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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,04:24) Hi E,
The old favourite:
No one can understand God.
“Begs the question… rhetoric….. lack of full and total comprehension DOES NOT equal confusion. No one claims to fully understand God do they? Does this mean that they are automatically confused? No, of course not. The finite will never fully comprehend the infinite, so I really wish the non/anti-Trinitarians would drop this little bit of meaningless rhetoric”
“The Trinity is simply the view that makes the most sense of all the biblical data considered as a whole.”
Not good enough sorry.
True or not true , not the best guess.But what we can know about God is TAUGHT in scripture.
You ask us to believe a theory on the nature of God
ascribing to it as much validity as the Word of God itself,
so do not hide hide behind claims of ignorance please
as if you really are ignorant
why are you presenting us with this new teaching as if it was truth?
so tell me Nick, do you fully and completely understand God?blessings
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 02 2006,23:07) epistemaniac, Ah! I see the problem now.
You said:
Quote as far as number 3 goes, then to be consistent in your reasoning, you would have to say that so too when a person dies and their spirit lives on, they must be 2 different people, clearly, this is not the case. The problem is that I don't share your presumed belief that when a person dies their spirit lives on. I believe that when a person dies, they are dead – not alive in a different form. The idea that death is simply a release of a man's “spirit or soul”, (which would better be termed “ghost” in this instance), is both Gnostic in origin and false. In my view, resurrection, in all cases, is the act of bringing back to life that which was dead. Thus, when Y'shua says, “I was dead”, in Revelations 1:18, he actually means it. Of course, if he were Gnostic, (or Trinitarian), he could not possibly think of himself as ever having been dead, since he would have known the “higher truth” that he has always been alive, and only ever changed forms.
Bearing that in mind, let's take a closer look at 1 Peter 3:18-20:
Quote For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God… So far, I think that we would understand the passage in the same way.
Quote …being put to death in the flesh… He died.
Quote …but made alive by the Spirit… He was resurrected. Notice the precision of the verb being used here. It does not say that he “was” alive. It says that he was “made” alive. That presupposes that before he was “made” to be alive, he was dead. Thus, when Y'shua says that he was dead in Revelations 1:18, he actually means it.
Quote …by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. This is a post-resurrection mission to rebellious spirit beings described in Genesis 6:
Quote 1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 2 Peter 2:4
Quote For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; But, getting back to my question. In your last post, you said:
Quote and so YHWH did not die on the cross, and as far as Jesus is concerned, though His body died, He did not thereby cease to exist by His death on the Cross… How do you reconcile that with what Y'shua says in Revelations 1:18? This is the resurrected Y'shua speaking, whom you would freely call YHWH, so in effect, from your point of view, YHWH here is saying, “I was dead”. Is he not contradicting your statement, or is his statement simply not precise enough for Trinitarian doctrine?
yep… that difference of opinion re our spirits living on after death is creating quite a different perspective on things…. thats ok
for me, the clincher on this doctrine are the following passages:
(2 Cor 5:6-8 NASB) Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– {7} for we walk by faith, not by sight– {8} we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”
How can Paul be “at home with the Lord” after his death if the spirit does not live on?
you say that this belief is based on gnosticism… could you provide me with some literature or links that show this, specifically… I have read quite a bit on gnosticism and am aware that they believe the body/physical world to be inherently evil and the spirit inherently good, but that is not what I am saying at all. Not all spirits will be “at home with the Lord” after their physical death. At any rate, there are no one single “gnostic” set of beliefs, gnostic teachers range from Valentius to Marcion, and there is little that they hold in common, other then the dualistic nature of creation.
As far as Jesus saying “I was dead” in Revelation, I believe this quite literally, his body died on the Cross, but not Christ Himself, He has an immortal soul, just as all humans do.
Are you saying that you believe in the soul sleep or the like?
I do not see anywhere in 1 Pe 3:18 that specifically says this was a post-resurrection of His body appearance … where do you see that this passage explicitly says this?
