Matt 28:19? Article – What do you think?

[Not3in1]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,05:07)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,05:04) Nick, I agree.  When you read the Word day in, and day out, you begin to “hear” things that do not sound scriptural such as: God the Son Second person, (third person of God) Incarnation Preexistence Dual nature Fully Man and Fully God God the Holy Spirit Word God And the list could go on and on…… Hi Not3in1, I don't think that you begin to hear any of those things from reading the word. You hear them from people who misinterpret the word. Tim

Exactly! Ha – that is what I meant. Thanks, Tim.

You begin to hear things from OTHERS that do not sound scriptural.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,08:20)

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,05:07) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,05:04) Nick, I agree.  When you read the Word day in, and day out, you begin to “hear” things that do not sound scriptural such as: God the Son Second person, (third person of God) Incarnation Preexistence Dual nature Fully Man and Fully God God the Holy Spirit Word God And the list could go on and on…… Hi Not3in1, I don't think that you begin to hear any of those things from reading the word. You hear them from people who misinterpret the word. Tim Exactly!  Ha – that is what I meant.  Thanks, Tim.   You begin to hear things from OTHERS that do not sound scriptural.

not3

So does this mean that the Lord has finished revealing truth to the church?

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,05:07)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,05:04) Nick, I agree.  When you read the Word day in, and day out, you begin to “hear” things that do not sound scriptural such as: God the Son Second person, (third person of God) Incarnation Preexistence Dual nature Fully Man and Fully God God the Holy Spirit Word God And the list could go on and on…… Hi Not3in1, I don't think that you begin to hear any of those things from reading the word. You hear them from people who misinterpret the word. Tim

Tim

You also dont hear words like…

“thought and plan”

“a man like us in everyway”

“if hes not like us in everyway we couldnt follow him”

“god made all things with Jesus and us in mind”

“Jesus didnt create anything”

“Jesus is just a vessel like us who God works through”

“Jesus had no power of his own”

“Jesus didnt raise himself from the dead”

“Jesus is not the Lord and God of Thomas”

“Jesus didnt exist before he was born”

“the Word is not God”

“the holy spirit is not God”

“jesus was concieved like we are with gods sperm”

And the list goes on.

How sad that that the above only seeks to bring Jesus down to being just another anointed Prophet or King or less!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“not3

So does this mean that the Lord has finished revealing truth to the church?

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
Yes.
The Spirit will reveal to future to us
from what is written.

[acertainchap]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,14:54)

Hi sscott, You quote “John words are: “these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”. John never said that his writings were written “that we might believe that Jesus is God the Son.”

You deny the trinity but you say that there is “God the Son.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 29 2007,05:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2007,05:41) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 29 2007,05:25) I guess that my inability to follow your logic stems from the fact that it is that it is stessed over 200 times in the new testament that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus himself stresses this fact. Yet man has latched on to one or two questionable verses that can be understood in different ways, and has concluded that Jesus was deluding us and in fact is God. Tim Tim The problem is mens interpretation of what “Monogenes Son of God” means. If you notice after John recorded Thomas calling Jesus his Lord and God that John said… Jn 20: 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Seeing John also started this book by saying the “Word was God” and ending it with these verses is significant. Later John writes 1 Jn 1:1,2 and 1 Jn 5:20 to confirm his belief concerning the “Monogenes, Unique Son of God”. It is my opinion that “Son of God” was a term only found about 4 times in the OT scriptures and to the Jews of his day we see that for Jesus to claim to be the “Son of God” was blasphemy and meant to them he was making himself equal to God. John nor Jesus rebuked Thomas! Hi WorshippingJesus, I believe that at the time that Thomas made that statement, God had made Jesus His equal in authority for a time. Jesus was at his right hand. This was after Jesus had been resurrected. But that equality in authority only lasts until God is once again made all in all. Tim

Tim

BTW.

You say…

Quote

God had made Jesus His equal in authority for a time. Jesus was at his right hand. This was after Jesus had been resurrected. But that equality in authority only lasts until God is once again made all in all.

Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son?

What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ?

Would God give a lessor “being” equal authority to himself?

How could that be possible? Would their authority and Power be equal?

If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God?

How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”?

If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God?

How can a lessor being contain “all the Power and Authority of God” and not be God?

Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”?

Have we really pondered that question?

How can a lessor being than God uphold all things by the Word of his Power?

