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Quote (Cubes @ July 23 2006,01:25) Ha ha! Thanks, guys. And to think we're just having a nice outing at the ball game! Never have so few put so many to flight by the word of God. It's useless to build on sand.
and this too is in error….for it is only 1, myself, who has, with the strength of the Lord and the power of His word, which is sharper then a two edged sword, have put all you Arians to flight, and have answered each.
so to stick with the baseball anaolgy, what has happened is you have just lost to a one man baseball team. Now THAT ought to be enough for you to never want to sing “take me out to the ball game” ever again….!!! lol 😉
blessings
Quote (seminarian @ July 23 2006,01:57) Quote (t8 @ July 22 2006,11:47) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,21:51) well of course Mary did not give birth to God!! He is eternal, just as the Son and Spirit are… at any rate, here is Matt 1:1, and honestly, I can't see any evidence for either position in it:
But have a look at the confusion that the Trinity doctrine brings.It has allowed such lies as these:
T8,I took a look at that Google link you put here. You are right. What a load of confusion! Then there was some loud mouthed Pope declaring Mary's holy maternity or something as yet ANOTHER extra-Biblical doctrine. Oh boy.
That's why the Bible says God is not the author of confusion.
Galations 1:7 also confirms why this is NO Gospel at all and is therefore throwing people into such confusion:“…and are turning to a different Gospel-7 which is really no Gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” [Galations 1:7]
Paul goes on to say, ” But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other that the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
Now is that a serious enough warning for everybody? To emphasize this he REPEATS the same thing in verse 9. I don't know about E-Maniac or the pastor of education or anyone else, but as for me, I'm going to obey what the Bible itself says. I could care less about what some self appointed Popes in the 3rd and 4th centuries came up with especially since Christ and his apostles did not teach any of these doctrines.
Well, I have pastoral calls tomorrow morning. You know as you said, where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am also, holds true in my ministry. I am just as blessed serving in my own ministry and God has revealed to me that He will increase my joy in His service even more.
I also am being spared of hearing, (again), that God became a man and died on the cross for us, or the pastor praying to Jesus and calling him “Father God”, and that we should tithe or give 10% of our income to his church. If I didn't feel so sorry for many of the members there, I wouldn't bother but God has called me to love these people and has blessed me for being obedient. It's tough though. I'm nearly completely out the door now, Praise God. Once I am ordained, I think that's going to be it completely unless God has other plans.
Pray for me as I'm praying for you guys here.
Semmy
sigh…. just because Rome believes one (or a thousand) wrong things, it does not follow that they were or are wrong on all things. So just because they have come up with the blasphemous doctrine of Mary as co-redemptrix (as well as the Mass and many otrher corruptions, mainly denying the gospel of salvation by faith alone), it does not follow that they got the Trinity wrong. So simple seminarian… so basic…. look, what you clearly need is a good course in logic, because you cannot seem to post a single post without committing some simplistic error in your thinking.Take for instance the fact that the Word says that God is not a God of confusion, well, to suppose that applies to Trinitarians, you have to do a little something first, you have to actually prove it to be the case, and this, you have not even come close to doing. This is begging the question and committing a caricature/straw man because any Trinitarian will tell you that they believe that God is not a God of confusion. But, and here is where you and so many other Arians (particularly the JW's) get it wrong.
We believe that God is not a God of confusion, BUT we also believe that we cannot fully grasp God and His nature and that we in our finite minds could never hope to know God in the fullness of His being. The Arian tries to elevate themselves to God’s understanding and says that if it doesn’t totally make sense or if I can’t totally understand it, then it can’t be true. How arrogant! Instead, all of you should follow Isaiah’s example in chapter 6:5.
So it is the Trinitarian who says “I will just have to accept the biblical testimony…. I admit I do not fully understand how can be 3 in person and 1 in essence, how there can be only 1 God, yet the Son and Holy Spirit have attributes of deity attributed to them… and while I may not understand how this can be, we take the Bible for what it says, and accept, and not try and say that simply because we cannot fully understand how it can be, we do, in faith, accept it.
