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Hi E,
Hope this finds you well. Where were we? Are there anymore responses pending from me regarding your questions to me? If so, which? Thanks. BTW, I also wish you would answer my questions regarding: Forgiveness and Christ as the Everlasting Father of Isaiah 9:6.
1. The topic of forgiveness. I assert that Forgiveness is ULTIMATELY of YHWH because were it not so, Jesus would not have had to go to the cross for our redemption, and say to the Father, “not my will but yours be done.”
Moses received a testament from God as did Christ. Moses never claimed to be God Almighty and neither did Christ. Both testaments had to be made valid by blood; both offer forgiveness within their limits. The second testament is the better and without a doubt, Christ is the greater (than Moses) and also better sacrifice (Lamb of God).
Such are the scriptural facts.
The contrasts that I perceive are between earthly, natural, temporal and inferior things vs. heavenly, spiritual, eternal and superior things. But the models and prototypes do not change. They represent what they represent. Trinitarians have ran off claiming that the sacrificial lamb is the god who demands the sacrifice! Or that Moses…hmm hmmm… eh…that is to say, Christ… is YHWH! You've switched the truthful models and their representation to truth.
Back in the day when I was in grade school, we used to have a certain english exercise that went something like this though I can't recall the exact wording but it should sound familiar:
A car is to spoon as gasoline is to soup.
Meaning a car transports, as does a spoon, and gasoline gives energy as does soup. Simple concept to follow once you catch on. God has made this simple even for little children to grasp.
And yet, Trinitarians say the spoon and soup are now the farmer and/or chef, throwing a great big old wrench in the thing for everyone. Repent! repent! Enough already. The day is far spent that we should still be talking about this non-issue, if it is not meant to be a distraction from Satan. But as long as we have opportunity to exalt the name of YHWH besides whom is no other, and to raise the name of his son whom he sent to redeem the world, then all is not lost.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things *to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 FOR IF THE BLOOD OF BULLS and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every *precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which GOD HAS COMMANDED you.” 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Unless you can defend or refute this, then you must be willing to surrender the position that Jesus must be YHWH because he forgave sins since only YHWH has the authority to forgive. I hope we make some genuine progress here.
Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another– 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
So tell me again, do you really believe that scripture here is telling us that Christ in heaven, is the Almighty God who appears before Almighty God as a sacrifice. “Himself” refers to Christ, the Lamb of God, not Almighty God. And the earthly model accurately represents the heavenly, is what scripture is telling us here. So to the extent that Moses is not God, (but is made as God Exodus 7:1), so too is Christ not God but is made as God (Hebrews 1:8-9).2. Since we agree that the Father and son are distinct, I also need your explanation as to why Jesus is referred to as the everalasting father in Is 9:6.
Hi ,
Evidence for the trinity theory cannot be quality evidence.
It relies solely on the derivations of men from scripture and is not ever taught anywhere in scripture.
Circumstantial at best it should not be used as a basis for a decision that involves life or death.
And our salvation is a matter of life and death.Why do men lay another foundation?
Because they love not the truth, but prefer to draw men unto themselves.Unfortunately for them, all works not in the name of Jesus are done in vain. Only works on the true foundation shall receive a just and/or good reward.
Works done in the name of another or their own name are worthless, even destructive.
Jesus said that a cup of water given in his name shall not lose its reward.
Paul said that men would rise up from among our own and draw men unto themselves.
2000 or so years later the wise can see the fruits of those who work in their own name or the name of another (that isn't Jesus Christ).
It is a foolish man who continues to promote the folly of division and denominationalism, which are the fruits.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Aug. 03 2006,11:40)
A corpse is a dead person/soul.
A dead person is a dead soul.
Right now within tombs & coffins are dead souls.
What one buries or cremates is a dead person/soulJews in the OT were not allowed to touch dead souls … (subtly translated dead body)
So a person according to the Hebrew Bible, dead or alive, is a soul/nepheshAgain, in the Bible, 'person=soul'
To touch or see or speak to a living person, is to touch, see & speak to a living soul.
To touch a dead person is to touch a dead soul.It was Greek philosophy & Platonism that taught that a soul is some ethereal, immortal, incorporeal part of man.
The Scriptures teach no such thing.See for yourself …
(Lev 21:11) Neither shall he go in to any dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul], nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;
(Num 9:6-7) And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul] of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: 7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul] of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of YAHWEH in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
(Num 9:10) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul], or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto YAHWEH.
(Num 19:11) He that toucheth the dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul] of any man shall be unclean seven days.
