For “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found, and hid; and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”107 Let us consider then whether the obvious in Scripture, its superficial and easy meaning, is |27 not like a field covered with all sorts of growths; while the secret things, not seen by all, but as it were buried beneath the things that are seen, are the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge:108 which the Spirit by the mouth of Esaias calls “dark,” “invisible,” “concealed.” They must be found out, though God alone can break in pieces the gates of brass which hide them, and shatter the iron bars upon the doors; so that all the statements in Genesis concerning different real varieties of souls, and as it were seeds of souls, more or less remote from Israel, may be discovered; as also what is meant by the seventy souls going down into Egypt,109 that there they may become as the stars of heaven for multitude. But since not all their descendants are the light of the world,110 for “they are not all Israel that are of Israel,” 111 the seventy become even as it were sand by the sea shore that cannot be numbered.

From the 39th Homily on Jeremiah.

28. And as all the gifts of God are vastly greater than the mortal substance, so also the true word of wisdom concerning all these, being with God Who caused all these things to be written, for the Father of the Word so willed, would be found in the soul which with all earnestness and with full consent has been thoroughly purified from human weakness in the apprehension of that wisdom. But if a man rashly enters on the subject, and is not aware of the mystery of the wisdom of God and of the Word Who was in the beginning with God and was Himself God, and that if we are to seek and find these things we must follow the instructions of the Word Who was also God, and conform to His wisdom, he must of necessity fall into fables and frivolous conceits and inventions of his own, for he exposes himself to danger for his impiety. We must therefore remember the admonition in Ecclesiastes to such readers: “Let not thine heart |28 be hasty to utter anything before God; for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.” 112 And it is fitting to believe that not a single tittle of the sacred Scriptures is without something of the wisdom of God; for He Who gave me a mere man the command, “Thou shalt not appear before me empty,” 113 how much more will He not speak anything “empty.” When the Prophets speak, it is after receiving of His fulness; 114 and so everything breathes what comes of His fulness; and there is nothing in Prophecy, or Law, or Gospel, or Apostle, which is not of His fulness. And just because it is of His fulness, it breathes His fulness to those who have eyes to see the things of that fulness, and ears to hear the things of that fulness, and a faculty to perceive the sweet odour of the things of that fulness. But if in reading the Scripture thou shouldest sometime stumble at a meaning which is a fair stone of stumbling and rock of offence,115 blame thyself. Do not despair of finding meanings in the stone of stumbling and rock of offence, so that the saying may be fulfilled, “He that believeth shall not be ashamed.” 116 First believe, and thou shalt find beneath what is counted a stumbling-block much gain in godliness.

From the Commentary on the 50th Psalm, in the allegorical treatment of the early portion of the history of Uriah.

29. If the partly allegorical treatment of the history appears to any one forced, and therefore not to relieve the difficulties, we have obviously been speaking to no purpose, and we must look for some other suitable interpretation; unless, perchance, some reader by further labour may discover a way of putting everything right, explaining 117 both the murder of the man and his evident kindliness, inasmuch as he was unwilling to go to his house and rest, when the people were in camp and |29 struggling against the enemy. But I do not know how they who shun the allegorical interpretation, and think the narrative was written for its own sake, will reconcile themselves to the will of the Holy Spirit, Who thought such things deserving of record as justify the charge not only of licentiousness, but also of savagery and inhumanity being brought against David; for he dared to commit a crime against Uriah which would be extraordinary even in the case of a man of average morality. I should, however, say that as the judgments of God are great and cannot be expressed,118 and seem to be causes of the erring of unnurtured souls, so also His Scriptures are great and full of meanings, secret, spiritual, and hard to understand. They, too, cannot be expressed, and appear to cause the unnurtured souls of heretics to err by inconsiderately and rashly accusing God on account of the Scriptures which they do not understand, and by therefore falling into the error of inventing another God. The safe course is to wait for the interpretation of an explainer of the Word, and of the wisdom hidden in a mystery,119 which none of the rulers of this world knoweth, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,120 but now is manifested to the Apostles and those like them, both through the writings of the Prophets, and by the appearing to them of our Saviour the Word Who in the beginning was with God.121

From the 5th Homily on Leviticus, near the beginning.

there is more ,there was a other called Origene and was a pupill of Plotinus,very different man.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2010,12:04)

You wrote: Quote Jesus said baptize in the “Name” singular of the three. I agree as all speak and act with the authority of God. All fullness of the deity is in Jesus.