If there is no delineation of Spirit and Body, then why does John take the time to distinguish that the body died but the spirit was made alive? If Jesus ceased to exist in any conscience state after His death on the Cross, this distinction seems superfluous.
At any rate, I reconcile the fact that Jesus said He died as referring only to His body, and thus, as God, He lived on despite the death of the body.
blessings
as an aside, we must always keep in mind the Genetic Fallacy, that is, to deny a certain proposition or set of propositions based simply and merely on their source. So if the Gnostics believed X, X is not false simply because Gnostics believe it. To illustrate this further, many atheistic materialists and Liberals hold that with the disintegration of the physical body, the human ceases to exist. But just because these atheists and apostate LIberals believe the same thing as some other religious groups in regard to the cessation of the continuation of consciousness, it is not therefore false. IOW, I could not dismiss your belief in these matters simply because atheistic materialists and Liberals also believe it.
At any rate, here are a few things to think about:
“The Biblical Doctrine
The Bible, particularly the New Testament, teaches that the souls of believers immediately pass into glory at death. “The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.” That the Bible teaches this may be seen in such passages as 2 Cor. 5:1–8.
“For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord (for we walk by faith, not by sight); we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.”
The Apostle here is speaking of what happens at death, not at the resurrection from the dead. The earthly house is dissolved, and the soul is, as it were, unclothed, longing to be clothed upon with the resurrection body. We do not long for death, or to be unclothed, but for the return of Christ, when we shall all be changed and clothed upon.Phil. 1:21–24 says:
“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if to live in the flesh, [if] this shall bring fruit from my work, then what I shall choose I know not. But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better: yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake.”
The Apostle indicates that at death he expects to depart and to be with Christ.
“It is his joy perfectly to live unto Christ. And therefore, since death only will enable him perfectly to live unto the Lord, it is gain for him. But outside of this the passage rather clearly speaks of the fact that the apostle expects immediate glory after his decease.”
In Luke 23:43, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise…”, our Lord indicated that the thief would enjoy the blessings of paradise at his death.
In Heb. 12:23 we “are come to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.” This indicates that even here, we are already enrolled with those in heaven. This passage dos not speak directly of the moment of death, but does imply that we are already numbered with those in heaven. Those who have died must then be in heaven.
The souls of unbelievers remain in the darkness awaiting the final judgment. They suffer punishment during the intermediate state. This is the clear teaching of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. And in Hades , he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame!”
Though this is a parable, and every detail should not be explained literally, the clear teaching of the passage is that at death believers are in a conscious state of glory, while the wicked are in a conscious state of suffering torments.
(Smith, M. H. (1996, c1994). Systematic Theology)blessings, Ken
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
Was Lazarus dead
Or asleep?
Or both?I believe that Lazarus was literally dead. However, in the eternal scheme of things, one could think metaphorically of Lazarus as being asleep, because we will all be “reawakened” during the resurrection.
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WITI
You say
“If someone is both dead in a tomb and alive somewhere else”,Is a dead body a person?
Adam Pastor has responded to this already, and I am in full agreement with what he wrote on this.
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
Are these the ones in Tartaroo?
“This is a post-resurrection mission to rebellious spirit beings described in Genesis 6:”
If so are they to be preached to or are they awaiting a judgement of condemnation for which the lake of fire was prepared?
2Peter
” For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment”;Yes, as you probably already know, 2 Peter 2:4 contains the only reference to Tartarus in the entire NT, (though many translators use the word “hell” instead), and it refers to angels, not men. As far as whether or not they need to be “preached to”, I would simply say that I do not know all of YHWH’s divine plan. What is clear though is the human spirit, (i.e. human life), returns to YHWH, and I would not describe YHWH as a “prison”.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.”Hi E,
You ask
“o tell me Nick, do you fully and completely understand God?”No
But I do know Him.And I am amazed at the temerity of those who would say they do know God
and yet try and put their God in a manmade trinity box
and insist that salvation is dependant on others sharing that arrogant view.I can only conclude they neither
know nor
understand nor
fear GodHi WIT
Do you think then that these angels can be saved?