If you have been spared of hearing those things seminary, you are missing out on the truth, as I have plainly shown you through exegesis and pointing out your numerous illogical committals, especially Informal Fallacies.
As far as prayers go, I will pray that you come to see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, and that you never have the opportunity to ever lead one single person astray with your false teaching. Whoever would “ordain” one with your beliefs should themselves be subject to church discipline.
Lastly, since I brought up Isaiah 6 above, you might be interested to know that this is another passage that proves the Trinity doctrine. For who is it that Isaiah sees in the chamber? Isaiah says it is none other then the great Adonai! For when the multitude asks in John 12:34 who the Son of man is, Jesus says that it is none other than He, the very one who’s glory Isaiah saw in the temple: (John 12:41 NASB) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 25 2006,20:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2006,19:42) Hi E,
Could you be wrong about God being a trinity?
absolutely …could you?
blessings
Hi E,
I love learning so I would love you to show me the error of my beliefs from scripture.
Starting from the scriptural fact that Jesus really is the Son of God how can you get from scripture that he is also God Himself?Hi E,
If you wish to be effective as a warrior for Christ, you must be reborn into the Son of God, and you must abide within the whole counsel of God and not stray into intellectual byways and myths like trinity theory.“for it is only 1, myself, who has, with the strength of the Lord and the power of His word, which is sharper then a two edged sword, have put all you Arians to flight, and have answered each.”
psst We are not Arians.
Hi E,
Thank you for admitting you do not understand what you teach.
Should we teach what we do not understand?” I admit I do not fully understand how can be 3 in person and 1 in essence, how there can be only 1 God, yet the Son and Holy Spirit have attributes of deity attributed to them… and while I may not understand how this can be, we take the Bible for what it says, and accept, and not try and say that simply because we cannot fully understand how it can be, we do, in faith, accept it.”
Hi E,
Jesus is God according to you and he is a human being. Does that make God a human being? I thought there are three persons in one being so how can one be a being in himself?“That is why you can quote a scripture like “for us there is one God, the Father” and it watch it roll off them like water on a ducks back, because non-trinitarians fail to see, over and over, that saying things like “Jesus had a God, therefore He is not God” is so manifestly false as considered within the Trinitarian worldview, which easily handles claims like this by pointing out that Jesus was a man as well as being God, and in so far as He was a man, we can speak of Him from a purely human perspective, that He calls Yahweh “God”, that He was indeed thirsty, hungry, tired, etc etc etc.. please please please people, get this into your heads!! Proving that Jesus was a human being, which is all we have to do in these “Jesus had a God” types of responses, is not a problem, and never discounts the Trinitarian view. Get it? We believe that Jesus really was indeed a real human being!!”
Hi E,
You say
“Lastly, since I brought up Isaiah 6 above, you might be interested to know that this is another passage that proves the Trinity doctrine. For who is it that Isaiah sees in the chamber? Isaiah says it is none other then the great Adonai! For when the multitude asks in John 12:34 who the Son of man is, Jesus says that it is none other than He, the very one who’s glory Isaiah saw in the temple: (John 12:41 NASB) These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.”Classic.
Trinitarians think Jesus had his own throne with his own Seraphim etc because he is regarded as a deity, despite their protestations against being polytheistic. So trinity God to them does not mean three in one but means they are in fact individual deities?NIV has added the word “Jesus” in Jn 12 which is anathema.
Careful reading of the verse shows it is the Father just as is shown in Rev 4.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2006,22:09) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 25 2006,20:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2006,19:42) Hi E,
Could you be wrong about God being a trinity?
absolutely …could you?
blessings
Hi E,
I love learning so I would love you to show me the error of my beliefs from scripture.