How can all things consist by a lessor being than God?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,10:03)

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,05:07) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,05:04) Nick, I agree.  When you read the Word day in, and day out, you begin to “hear” things that do not sound scriptural such as: God the Son Second person, (third person of God) Incarnation Preexistence Dual nature Fully Man and Fully God God the Holy Spirit Word God And the list could go on and on…… Hi Not3in1, I don't think that you begin to hear any of those things from reading the word. You hear them from people who misinterpret the word. Tim Tim You also dont hear words like… “thought and plan” “a man like us in everyway” “if hes not like us in everyway we couldnt follow him” “god made all things with Jesus and us in mind” “Jesus didnt create anything” “Jesus is just a vessel like us who God works through” “Jesus had no power of his own” “Jesus didnt raise himself from the dead” “Jesus is not the Lord and God of Thomas” “Jesus didnt exist before he was born” “the Word is not God” “the holy spirit is not God” “jesus was concieved like we are with gods sperm” And the list goes on. How sad that that the above only seeks to bring Jesus down to being just another anointed Prophet or King or less!

It's funny that you would list these sayings…..

Because as I'm reading most of them, God is prompting scripture that relates to each one! They are biblical! I'll have to take some time this weekend and show you what I mean.

On the other hand, theories like preexistence have to be pieced together.

[Not3in1]

Your pop-ups are obnoxious, WJ.

[NickHassan]

Immature too.
How old is this guy?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,12:10)

Tim BTW. You say… Quote God had made Jesus His equal in authority for a time. Jesus was at his right hand. This was after Jesus had been resurrected. But that equality in authority only lasts until God is once again made all in all. Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son? What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ? Would God give a lessor “being” equal authority to himself? How could that be possible? Would their authority and Power be equal? If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God? How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”? If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God? How can a lessor being contain “all the Power and Authority of God” and not be God? Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”? Have we really pondered that question? How can a lessor being than God uphold all things by the Word of his Power? How can all things consist by a lessor being than God?

Hi WorshippingJesus,

I really appreciate the time you give trying to understand my belief. Unfortunately, as long as we understand the meaning of words differently, it will be difficult.

I said that God made Jesus equal in authority. Within three sentences in your reply you had changed what I said to “equal in power and authority.” Then you expanded my statement to “All power and authority”

Somehow from your definition you then concluded that now God was a lessor being than the one to whom He had given authority.

WorshippingJesus, I am beginning to understand how it is possible for you to read the trinity into scriptures. You add so much to words that are not there.

Try just reading what is said for a while. You may be surprised what you may learn.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,11:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,14:54) Hi sscott, You quote “John words are: “these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”. John never said that his writings were written “that we might believe that Jesus is God the Son.” You deny the trinity but you say that there is “God the Son.”

Hi ACC,
Did you not notice I was quoting someone?
There is no God the Son.

We have One God the Father.

[TimothyVI]

WorshippingJesus,

Please forgive my sarcasm in my earlier reply.
I will answer each of your questions.

1.Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son?

Ans. Yes, to me it would mean that Jesus now has the authority through the power of God to rule the universe and everything that is in it.

Power is not the same as authority, their meanings differ. “Power” refers to the ability to achieve certain ends, 'authority' refers to the legitimacy, justification and right to exercise that power. For example whilst a mob has the power to punish a criminal, such as through lynching, only the courts have the authority to order capital punishment

2.What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ?

Ans. It means exactly what it says. God gave Jesus the authority to rule everything. Of course God still has that authority Himself but he is letting Jesus rule for a period of time.

3.If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God?

Ans. I suppose that if that were true, then the lessor being would be equal to God. However I never said that God gave all power and authority. I said authority.

4.How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”?

Ans. A lessor being could not have all power and authority. See the difficulty you create when you change what is written.

5.If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God?

Ans. If any being had all power and authority, that being could not possibly be “lessor”. However, again I did not say anything about all power and authority.

6.Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”?

Ans. I do. Do you now?

The rest of your questions are all about something that I did not even state. But my previous answers address all of them.

I hope that my meaning and understanding of authority is more clear to you now.

[kenrch]

Quote

Please forgive my sarcasm in my earlier reply. I will answer each of your questions.