Kerwin

Thank you!

So you admit there is “Three” that speak and act”. Which means that they are One, right?

So there is a “Trinity“. The question is if you see disparity in the intrinsic nature of the three.  Do you? If so what do you base that belief on? You agreed that they share the same “Name” or nature, right? What nature is that? Is it not what makes God, God?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Pierre

Do you think anybody is gonna read the “LOOOONG” quotes like that. You are just cluttering the thread.

Why don't you pick out of the quotes what is relevant to the subject and then leave a link so if others want to read it all they can.

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,12:53)

Pierre Do you think anybody is gonna read the “LOOOONG” quotes like that. You are just cluttering the thread. Why don't you pick out of the quotes what is relevant to the subject and then leave a link so if others want to read it all they can. WJ

WJ

if someone invite you for lunch would you pick out a bean or a pea or one slice of carrot,and so miss the vision of the display plate,and also in that way alter the mixed taste of the mixed veggies,with the mead not forgetting the drink.

no, WJ if you do not want to read it this would be your lost.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,14:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,12:53) Pierre Do you think anybody is gonna read the “LOOOONG” quotes like that. You are just cluttering the thread. Why don't you pick out of the quotes what is relevant to the subject and then leave a link so if others want to read it all they can. WJ WJ if someone invite you for lunch would you pick out a bean or a pea or one slice of carrot,and so miss the vision of the display  plate,and also in that way  alter the mixed taste of the mixed veggies,with the mead not forgetting the drink. no, WJ if you do not want to read it this would be your lost. Pierre

Pierre

Did you read the whole thing? If someone invites you for dinner would you give them the grocery store?

If you quote a passage of scripture, must you quote the whole Bible?

I have read it and there is “very little” that relates to “Origen” and the topic in this thread.

I will quote some of Origen's own words that supports the “Trinity”…

14. This being so, we must outline what seems to us the peculiarities involved in understanding the Scriptures. And what we have to show first is that “the aim of the Spirit, Who, by the providence of God through the Word, Who in the beginning was with God, enlightens the ministers of the truth, the Prophets and Apostles,…

Here you see that he believes in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as being together in the beginning.

…And not only did “the Spirit thus deal with the Scriptures before the coming of Christ, but, inasmuch as He is the same Spirit, and proceedeth from the One God“, He has done the same with the Gospels and the writings of the Apostles; for not even they are purely historical, incidents which never occurred being interwoven in the “corporeal” sense; nor in the Law and the Commandments does the Spirit make the reasonableness altogether clear.

Here we see Origen again speaks of the three.

28. And as all the gifts of God are vastly greater than the mortal substance, so also the true word of wisdom concerning all these, being with God Who caused all these things to be written, “for the Father of the Word so willed“, would be found in the soul which with all earnestness and with full consent has been thoroughly purified from human weakness in the apprehension of that wisdom. “But if a man rashly enters on the subject, and is not aware of the mystery of the wisdom of God and of the Word Who was in the beginning with God and was Himself God, and that if we are to seek and find these things we must follow the instructions of the Word Who was also God“, and conform to His wisdom, he must of necessity fall into fables and frivolous conceits and inventions of his own, for he exposes himself to danger for his impiety.

Did you see these quotes?

It looks like to me he believed in the “Trinity”. Athanasius believed that he was misunderstood and misquoted.

WJ

[terraricca]

WJ

in the words that you quote Origene does not preach or recognize the trinity ,what he say is what is written in scriptures,what i do not deny,

our discussion run s in 3=1 and i say 3=3 like 1+1+1=3,so as Origene is a early father and also as been shun from most christian churches ,this man surpasses in live many of the others early so called fathers.

God ,in the beginning create the son (the Word) then the spirit the holy one of God is not a being, but a will and power
of God,understand that all what God s want and say and do is holy.

so God uses his son to create all other things whatever it may be,of cause he is using the power of his own spirit what is holy(God is spirit)

Creation is not something that came about like by magic,God create the angels first and has used them to accomplish whatever to do as workers of God,

what you think it mean to obey God s will ,it is being part of his will (works)all is of God at the end,but it is not the end of creation and works ,because God says “I do all thing anew” men is not able to phantom what God intend is, for us .

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,16:47)

WJ in the words that you quote Origene does not preach or recognize the trinity ,what he say is what is written in scriptures,what i do not deny,

So then you agree with his words…

the Word Who was in the beginning with God and **was Himself God**, and that if we are to seek and find these things we must follow the instructions of **the Word Who was also God**”,

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,16:47)

our discussion run s in 3=1 and i say 3=3  like 1+1+1=3,so as Origene is a early father and also as been shun from most christian churches ,this man surpasses in live many of the others early so called fathers.

