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Quote He's also God over creation (Romans 9:5). Don't know how many other gods you can say that about. Ro 9:5—Gr., καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων, θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας· ἀμήν
(kai ex hon ho khri·stos′ to ka·ta′ sar′ka, ho on e·pi′ pan′ton, The·os′ eu·lo·ge·tos′ eis tous ai·o′nas; a·men′)
1934 “and from whom by physical descent The Riverside New
the Christ came. God who is over Testament, Boston
all be blessed through the ages! and New York.
Amen.”1935 “and theirs too (so far as natural A New Translation
descent goes) is the Christ. of the Bible, by
(Blessed for evermore be the God James Moffatt,
who is over all! Amen.)” New York and London.1950 “and from whom Christ sprang New World Translation
according to the flesh: God who of the Christian Greek
is over all be blest forever. Scriptures, Brooklyn.
Amen.”1952 “and of their race, according to Revised Standard
the flesh, is the Christ. God who Version, New York.
is over all be blessed for ever.
Amen.”1961 “and from them, in natural The New English
descent, sprang the Messiah. May Bible, Oxford and
God, supreme above all, be blessed Cambridge.
for ever! Amen.”1966 “and Christ, as a human being, Today’s English
belongs to their race. May God, Version, American Bible
who rules over all, be praised Society, New York.
for ever! Amen.”1970 “and from them came the Messiah The New American
(I speak of his human origins). Bible, New York and
Blessed forever be God who is over London.
all! Amen.”These translations take ὁ ὤν (ho on) as the beginning of an independent sentence or clause referring to God and pronouncing a blessing upon him for the provisions he made. Here and in Ps 67:19 LXX the predicate εὐλογητός (eu·lo·ge·tos′, “blessed”) occurs after the subject θεός (The·os′, “God”).—See Ps 68:19 ftn.
In his work A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, seventh ed., Andover, 1897, p. 551, G. B. Winer says that “when the subject constitutes the principal notion, especially when it is antithetical to another subject, the predicate may and must be placed after it, cf. Ps. lxvii. 20 Sept [Ps 67:19 LXX]. And so in Rom. ix. 5, if the words ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητός etc. [ho on e·pi′ pan′ton The·os′ eu·lo·ge·tos′ etc.] are referred to God, the position of the words is quite appropriate, and even indispensable.”
A detailed study of the construction in Ro 9:5 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 332-438. On pp. 345, 346 and 432 he says: “But here ὁ ὤν [ho on] is separated from ὁ χριστός [ho khri·stos′] by τὸ κατὰ σάρκα [to ka·ta′ sar′ka], which in reading must be followed by a pause,—a pause which is lengthened by the special emphasis given to the κατὰ σάρκα [ka·ta′ sar′ka] by the τό [to]; and the sentence which precedes is complete in itself grammatically, and requires nothing further logically; for it was only as to the flesh that Christ was from the Jews. On the other hand, as we have seen (p. 334), the enumeration of blessings which immediately precedes, crowned by the inestimable blessing of the advent of Christ, naturally suggests an ascription of praise and thanksgiving to God as the Being who rules over all; while a doxology is also suggested by the ᾿Αμήν [A·men′] at the end of the sentence. From every point of view, therefore, the doxological construction seems easy and natural. . . . The naturalness of a pause after σάρκα [sar′ka] is further indicated by the fact that we find a point after this word in all our oldest MSS. that testify in the case,—namely, A, B, C, L, . . . I can now name, besides the uncials A, B, C, L, . . . at least twenty-six cursives which have a stop after σάρκα, the same in general which they have after αἰῶνας [ai·o′nas] or ᾿Αμήν [A·men′].”
Therefore, Ro 9:5 ascribes praise and thanksgiving to God. This scripture does not identify Jehovah God with Jesus Christ.
–Appendix 6D of NWT.Quote He's also the God we're called to worship (Hebrews 1:6) (proskunein, which in Rev 22:9 we're told only to do to God). I don't know how many other gods you can say that about. Tim 2, there is a thread about worship.