GOOD FOR YOU TIM

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,18:59)

Your pop-ups are obnoxious, WJ.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,23:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,12:10) Tim BTW. You say… Quote God had made Jesus His equal in authority for a time. Jesus was at his right hand. This was after Jesus had been resurrected. But that equality in authority only lasts until God is once again made all in all. Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son? What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ? Would God give a lessor “being” equal authority to himself? How could that be possible? Would their authority and Power be equal? If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God? How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”? If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God? How can a lessor being contain “all the Power and Authority of God” and not be God? Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”? Have we really pondered that question? How can a lessor being than God uphold all things by the Word of his Power? How can all things consist by a lessor being than God? Hi WorshippingJesus, I really appreciate the time you give trying to understand my belief. Unfortunately, as long as we understand the meaning of words differently, it will be difficult. I said that God made Jesus equal in authority. Within three sentences in your reply you had changed what I said to “equal in power and authority.” Then you expanded my statement to “All power and authority” Somehow from your definition you then concluded that now God was a lessor being than the one to whom He had given authority. WorshippingJesus, I am beginning to understand how it is possible for you to read the trinity into scriptures. You add so much to words that are not there. Try just reading what is said for a while. You may be surprised what you may learn. Tim

94

You say…

Quote

I really appreciate the time you give trying to understand my belief. Unfortunately, as long as we understand the meaning of words differently, it will be difficult.

True!

You say…

Quote

I said that God made Jesus equal in authority. Within three sentences in your reply you had changed what I said to “equal in power and authority.” Then you expanded my statement to “All power and authority”

I appologise. I thought we were talking about the preceeding verse to the proclaimed text of this thread.

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

You say…

Quote

Somehow from your definition you then concluded that now God was a lessor being than the one to whom He had given authority.

Maybe you could show me where I concluded this.

I simply was trying to provoke thought through questions and not making any declarations of truth!

You say…

Quote

WorshippingJesus, I am beginning to understand how it is possible for you to read the trinity into scriptures. You add so much to words that are not there. Try just reading what is said for a while. You may be surprised what you may learn.

Could you please give me scripture that shows I read into it the trinity and the alleged proof that it is so, and then give me your side.

Tim, I do read the scriptures and take them litteraly, which I find few here do without reading into them.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ July 01 2007,00:03)

WorshippingJesus, Please forgive my sarcasm in my earlier reply. I will answer each of your questions. 1.Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son? Ans. Yes, to me it would mean that Jesus now has the authority through the power of God to rule the universe and everything that is in it. Power is not the same as authority, their meanings differ. “Power” refers to the ability to achieve certain ends, 'authority' refers to the legitimacy, justification and right to exercise that power. For example whilst a mob has the power to punish a criminal, such as through lynching, only the courts have the authority to order capital punishment 2.What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ? Ans. It means exactly what it says. God gave Jesus the authority to rule everything. Of course God still has that authority Himself but he is letting Jesus rule for a period of time. 3.If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God? Ans. I suppose that if that were true, then the lessor being would be equal to God. However I never said that God gave all power and authority. I said authority. 4.How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”? Ans. A lessor being could not have all power and authority. See the difficulty you create when you change what is written. 5.If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God? Ans. If any being had all power and authority, that being could not possibly be “lessor”. However, again I did not say anything about all power and authority. 6.Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”? Ans. I do. Do you now? The rest of your questions are all about something that I did not even state. But my previous answers address all of them. I hope that my meaning and understanding of authority is more clear to you now.

Tim

Thank you for your answers.

I really wasnt looking for any but since you took the time, I would like to address a couple of your points.

You say…

Quote

Power is not the same as authority, their meanings differ.

I am not sure I agree with your definition.

Anyway my point was Matt 28:18

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So we see Jesus has “ALL” power and authority!

My questions were meant to provoke thought in this light.

For instance, how can a lessor being than God have “All” power and authority, which also includes all the power that holds the entire universe and all things together?

For Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power and by him all things consist. Heb 1:3 Col 1:17

Apparently you agree with me because when I said…

Quote

If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God?

You said…

Quote

Ans. I suppose that if that were true, then the lessor being would be equal to God. However I never said that God gave all power and authority. I said authority.

HMMM!

You said…

Quote

Ans. A lessor being could not have all power and authority. See the difficulty you create when you change what is written.

Tim it looks like you are having the difficulty!

I said…

Quote

Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”?

You said…

Quote

Ans. I do. Do you now?

Do you?

You said…

Quote

The rest of your questions are all about something that I did not even state. But my previous answers address all of them. I hope that my meaning and understanding of authority is more clear to you now.