So you don't believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “One”?

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,16:47)

God ,in the beginning create the son (the Word) then the spirit the holy one of God is not a being, but a will and power of God,understand that all what God s want and say and do is holy.

Where is the scripture that says “God created (the word)?

Origen said..
“…the Word Who was in the beginning with God and **was Himself God**…””

Did God create another God? If he was there in the beginning of all things then that means he is from eternity, right?

Was the Father ever without the Word?

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Is there any solid evidence regarding Matthew 28:19? Sorry I have read this topic.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,07:38)

Here we see Origen again speaks of the three. 28. And as all the gifts of God are vastly greater than the mortal substance, so also the true word of wisdom concerning all these, being with God Who caused all these things to be written, “for the Father of the Word so willed”, would be found in the soul which with all earnestness and with full consent has been thoroughly purified from human weakness in the apprehension of that wisdom. “But if a man rashly enters on the subject, and is not aware of the mystery of the wisdom of God and of the Word Who was in the beginning with God and was Himself God, and that if we are to seek and find these things we must follow the instructions of the Word Who was also God”, and conform to His wisdom, he must of necessity fall into fables and frivolous conceits and inventions of his own, for he exposes himself to danger for his impiety.

The Logos is an attribute of God just as wisdom is.  God begat wisdom and created all things through Wisdom who was called the craftsman at his side. Now compare that to the Logos that was with God.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”  
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30

Think about the difference between an attribute and a person. The attribute is part of God, and a person is another being that perhaps has the same attribute.

Someone said it like this:

For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,05:50)

So you admit there is “Three” that speak and act”. Which means that they are One, right?

Jesus said that we can be one with each other in the same way that he is one with God and he said we all can be one with God in the same way. How? By unity in the Spirit.

Jesus taught this instead of the Trinity.

So people it would be wise to listen to Jesus and not listen to competing doctrines from man.

Jesus is one with God. We can be one with God. And Jesus and us, are not God. Yet we are or can be one with God. It is simple to understand. No mystery here. It was spelled out nice and easy so anyone could understand it.

The mystery of the Trinity is that it is not true and is not possible, and is not logical. That is why it is a mystery. It is really just a whole lot of waffle. You can't fool us. Or at least you can't fool all people all of the time.

[terraricca]

WJ

last question yes, at one time or at one point The Word was not there before the point of the beginning.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him (the Word =Jesus) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
but not God he is the one who give this to Jesus. because at the end Jesus turn all things under God even himself.

Isa 62:2 The nations will see your righteousness,
and all kings your glory;
you will be called by a new name
that the mouth of the LORD will bestow.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

so the name Jesus and the word may change to a new name………….

Rev 5:12 In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

NOW ANSWERING TO YOUR FIRST QUESTION;;YES
TO YOUR SECOND QUESTION THE ANSWER IS;;NO AS YOU BELIEVE ;BUT I BELIEVE THEY ARE ONE IN PURPOSE DOING AT ALL TIME gODS WILL;;;

TO THE THIRD QUESTION IT REQUIRES UNDERSTANDING THAT THE WORD IS THE SON OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST.THEY ARE 3 NAMES BUT ONE BEING. OTHER NAMES LIKE LAMB OF GOD,AND HIS NEW NAME YET TO BE UNCOVERED.

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus,

I agree that you can argue the three are part of the unity of the spirit but so are those students of Christ that have been reborn in spirit as well as the angels. They all have the divine nature of righteousness and holiness and have already attained through faith or are striving to obtain by faith a righteousness that is like God’s. The Holy Spirit teaches and gives that righteousness. God is the one who uses the Holy Spirit to distribute his authority and knowledge among the unity. Jesus is the one who commands us according to God’s will and the Holy Spirit serves as his messenger and what binds us together. I disagree that The Holy Spirit and Jesus are one in being God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2010,19:15)

I agree that you can argue the three are part of the unity of the spirit but so are those students of Christ that have been reborn in spirit as well as the angels.

Kerwin

So then we have “a Trinity” right? So you think the unity of the students of Christ (or students of God) is the same as the unity the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share with a singular name?

Are we in each other? Or is it that The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in us and we in them?