Was the message of salvation also for angels?
Where is it written?“Yes, as you probably already know, 2 Peter 2:4 contains the only reference to Tartarus in the entire NT, (though many translators use the word “hell” instead), and it refers to angels, not men. As far as whether or not they need to be “preached to”, I would simply say that I do not know all of YHWH’s divine plan. What is clear though is the human spirit, (i.e. human life), returns to YHWH, and I would not describe YHWH as a “prison”.”
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote yep… that difference of opinion re our spirits living on after death is creating quite a different perspective on things…. thats ok for me, the clincher on this doctrine are the following passages:
(2 Cor 5:6-8 NASB) Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– {7} for we walk by faith, not by sight– {8} we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”
How can Paul be “at home with the Lord” after his death if the spirit does not live on?
This is a huge aside to get into and it doesn't really belong in this discussion thread, but we happened to be having this discussion in the “What is Man?” thread. We can pick this up over there if you like.
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote you say that this belief is based on gnosticism… could you provide me with some literature or links that show this, specifically… I have read quite a bit on gnosticism and am aware that they believe the body/physical world to be inherently evil and the spirit inherently good, but that is not what I am saying at all. Not all spirits will be “at home with the Lord” after their physical death. At any rate, there are no one single “gnostic” set of beliefs, gnostic teachers range from Valentius to Marcion, and there is little that they hold in common, other then the dualistic nature of creation. Fair enough. I personally believe that what you have expressed is a derivative of Gnostic teachings, but it is certainly not a word for word regurgetation of some Gnostic belief. What I think you share with Gnostics is the concept of that we escape our bodies at death. In short, no one is ever really dead, but merely alive in different forms.
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote As far as Jesus saying “I was dead” in Revelation, I believe this quite literally, his body died on the Cross, but not Christ Himself, He has an immortal soul, just as all humans do. All humans have immortal souls? This is another aside along the same subject lines, but have you never read 1 Timothy 6:15-16?
“…He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.”
Why do you think we have to be given eternal life?
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”(These are somewhat rhetorical questions unless you want to pick this up in that other thread.)
epestimaniac wrote:
Quote Are you saying that you believe in the soul sleep or the like? No, I believe that people are actually dead when they die. Resurrection is the act of bringing them back to life. The judgement will determine whether they are granted eternal life, or whether they will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
epestimaniac wrote:
Quote I do not see anywhere in 1 Pe 3:18 that specifically says this was a post-resurrection of His body appearance … where do you see that this passage explicitly says this? If there is no delineation of Spirit and Body, then why does John take the time to distinguish that the body died but the spirit was made alive? If Jesus ceased to exist in any conscience state after His death on the Cross, this distinction seems superfluous.
You failed to take into account my specific comments about the verb that is used in the verse. Here it is again:
Quote Notice the precision of the verb being used here. It does not say that he “was” alive. It says that he was “made” alive. That presupposes that before he was “made” to be alive, he was dead. Peter is differentiating between his death and resurrection:
“…put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit… .”
No, the passage does not explicitly say that it was a post-resurrection mission, but I don't see any explicit mention that this was during Y'shua's time in the tomb either. It's a matter of inference. I have given you a very specific reason why I have inferred what I believe, but you have yet to address it.
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote At any rate, I reconcile the fact that Jesus said He died as referring only to His body, and thus, as God, He lived on despite the death of the body. So, only Y'shua's body died for sins, not Y'shua the person?
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote as an aside, we must always keep in mind the Genetic Fallacy, that is, to deny a certain proposition or set of propositions based simply and merely on their source. So if the Gnostics believed X, X is not false simply because Gnostics believe it. That is why I carefully chose my words when I said the following:
Quote The idea that death is simply a release of a man's “spirit or soul”, (which would better be termed “ghost” in this instance), is both Gnostic in origin and false. Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT
Do you think then that these angels can be saved?