But, simply put, the word proskyneo is applied to humans as well as Jesus and God and simply in it's most basic meaning, conveys the thought of bowing down.
It can mean worship, but without question, WITHOUT QUESTION, it often doesn't mean this.
The translator has to decide how to render that word, proskyneo. And if they are a trinitarian, they will render it “worship” were it applies to Jesus.So, this really proves nothing, that the translator of your Bible translated it that way.
Hi David,
Thanks for the lesson on Romans 9:5. I don't know Greek so I can't respond. I would encourage you to keep studying it though, and listen to the reasoning of Trinitarians with knowledge of Greek.
I do know that the same Greek word is used in Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 22:9. I also know that Hebrews 1:6 is quoting Psalm 97:7, which is definitely telling us to worship YHWH.
Please show me where proskunein is used with reference to someone other than YHWH.
Tim
Quote I do know that the same Greek word is used in Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 22:9. I also know that Hebrews 1:6 is quoting Psalm 97:7, which is definitely telling us to worship YHWH. Please show me where proskunein is used with reference to someone other than YHWH.
I have spent a lot of time with the word proskyneo and it's hebrew equivalent. I'll find the thread for this, and we can discuss it there.
Quote I do know that the same Greek word is used in Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 22:9. Yes, it is the exact same greek word, and that word has a few meanings, of which the translator based on his bias or based on his understanding of the rest of the scripatures has to determine which way to translate it. Yes, they are exactly the same word in Greek. But, that word has several shades of meaning. I'll find the thread.
Quote (david @ April 04 2007,07:44) Quote He's also the God we're called to worship (Hebrews 1:6) (proskunein, which in Rev 22:9 we're told only to do to God). I don't know how many other gods you can say that about. Tim 2, there is a thread about worship.
But, simply put, the word proskyneo is applied to humans as well as Jesus and God and simply in it's most basic meaning, conveys the thought of bowing down.
It can mean worship, but without question, WITHOUT QUESTION, it often doesn't mean this.
The translator has to decide how to render that word, proskyneo. And if they are a trinitarian, they will render it “worship” were it applies to Jesus.So, this really proves nothing, that the translator of your Bible translated it that way.
DavidThis is a play on words and you know it.
If you can make claim that “proskuneo” in context of Yeshua being worshipped also means, bow down, and because of this it can not mean to worship Jesus,
Then how can you make claim to the word “theos” in context of the Father as being God, when “theos” also means, magistrates and judges and is used for Jesus and Satan?
Its the context that shows that Christ is being worshipped and not once does he redirect or rebuke for what could be an act of Idolatry.
The same word “proskuneo” is applied to the Father also, does that mean they were not worshipping the Father?
Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship ( proskuneo) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship (proskuneo) him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskuneo) him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth.Jesus knew exactly what the word “proskuneo” meant.
Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (proskuneo) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (proskuneo) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Here we see the word used toward the messenger and was was forbidden and then told to worship God.
Dont you think Jesus would have done the same.
Tim2 brings up a valid question.
Is there a scripture where the word is used for anyone else and not discouraged other than Yeshua and the Father?
Quote The same word “proskuneo” is applied to the Father also, does that mean they were not worshipping the Father? No, obviously not. But I never said this, did I? What I DID SAY is that that word is also applied to humans and it's used at other places where “worship” is obviously not what the Bible is referring to. (See Mark 15:19)
Quote This is a play on words and you know it.
It being a “play on words” is a lie and you know it.It's not a play on words, but rather, it's looking what the word actually means, as opposed to what you want it to mean or what your translators bias caused him to want it to mean.
It's knowing the defition of the word and ALL the ways it's used in the Bible to understand the actual meaning of the word.
Quote If you can make claim that “proskuneo” in context of Yeshua being worshipped also means, bow down, and because of this it can not mean to worship Jesus, Then how can you make claim to the word “theos” in context of the Father as being God, when “theos” also means, magistrates and judges and is used for Jesus and Satan?
It doesn't “also mean bown down.” This is the primary meaning of the word. And “theos” never means magistrates or judges, but that word is applied to the judges of Israel, Satan, and Jesus.