The Father is in the Son and the Spirit, the Son is in the Father and the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is in the Father and the Son. They are in every “Born again” believer all over the world all at the same time. Shall I show you the scriptures?

So how can their “unity” be the same as ours? We do not dwell in each other, do we? We only dwell in God because of Jesus, who lives in us his Body or the Temple of God, right?

How many Spirits have you received Kerwin? When you answer that then tell me if the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit live in you?

Then explain to me why the scriptures says our body’s are the Temple of God, yet in another place it says our body’s are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and in another place it says we are the “Body of Christ”?

Have we been baptized into more than “One Spirit”?

Now the Lord is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. Which Lord is Paul speaking of?

Do you still think that the “Unity of the Spirit” that we have as his Body is the same unity that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,17:52)

WJ last question yes, at one time or at one point The Word was not there before the point of the beginning.

Pierre

But none of the scriptures you quoted say Jesus was created or had a beginning. If he had a beginning then that would be the begining of all things wouldn't it?

But John 1:1 tells us that the Word/Jesus who was God was already there in the beginning with God.

So you say God created another God? How many Gods do you have or serve? You do serve Jesus don't you? Jesus said you can only have “one master”, didn't he?

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,20:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,17:52) WJ last question yes, at one time or at one point The Word was not there before the point of the beginning. Pierre But none of the scriptures you quoted say Jesus was created or had a beginning. If he had a beginning then that would be the begining of all things wouldn't it? But John 1:1 tells us that the Word/Jesus who was God was already there in the beginning with God. So you say God created another God? How many Gods do you have or serve? You do serve Jesus don't you? Jesus said you can only have “one master”, didn't he? WJ

WJ

you did not read all my scriptures so that make you,a twister of truth ,

because it is well explained ,but i do believe Jesus was and is a god as per the class of moses at the burning bush.

and also he is the first born,but i remember to explain all this already to you but you disregard what does not fit your believe ,

so whats the point ?

so the only reason from now on, you will see me answering is to defuse your twisted comments to others.

have all my regards.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 08 2010,22:12)

WJ you did not read all my scriptures so that make you,a twister of truth , because it is well explained ,but i  do believe Jesus was and is a god as per the class of moses at the burning bush.

Pierre

What in my words are twisted? You said “God created a God”, right?

If Jesus is “a God”, then is he your God? If not, then whose God is he?

There is nothing twisted about those questions are there?

Does God demand absolute devotion toward him, and only toward him? Is he a jealous God?

Do you serve Jesus with absolute devotion? If not why not?

Is he your only Master and Lord? Jude 1:4.

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2010,06:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,12:53) Pierre Do you think anybody is gonna read the “LOOOONG” quotes like that. You are just cluttering the thread. Why don't you pick out of the quotes what is relevant to the subject and then leave a link so if others want to read it all they can. WJ WJ if someone invite you for lunch would you pick out a bean or a pea or one slice of carrot,and so miss the vision of the display  plate,and also in that way  alter the mixed taste of the mixed veggies,with the mead not forgetting the drink. no, WJ if you do not want to read it this would be your lost. Pierre

HI Terraricca,

I didn't read it, and I don't consider myself to be at a loss!
If it is important, I would ONLY be interested in hearing it your words!

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus,

John 17:20-21(NIV) read:

Quote

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

This passage answers your question as Jesus requests all those that believe in him be one just as he and the Father are in unity. That unity is the unity of the Spirit of righteousness.

He also asks God that we the believers be in both him and the Father just as God and Jesus are in one another. It therefore follows that assuming Jesus’ request is granted that we are in each other through God and Jesus. I believe that is another way of saying the all members of the unity live within each other through the one Holy Spirit.

The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same Spirit. It is also that same Spirit we are reborn in. That Spirit occupies the tent our soul also lives in. That tent is referred to as the Temple. It is through that Spirit Jesus lives in us and through Jesus God lives in us. It is also through that same Spirit we live in each other bound together by the spirit that serves as the ligaments of the body of Christ and connects us to the one in authority who is Jesus and Jesus is subservient to God.

Lord can be speaking of anyone in authority but the immediate context makes it clear Paul was speaking of either Jesus or God. Alternatively he could be teaching us to obey the Holy Spirit as Lord of our lives. All three are true but which Paul was teaching I am not sure. A further look at context may aid in resolving that detail.

You wrote:

Quote

Do you still think that the “Unity of the Spirit” that we have as his Body is the same unity that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share?

That is what Jesus prayed for and I believe God said “So be it.”

[Author]

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