Starting from the scriptural fact that Jesus really is the Son of God how can you get from scripture that he is also God Himself?
quite simply really, for Jesus' being the Son of God in no way contradicts that He is also God the Son….. if you can show me how saying that just because Jesus is the Son of God and also the God the Son is illogical, that is violates some informal or formal fallacy, I would be very interested in seeing the proof.and, if you read some of the replies I have just spent quite a bit of time on above, you can easily see at least some of the reasons as to why it is that I think that in order to make sense of the whole of Scripture, one must accept the fact that some attributes are said to be had by the Son that only deity alone, only adonai alone could or would possess, leads me to the belief that the Son is eternal, one in essence with the Father….
or else the Scripture contradicts itself in numerous places, and Jesus is proven to be a liar about who He is as to His very nature and what it is He can or cannot do, eg being eternal, being the creator (according to Paul), forgiving sins committed against God, knowing the hearts of all men, sharing in God's glory, etc etc …. these all indicate to me that there must be a plurality in the godhead. If there isn't, then we need to abandon the sayings of Jesus as He claims for Himself what no other person ever dared claim, and if they are not true, He is guilty oft he vilest blasphemy, just as He was charged with in His lifetime, that is, during the Son's incarnation or as the word literally states, His “enfleshment”, where, as Paul says, He takes on the form of a servant becoming a man. If He does this, then manifestly He existed prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
(Phil 2:5-8 NNAS) Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, {6} who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, {7} but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. {8} Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
blessings
Hi E
“quite simply really, for Jesus' being the Son of God in no way contradicts that He is also God the Son….. “
So God the Son is not the God that Jesus is the Son of?
Or is he really a son at all is he has never been begotten of God?Hi E,
Glad you are feeling much better today. To simplify things, as relates to your post on page 4 to me, do you mind answering the following questions?
1. Is YHWH able to send, authorize, empower and equip ANYONE to accomplish his purposes/will?
2. Are there such examples in scripture?
3. Did Jesus say that YHWH had sent, authorized, empowered and equipped him to do that will? (Not my will but thine be done?)
4. When such will [salvation] is accomplished by the power of God through his servants, would it be wrong to then say that God's will was done, or more specifically, that Salvation belongs to YHWH only? Will the fact that YHWH used someone else to do so make the statement less true?E-Maniac,
Yawnnnnn. You've written so many words which have impressed no one, just
to avoid what the Bible actually says…..that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.You admitted that our Lord Jesus has a God and that God the Father does not. Very good!
So they can't be co-equal especially since our Lord is no longer a man and STILL says he has a God
in his exalted state in heaven. Read Revelation 3:12 again if you don't remember.so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the GOD AND FATHER
of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Romans 15:6]Sorry but all your long winded posts can't make this scripture say anything else than
what it does. Logic and truth tells you that if YOU HAVE A GOD, you can't be God, period.yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom all things came and for whom we live and there is but ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
[1 Corn 8:6]Here again scripture is telling us the distinction between God our Father and His Son. See it says
ONE GOD, Theos and ONE LORD, kurios. Notice also all things came FROM God but THROUGH His Son to us. You can stand on your head and whistle Dixie all day but you can't make this scripture say anything other than what it does, that there is only ONE God the Father and One Lord, Chirst Jesus.
TO say Jesus is God is to deny his Lordship which the Father gave him. Jesus said he came from God and was sent by Him. Pal, nobody sends God anywhere!You wasted all your time writing a book here just to try to cover up the obvious. The trinity is a manmade doctrine found nowhere in scripture, however, Satan has claimed you with this lie so now you are fighting like mad to try to foist it on others. This is another sign that it is of Satan because people who made up and believed in the trinity KILLED anyone who would not accept it. This was happening up until the 1700's.
So do you think that is of God? If you do you are even further gone than I thought. You know, I don't got to Catholic message boards and try to force my beliefs down their throats. I know God
will reveal Himself to those who have a heart after Him.Therefore, why are you here? It is quite evident that Nick, Cubes, T8 and even myself prior to seminary know more of the Bible than you do. Your motives are the same as those who plagued the 1st century church, that is to use deception to cause strife and confusion. It's not happening here. Your wasting your time and only making yourself look all the more foolish for it.
Try another hobby!
Semmy
Hi E,
Was Jesus given authority to forgive sins?