(Num 19:13) Whosoever toucheth the dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul] of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of YAHWEH; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
(Num 19:16) And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul], or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
(Hag 2:13) Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body [Heb. nephesh=soul] touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
Hi everyoneI think this post of Adam's could use some emphasis. The footnote to Genesis 2:23 in the NET Bible agrees:
“The Hebrew term נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh, “being”) is often translated “soul,” but the word usually refers to the whole person. The phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה (nefesh khayyah, “living being”) is used of both animals and human beings (see 1:20, 24, 30; 2:19).”
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm
So 'nephesh' just means 'person' – easy, it's not rocket science.
———————————————————
There are also a whole bunch of verses that very plainly teach that people are completely unconcious when they die – sheol and hades both just mean the grave, and dead actually means dead, contrary to the beliefs of most Christians.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psalms 6:5)
While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being (Psalms 146:2)
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence (Psalms 115:17)
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth (Isaiah 38:18-19)
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish (Psalms 146:3-4)
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one spirit; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
Really, is there anything tricky about any of that?
God be with you all
Sam
Hi Sammo,
So what did Jesus mean in Mat 10.28
when he told us not to fear men who could
KILL THE BODY
only but to fear God who can
DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL
in the Lake of Fire?If a dead person is a dead soul then it seems a rather strange comment to make.
Surely in your view when a person dies and their body rots away then neither men nor any other influence would matter?
I hope you will not speak of losing the POTENTIAL LIFE they would have had as it is too old and rusty.Hey Cubes… sorry for the delay in getting back to you.. its hard to keep track of all the threads, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner…
First, I am glad to see that you agree that Jesus must be God according to Isa. 9:6.
Re the phrase “everlasting father:
“The father of the age. The Greek translator has added μέλλοντος future;143 and, in my opinion, the translation is correct, for it denotes eternity, unless it be thought better to view it as denoting “perpetual duration,” or “an endless succession of ages,” lest any one should improperly limit it to the heavenly life, which is still hidden from us. (Col_3:3.) True, the Prophet includes it, and even declares that Christ will come, in order to bestow immortality on his people; but as believers, even in this world, pass from death to life, (Joh_5:24; 1Jo_3:14,) this world is embraced by the eternal condition of the Church.The name Father is put for Author, because Christ preserves the existence of his Church through all ages, and bestows immortality on the body and on the individual members. Hence we conclude how transitory our condition is, apart from him; for, granting that we were to live for a very long period after the ordinary manner of men, what after all will be the value of our long life? We ought, therefore, to elevate our minds to that blessed and everlasting life, which as yet we see not, but which we possess by hope and faith. (Rom_8:25.)” (Calvin)
“The everlasting Father – The Chaldee renders this expression, ‘The man abiding forever.’ The Vulgate, ‘The Father of the future age.’ Lowth, ‘The Father of the everlasting age.’ Literally, it is the Father of eternity, עד אבי 'ĕby ‛ad. The word rendered “everlasting,” עד ‛ad, properly denotes “eternity,” and is used to express “forever;” see Psa_9:6, Psa_9:19; Psa_19:10. It is often used in connection with עולם ‛ôlâm, thus, עולם ועד vā‛ed ‛ôlâm, “forever and ever;” Psa_10:16; Psa_21:5; Psa_45:7. The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses – as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor. The phrase may either mean the same as the Eternal Father, and the sense will be, that the Messiah will not, as must be the ease with an earthly king, however excellent, leave his people destitute after a short reign, but will rule over them and bless them forever (Hengstenberg); or it may be used in accordance with a custom usual in Hebrew and in Arabic, where he who possesses a thing is called the father of it.
Thus, the father of strength means strong; the father of knowledge, intelligent; the father of glory, glorious; the father of goodness, good; the father of peace, peaceful. According to this, the meaning of the phrase, the Father of eternity, is properly eternal. The application of the word here is derived from this usage. The term Father is not applied to the Messiah here with any reference to the distinction in the divine nature, for that word is uniformly, in the Scriptures, applied to the first, not to the second person of the Trinity. But it is used in reference to durations, as a Hebraism involving high poetic beauty. lie is not merely represented as everlasting, but he is introduced, by a strong figure, as even the Father of eternity. as if even everlasting duration owed itself to his paternity. There could not be a more emphatic declaration of strict and proper eternity. It may be added, that this attribute is often applied to the Messiah in the New Testament; Joh_8:58; Col_1:17; Rev_1:11, Rev_1:17-18; Heb_1:10-11; Joh_1:1-2.”Hope that helps… blessings
Hi sammo,
So Matt 10.28
” 28″Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather (A)fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in (B)hell”
Death then does not destroy the WHOLE PERSON??Quote (epistemaniac @ July 21 2006,20:54) now wait a minute… what does the Bible say? (Isa 43:11 NASB) “I, even I, am the LORD; And there is no savior besides Me.”