(It's hard to defend what the Bible says when you filter your arguments wich confusion that isn't true. Please be more accurate.)Quote Its the context that shows that Christ is being worshipped and not once does he redirect or rebuke for what could be an act of Idolatry.
He doesn't rebuke it or redirect it, because REMEMBER, THAT WORD HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING, and what they were doing, (proskyneo) was perfectly fine, given that that word esentially means to bown down before. It's true, it most often conveys the idea of worship, but the actual meaning of the word is to bow down and it certainly doesn't always mean worship.Quote Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship ( proskuneo) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship (proskuneo) him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskuneo) him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth.Jesus knew exactly what the word “proskuneo” meant.
Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (proskuneo) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (proskuneo) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Here we see the word used toward the messenger and was was forbidden and then told to worship God.
Dont you think Jesus would have done the same.
I feel you are missing the whole concept or point. Jesus didn't do the same because when they honouring him in that way, it wasn't “worship” it was obeisance (one of the meanings of the word “proskyneo.”) Remember?
In the one case, what they were doing was wrong, so it clearly was worship towards someone other than God. Hence, worship was directed towards God.
In the second instance, where it's Jesus, what was being done wasn't worship, it was one of the other definitions of that word.david
WJ,
David identifies three places in the Septuagint and NT where proskunein is used other than with Jesus and YHWH: Genesis 23:7, 1 Kings 1:22, and Matthew 18:26. So I will concede that it can mean to kneel before a king or to show respect. But it obviously also can mean worship, and as Revelation 22:9 says, worship that belongs to God alone.
Tim
Quote So I will concede that it can mean to kneel before a king or to show respect. But it obviously also can mean worship, and as Revelation 22:9 says, worship that belongs to God alone. Right, and so it is a very week argument to say that Jesus is worshiped, when one understands that that is simply how the translator of that Bible decided to translate a word that has meanings other than worship.
I often find it turns circular. Oh, but Jesus is God, so he should be worshipped. Since Jesus is clearly worshipped, he must be God. Since Jesus is God, he should be worshipped. Since he's worshipped, how could he not be God?….
Well, David, some times it obviously does mean worship, as in Hebrews 1:6. So then it clearly means that Jesus is God.
Quote Well, David, some times it obviously does mean worship, as in Hebrews 1:6. So then it clearly means that Jesus is God. Could you please explain why it is “obvious” to you that this is the case?
It's not obvious to all Bible translators, for example:
“let them bow before him.” (YLT)
“pay homage to.” (NEB)Tim2 are you carring Jesus around on your shoulders and setting him in a place?
Isa 46:5 ¶ To whom will ye liken me, and make [me] equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 46:6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, [and] hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
Isa 46:7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, [one] shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
Isa 46:8 ¶ Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me,
Psalm 97:7 (New International Version)
All who worship images are put to shame,those who boast in idols— worship him, all you gods!Psalm 97:7 (New American Standard Bible)
Let all those be ashamed who serve (A)graven images, Who boast themselves of (B)idols; ÂWorship Him, all you gods.Psalm 97:7 (Amplified Bible)
Let all those be put to shame who serve graven images, who boast in idols. Fall prostrate before Him, all you gods.Hi Tim2.
I went to Biblegate and grabbed 3 of the first 4 Bible's on there. Notice the differences:
In the first part of the verse: worship/serve/serve.
In the second part: worship/worship/prostrate.
The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.
Bible translators must decide how to render that word as well. Is it possible that because those who translated some Bibles believed in the trinity, that they may have been influenced by these beliefs? I think it's entirely possible.Isa 40:18 ¶ To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.
Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 ¶ Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that [are] far from righteousness:Gods prexistant elected Man to be over kings.. Kings Kings
Isa 41:2 Who raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow.Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.
Satans seat holds fast to the name of Jesus also
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.Balaam worship of heavenly hosts in place as God; causing the the children to be cursed to death failing to reach God
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Charity,
You might want to check out the jealousy thread. I don't see how YHWH could allow His book to end with an appeal to someone else.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Rev 22
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Jesus is LORD
His Father is God
Do not add to the revelation
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