Did Jesus give that authority to the disciples in Jn 20.23?“Great then!! It is settled, since the Bible clearly and unequivocally states that Yahweh and Yahweh only is the Savior, that if the Son claims the ability to forgive sins, to be the savior to His people, He must therefore have to be God in some way as well, otherwise, Jesus is guilty of blasphemy! “
My point exactly Cubes,
Who is the one who sends and who is the one who is sent?
I've researched and edited this article which even as long as it is, still does not take up the webspace
that E-Maniac's dronings have. This information can be verified by secular history and
the records kept by the Vatican. So this is not me speaking but history itself and it really makes sense.The Historical Development of the Trinity Doctrine
Most people who believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity claim that at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, all the church did was to officially declare a doctrine that had always been the teaching of the church. But if this is true, ask yourself why? Why would the church have to make any kind of official declaration about a doctrine that was supposed to be established from the beginning? There is no doctrine on whether Jesus resurrected or not. It was an established teaching. The idea that Jesus was God, was not. This is why the Catholic church required an official declaration to formally establish this as orthodox. It was a developing idea. It was not a teaching of the early church that had been established by the apostles. An important thing to note in support of this fact is that even at Nicaea when with Emperor Constantine’s help, they rammed this doctrine through as orthodox, they did not include the Holy Spirit as part of the formula. Again, why not? How could they forget that the trinity included the Holy Spirit? Because it was a developing idea, and at this point in time (Nicaea), all the church was willing to concede to was a binity. It would have to wait until the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to include the Holy Spirit in their formula and thus complete the trinity.
Tertullian of Carthage’s Letter:
An excellent proof that the Doctrine of the Trinity was not an established teaching of the early Christians is in a letter by one of the trinity’s greatest exponents, Tertullian of Carthage. Even though his understanding of it was that the Son was subordinate to the Father, which is contrary to today’s Doctrine of the Trinity, his writings were very influential in the development of this doctrine. He wrote about it profusely.
The fact that he believed the Son to be inferior to the Father can be easily seen in his letter Against Praxeas. In it, he states:
Chap. IX. “Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son.”
Chap. VII. “And while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father.”Again, ask yourself why was his view of the trinity different from today’s view if it has always been taught by the church? The reason is because it was a developing idea.
Tertullian himself gives us the greatest proof of the fact that it was a developing idea in the same letter. He states:
Chap. III. vv. 1. “The majority of believers, are STARTLED at the Dispensation (of the Three in One)…They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods…While the Greeks actually REFUSE to understand the oikonomia, or Dispensation” (of the Three in One).These are incredible statements! Tertullian is acknowledging that the majority of believers did not agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity. They accused him of being a polytheist. The Greeks (either Greek Christians or Christians that spoke Greek in different lands) refused altogether to believe him.
These statements are probably the best proofs that the Doctrine of the Trinity was not taught by the Apostles. If it had been taught by them, the majority of believers would have known about the Dispensation and would not have been startled by it, neither would they have accused him of worshipping two gods. This doctrine was something new, it was not the established belief of Christianity as you can see. It was starting to work itself out and trying to gain popularity, especially with Hellenized Christians. But it was not in the majority. In fact, it was very much in the minority.
The Doctrine of the Trinity was not an established teaching of the early Christians. It was a doctrine that developed and spread throughout Christianity between the 3rd and 4th centuries. There was much resistance to it from the majority of believers as Tertullian himself admits. But in the end, with the might of the Roman state to back up the state held Councils and the state imposed articles of faith, this new doctrine became the orthodox position of the church. Many thousands of people were killed by the state in the following centuries for their refusal to accept this doctrine as Biblical. Even as late as the 1700’s, people were still being burned at the stake for their denial of this man-made doctrine (Servetus was burned at the stake by Calvin for this reason). Does that sound like something that Jesus and his apostles would approve of? Did Jesus ever say,
“believe what I say or I will have you killed?” Of course not! But this was the only way to enforce this most unbiblical and most illogical pagan belief. If this doctrine is not the great apostasy that Jesus warned us about, then I do not know what else it could be.