Was the message of salvation also for angels?
Where is it written?1 Peter 3:18 doesn't say anything about salvation. One can preach, or proclaim, good news or bad.
Now here's a question for you:
Do you believe that the human spirit goes to “prison” or to YHWH at death?
Hi WIT,
You say
” As far as whether or not they need to be “preached to”, I would simply say that I do not know all of YHWH’s divine plan”If they are condemned does it matter whether or not they knew God's entire plan?
Neither do we.
Were these sons of God or spirits in that Tartaroo prison?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,06:45) Hi Adam P,
Do you think a dead body is a person?
“What? Nick are you saying that whilst Jesus laid in the tomb for 3 days; he was at the same time, during these 3 days, alive preaching to the spirits in prison?”
BTW Nick
I answered you on page 16Hi Adam,
Sorry missed that one.
Sorry also that I cannot agree that a dead body is in any way a person.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,21:03) Hi E,
You ask
“o tell me Nick, do you fully and completely understand God?”No
But I do know Him.And I am amazed at the temerity of those who would say they do know God
and yet try and put their God in a manmade trinity box
and insist that salvation is dependant on others sharing that arrogant view.I can only conclude they neither
know nor
understand nor
fear God
thanks for your candor Nick…. so just as you do not fully comprehend God, yet this does noty stop you from knowing some things about Him truly, so too can the Trinitarian say the same thing in regard to the extent of knowledge….IOW, whats good for the goose….. don't complain about Trinitarians not fully (exhaustively) understanding the Trinity (and this not preventing them from still believing it) when you don't fully understand God either….
blessings
Hi E,
Are they wise to commit to
and state as doctrine what is
untaught in scripture,
unprovable by direct statement from scripture
and if wrong may be highly offensive to their Creator God?hey there WIT…
I don't think I would put my belief as that of “escaping” the body, in fact, I am sure I never said that…. I do not adhere to the Gnostic belief that the physical is evil at all…. I believe there will be an eventual resurrection of the body… not an escape from it…..
another strong testimony against the cessation of consciousness etc post physical death is the fact that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. If Jesus were dead in the sense of no conscience experience, then it seems impossible that He would have been able to raise Himself from the dead. (John 2:19-22 NASB) Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” {20} The Jews therefore said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” {21} But He was speaking of the temple of His body. {22} When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken.”
So I have to ask, how could Jesus raise Himself from the dead if, after His death on the cross, He no longer existed in any conscious form, eg in Spirit?as far as Peter goes, there is no room for being dogmatic about this passage, as Elwell notes:
“Peter stresses the objective nature of the definitive and accomplished work of Jesus on the cross. He was put to death in the sphere of the flesh but made alive in the sphere of the Spirit.
(vv. 18-20) This passage is one of the most difficult to interpret in the Bible, there being more than 90 variations of interpretation attempted by Christian scholars since the second century. Generally, however, these may be reduced to four plausible understandings: (1) Jesus descended into Hades (the realm of the dead) between His crucifixion and resurrection to proclaim judgment upon those condemned in the O.T. period. (2) Jesus descended into Tartarus (the place of confinement for fallen angels) to proclaim judgment to the fallen angels. (3) Jesus descended into a realm of Hades known as Paradise, in which O.T. saints were held until the atonement could be actually (historically) accomplished. The preaching would be the message of the finished atonement at Golgotha. (4) The Spirit of Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 1:11) preached through Noah concerning impending judgment to the disobedient spirits of men in the antediluvian (pre-Flood) civilization. The latter two views are the more popular among evangelicals and are also the more feasible. The third view offers explanation of Eph. 4:8, 9 to the effect that Christ descended to the lower parts of the earth and led captivity captive (a reference to the loosing of O.T. saints). The fourth view better explains the specific mention of the antediluvians and their disobedience. It is in accord with Peter's assessment of Noah as “a preacher of righteousness” (cf. 2 Pet. 2:5). In this fourth view, also, fewer difficulties are involved in harmonizing the statements of Jesus from the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43) and “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit” (Luke 23:46).”I am satisfied that my understanding of the passage is every bit as plausible as yours…..