Yes it is clear to me!  

[Worshipping Jesus]

BTW Tim.

I meant to point out that the Hebrew word for Power also means authority!

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2007,17:25)

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,23:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2007,12:10) Tim BTW. You say… Quote God had made Jesus His equal in authority for a time. Jesus was at his right hand. This was after Jesus had been resurrected. But that equality in authority only lasts until God is once again made all in all. Have you considered what it would mean for God to give equal authority to the Son? What does that mean? Does it mean that they have the same authority? Is half of the authority of Gods and equally half is Christ? Would God give a lessor “being” equal authority to himself? How could that be possible? Would their authority and Power be equal? If God gave “All authority and power” to a lessor being would the lessor being be equal to God? How could a “lessor being” have “ALL” Power and Authority”? If the Lessor being had “all” Power and Authority would that not make the lessor being greater than God? How can a lessor being contain “all the Power and Authority of God” and not be God? Do we understand what “ALL” Power and Authority means”? Have we really pondered that question? How can a lessor being than God uphold all things by the Word of his Power? How can all things consist by a lessor being than God? Hi WorshippingJesus, I really appreciate the time you give trying to understand my belief. Unfortunately, as long as we understand the meaning of words differently, it will be difficult. I said that God made Jesus equal in authority. Within three sentences in your reply you had changed what I said to “equal in power and authority.” Then you expanded my statement to “All power and authority” Somehow from your definition you then concluded that now God was a lessor being than the one to whom He had given authority. WorshippingJesus, I am beginning to understand how it is possible for you to read the trinity into scriptures. You add so much to words that are not there. Try just reading what is said for a while. You may be surprised what you may learn. Tim 94 You say… Quote I really appreciate the time you give trying to understand my belief. Unfortunately, as long as we understand the meaning of words differently, it will be difficult. True! You say… Quote I said that God made Jesus equal in authority. Within three sentences in your reply you had changed what I said to “equal in power and authority.” Then you expanded my statement to “All power and authority” I appologise. I thought we were talking about the preceeding verse to the proclaimed text of this thread. Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. You say… Quote Somehow from your definition you then concluded that now God was a lessor being than the one to whom He had given authority. Maybe you could show me where I concluded this. I simply was trying to provoke thought through questions and not making any declarations of truth! You say… Quote WorshippingJesus, I am beginning to understand how it is possible for you to read the trinity into scriptures. You add so much to words that are not there. Try just reading what is said for a while. You may be surprised what you may learn. Could you please give me scripture that shows I read into it the trinity and the alleged proof that it is so, and then give me your side. Tim, I do read the scriptures and take them litteraly, which I find few here do without reading into them.

Sorry 94!

This post was meant for Tim.

[TimothyVI]

Hi worshippingJesus,

I understand the mixup.
But you say “I appologise. I thought we were talking about the preceeding verse to the proclaimed text of this thread.

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Again, I only find the word power used in the KJV and the DBY version. Every other version that I have access to uses the word authority. Lord knows that you have versions that I have never heard of before. You have shown those in past threads, so I won't even argue the point.

Anyway, that was why I used the word authority and was not even thinking power and authority when I said that God gave Jesus all authority.

Thank you for the time that you take clarifying your thoughts to me.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ July 01 2007,22:40)

Hi worshippingJesus, I understand the mixup. But you say “I appologise. I thought we were talking about the preceeding verse to the proclaimed text of this thread. Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Again, I only find the word power used in the KJV and the DBY version. Every other version that I have access to uses the word authority. Lord knows that you have versions that I have never heard of before. You have shown those in past threads, so I won't even argue the point. Anyway, that was why I used the word authority and was not even thinking power and authority when I said that God gave Jesus all authority. Thank you for the time that you take clarifying your thoughts to me. Tim

Tim

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV “Power” Greek, 'exousia', which means;

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

If one has “All Power” they have “All Authority”.

If one has “All Authority” they have “All Power”.

You can not seperate the two.

Heb 1: KJV
Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

NLT
The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.

NIV
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

NASB
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

ASV
who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/i]

Power, Greek, 'dunamis' which means;

1) strength power, ability

a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth

I hope you can see that if Jesus upholds “ALL Things” by the word of his power, then he also has all power!

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

He is not only the executer of creation, but the sustainer of it!

Blessings!

[Author]

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