No trace here of saving through anyone else…. and yet in Mattew Jesus is said to be the Savior, saving His people from their sins….. so YHWH is the only Savior, and Jesus is the only savior…. which one is true?
well bretheren, dont confused yourself YHWH is one of the olden name that man named to the Lord, in OT God allowed his people to call him in the names they want, but actually it was ended when Jesus was been Born, it is true that YHWH is the savior But the time has come that YHWH revealed himself, in the name of JESUS, Jesus said EXCEPT YE BELIEVED THAT IAM HE, YOU WILL DIE ON YOUR SINS. IAM HE here refers to IAM THAT IAM. it means that the GOd of ADMA, Is the same God we served right now, and the name is Jesus.you qouted a scripture that proves also the oness of God. Verywell!!!
Matt 1:21 cannot be used as a proof of trinity..
because it never tells us about trinity but the birth of Jesus Christ:)
yes i know, hes the son of God, do i say hes not? i;ve said he is. my point is that you cannot use the matt1:21 because jesus is the only image of the invincible God.
well, let me ask you do you believe that the father, son and the holyghost are persons?
Yes Trinitarians on one hand say that Jesus is the son of God and on the other they say that he is also the God that he is the son of.
Yet scripture shows us clearly that God is the Father. That is why Jesus is called the son of God, because he is the son and God is the Father.
It is simple and God not only revealed it in scritprue but also demonstrated the Father son relationship in nature and humanity.
Yet it seems that scripture and nature are not good enough witnesses for some.
Quote (wind_slasher52 @ Aug. 28 2006,08:11) yes i know, hes the son of God, do i say hes not? i;ve said he is. my point is that you cannot use the matt1:21 because jesus is the only image of the invincible God. well, let me ask you do you believe that the father, son and the holyghost are persons?
Hi WS,
Saying Jesus Christ is the Son of God does not mean that you really believe he is.
We have many here who say
he is the Son
by appellation,
by decree,
by only his conception in Mary
but few seem to believe he is the Monogenes son who was sent into the world.The Father and the Son are separate beings the son coming from the Father, who filled him with His spirit.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 29 2006,01:30) when Jesus says “when you have seen me, you have seen the Father”, what did He mean? Was He lying?
Jesus is not the Father. Rather he is like him.The point is that God is invisible. So if you want to know what God is like, you look to the visible representation of him.
Similarly, we can look to creation itself and understand something of the God who made it.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 29 2006,01:58) why t8, there hasn't been any avoidance of your simple question. Rather, you are unaware of the ramifications of your assumptions, if Jesus is not “good” in an absolute sense, then He was not worthy to die for the sins of His Bride, and further, if you deny this, you are blaspheming. And if this is the case, you need to be worried about the state of your soul indeed. as far as to asking me whether I am “good” I would say no, I am a sinner saved by grace, and possess no inherent attributes that would commend me to God….
blessings
First off scripture says that we must be good.
And we know that we are sinners, so we our goodness is given to us by God and then we are to act in accordance with that goodness.Matthew 12:35
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.Luke 6:45
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.Acts 11:24
He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.The point is that we are good not by our own means but by the grace of God first.
Now Jesus said that no one was good except God.
He wasn't saying I am God and therefore I am good. Rather he was saying that only God is good.
Even Jesus receives all that he has from his Father. He said this himself quite clearly:
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.All good comes from the Father:
James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 29 2006,07:11) Quote (wind_slasher52 @ Aug. 28 2006,08:11) yes i know, hes the son of God, do i say hes not? i;ve said he is. my point is that you cannot use the matt1:21 because jesus is the only image of the invincible God. well, let me ask you do you believe that the father, son and the holyghost are persons?
Hi WS,
Saying Jesus Christ is the Son of God does not mean that you really believe he is.
We have many here who say
he is the Son
by appellation,
by decree,
by only his conception in Mary
but few seem to believe he is the Monogenes son who was sent into the world.The Father and the Son are separate beings the son coming from the Father, who filled him with His spirit.
I certainly wouldn't mind believing as you do, Nick, if you had a solid scriptural base from which you get this theory?My Son of God that I believe in is described in the gospels explicitly. He was conceived, and he was born. He was given the name Jesus. Peter called him, “….the Son of the Living God.” This is the Jesus I follow.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2006,21:12) Yes Trinitarians on one hand say that Jesus is the son of God and on the other they say that he is also the God that he is the son of. Yet scripture shows us clearly that God is the Father. That is why Jesus is called the son of God, because he is the son and God is the Father.
It is simple and God not only revealed it in scritprue but also demonstrated the Father son relationship in nature and humanity.
Yet it seems that scripture and nature are not good enough witnesses for some.
Amen, t8!The Father/son relationship is as natural as can be for the heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus was conceived and then given birth. It was the first time God had laid eyes on his boy! And to show his excitment, he didn't hand out cigars – no, of course not – he sent a host of angels to proclaim the birth in the sky! What a site that must have been.
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