blessings
Hi E,
You will be aware that God was in Christ and spoke through Christ so the claim of Jn 2.19 fits with the other 18 odd references in the bible that God raised Jesus from the dead.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,21:03) Hi E,
You ask
“o tell me Nick, do you fully and completely understand God?”No
But I do know Him.And I am amazed at the temerity of those who would say they do know God
and yet try and put their God in a manmade trinity box
and insist that salvation is dependant on others sharing that arrogant view.I can only conclude they neither
know nor
understand nor
fear God
Whoa Nick,Excellent point. Also kudos for what you said about not having complete comprehension of God does not equal confusion. The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion so he COULDN'T have written the trinity doctrine.
“The one throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty whoever he may be.” [Galations 5:10]
Those who have thrown the Body of Christ with added manmade doctrines of men will be penalized. Sorry but that doesn't song like a fun date to me. Its so funny. When trinity believers can't explain the trinity doctrine, (because according to Hastings and anyone with half a brian, it uses illogical and unBiblical proofs), they always end up saying: “Well you don't really have to understand it.”
What? We were made to know God. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, “You worship what you do not know.” [John 4:22] Was this a compliment? Uh, no.
Also some arrogant author who was blasting other ministers as false teachers for not holding to the Bible, referred to some other ministers as being unsaved because they deny the diety of Christ! I wrote and told him to cite the exact scripture which says one much confess that Jesus is God to be saved. He could not provide one scripture to support this nonsense. So I told him he should look at the beam in his own eye because he was also a false teacher for added a requirement for salvation which is NOT in the Bible. Same thing for the trinity. Show me what scripture says one must believe God is a trinity in order to be saved. Cricket, cricket. Chirp, chirp. Yep that's what you'll get again. Dead air space.
So Nick does know God, E-Maniac. In just a few short elegant strokes of the keyboard, he silenced the tomes of gibberish you wrote.
Really, don't you have a job E-Maniac? WHERE do you find the time to post all this mindless stuff? Bizzare.
Semmy
Hi Adam P,
I found this on about.inc
“In Hebrew Kabbalah, the nephesh (Nefesh) is one of the three parts of the Human soul. Nephesh means animal, and refers to the physical body, and the animal instincts. Some equate the nephesh to the “reptile brain,” the primitive brain stem that governs our most primal instincts and emotions”.To be quite honest I know I have a spirit/soul. Does my spirit/soul leave my body as soon as I die? I really don't know. I see scriptures for both arguments. When I die if I just sleep and no nothing until the Lord wakes me it will be as though I never slept at all. If my spirit/soul goes to be present with the Lord as soon as I die the sooner the better. One minute you are aware then you die/sleep; the next thing you know is that your are in the presents of the Lord. I'm fine with either one. But which is the truth?
Seems as though Paul was saying that we sleep and awake with the Lord some who are alive at the coming of our Lord will be changed. But the “dead” rise first.What of Jesus? Jesus suffered, felt the pain, paid our debt, and died as a human. But did Jesus sleep? Not according to Peter. Peter says Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. Jesus while human experienced everything we do but with no sin. I believe that is the difference. We are appointed to die once “then judgement” (Heb. 9:27). Jesus did not have to await judgement. He had no sin. The “only” begotten of the Father.
1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 15:18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
1Co 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Nick, Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism … Jewish occult.
Don't even go there … don't look for answers there.Turn from such vanities …
Paul describes Kabbalah as …
(Col 2:4) And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Col 2:18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(1 Tim 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
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