This is an unpalatable aspect of history which is largely unknown, or
ignored, by the current generation of the Christians. ENDBlessings to all,
Semmy
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2006,02:05) Quote (Cubes @ July 23 2006,01:25) Ha ha! Thanks, guys. And to think we're just having a nice outing at the ball game! Never have so few put so many to flight by the word of God. It's useless to build on sand.
and this too is in error….for it is only 1, myself, who has, with the strength of the Lord and the power of His word, which is sharper then a two edged sword, have put all you Arians to flight, and have answered each.
so to stick with the baseball anaolgy, what has happened is you have just lost to a one man baseball team. Now THAT ought to be enough for you to never want to sing “take me out to the ball game” ever again….!!! lol 😉
blessings
No, E.Ha ha! Do you count yourself among the minority now?
I am not speaking about this forum, E! …
We are confident in God and in the truth of his word that we preach concerning his Christ. His truth has prevailed among a handful of minorities over the ages and reduced the almost two thousand year old Trinity pile of lies and confusion to ashes.
Is there any wonder then that as people start to read the bible more and more for themselves, many are coming to renounce the Trinity and embrace the one God, YHWH through his Christ? I hope and pray that the outcome of these dialogues would do the same for you and as many as hear us and receive the witness of the holy spirit concerning these things.
Many who loved God could not read. They attended Trinitarian churches and listened to Trinitarians but you know what, I believe that God used their seemingly simple understanding to confound the wise because I don't think many of them bought into this three in one business, except in so far as they acknowledged that there is a God who is the Father, he has a holy Spirit and has a son. Most reasonable people know that fathers and sons are different people, and that fathers precede their sons in age and glory. The people know, E. My grandmother who attended a presbytarian church all her life and dearly loved God, could not debate on this forum and I don't think has ever had a debate of any kind, but through that simple logic, never needed to be told that the Father is supremely God all by himself, and that Jesus Christ is his holy beloved son, and that the two are not the same. Or equal.
I don't think your numbers are what they seem to be (by the grace of God and for the sake of the elect). I believe as in the days of Elisha, that when your eyes are opened, you'd find that greater are those that surround believers in YHWH as the ONE God and Father of Christ Jesus, than those that claim that he is a triune being. Even little children know that too. Even dogs know that there is a leader of the pack, be it another dog or human. Hard core TEACHERS and DEFENDERS of the Trinity do not seem to know this.
Please let the word of God persuade you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2006,22:42) Hi E,
If you wish to be effective as a warrior for Christ, you must be reborn into the Son of God, and you must abide within the whole counsel of God and not stray into intellectual byways and myths like trinity theory.“for it is only 1, myself, who has, with the strength of the Lord and the power of His word, which is sharper then a two edged sword, have put all you Arians to flight, and have answered each.”
psst We are not Arians.
very well… does Unitarian better suite you?as far as the rest goes, I might just as well say that it is you who has strayed into the intellectual byways and myths that the Trinity is false. You have joined the Arians (at least in this point, the denial of the deity of Christ and the Trinity), and the Socinians, and many other fringe “cults” that have come in and out of fashion over the centuries. For it was often those who considered themselves to be the “intellectuals” who denied the Trinity, saying that since it did not make sense to them, it could not be true, as if they are the judge as to what God's nature could or could not be!
as to me being “reborn”, that has in fact happened, by grace through faith in the One who died for me, my blinded eyes were opened, for once I was blind, but now I see, and you are certainly not the judge of whether or not I am reborn or not.
blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 25 2006,21:05) Quote (Cubes @ July 23 2006,01:25) Ha ha! Thanks, guys. And to think we're just having a nice outing at the ball game! Never have so few put so many to flight by the word of God. It's useless to build on sand.
and this too is in error….for it is only 1, myself, who has, with the strength of the Lord and the power of His word, which is sharper then a two edged sword, have put all you Arians to flight, and have answered each.
so to stick with the baseball anaolgy, what has happened is you have just lost to a one man baseball team. Now THAT ought to be enough for you to never want to sing “take me out to the ball game” ever again….!!! lol 😉
blessings
So true…..
Hi,
Is your postbox the source of your mail?
Is the post office the source of your mail?
Or is the sender the real source?
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